Referees can't do friendlies for USYSA teams?

[Attacking Minded]

This weekend one USYSA affiliated team wanted to forfeit it's game to another and the referee stated that if one team were to forfeit then he would not be able to do the center for the teams if they shared pinnies and played a mixed friendly. He stated this was for insurance reasons.

Obviously the USYSA and the USSF are different organizations and I was surprised to hear that the USYSA could prevent a USSF referee from doing a friendly. Can the USYSA take insurance away from teams and thereby preventing USSF certified referees from doing a game?

[kevbrunton]

First off, it's not a USYSA vs. USSF thing. USYSA is the YOUTH part (call it subsidiary if you will) of USSF. Likewise, USASA is the ADULT part.

What I suspect that he was talking about is that the liability insurance that is provided to referees via their USSF registration only covers them in USSF SANCTIONED matches.

So, for example, if you worked matches for a league that was not sanctioned or affiliated with any of the various governing / sanctioning bodies, and someone got hurt and sued the referee for failing to provide adequate control (or some such thing), then the USSF insurance wouldn't be of any benefit.

However, this is the first I've heard of friendlies between two sanctioned / certified USYSA teams being considered an unsanctioned match. If that's the case, then I along with many of my fellow referees have worked a lot of unsanctioned matches.

My son's team has already played some friendlies with other teams and I have also refereed a match between a USYSA U19 team and a USASA adult team. We've also got some matches between a dual registered USYSA / Y-League U17 team and a couple PDL teams. I wonder about some of those matches.

[Attacking Minded]

However, this is the first I've heard of friendlies between two sanctioned / certified USYSA teams being considered an unsanctioned match. If that's the case, then I along with many of my fellow referees have worked a lot of unsanctioned matches.

Should referees now stop doing those games? If they are not a part of a league sanctioned game must a USSF referee excuse himself?

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by Attacking Minded
However, this is the first I've heard of friendlies between two sanctioned / certified USYSA teams being considered an unsanctioned match. If that's the case, then I along with many of my fellow referees have worked a lot of unsanctioned matches.

Should referees now stop doing those games? If they are not a part of a league sanctioned game must a USSF referee excuse himself?
Well, first of all, I'd get some definitive word that this guy is right. It doesn't sound right to me.

On Tuesday evening, I will be seeing our SRA and a lawyer in our group that pays a lot of attention to these kinds of details for our association. If we don't have an answer here by then, I'll ask them about it. But we're probably going to need to get this answered by USSF.

[whistleblowerusa]

Originally posted by Attacking Minded
This weekend one USYSA affiliated team wanted to forfeit it's game to another and the referee stated that if one team were to forfeit then he would not be able to do the center for the teams if they shared pinnies and played a mixed friendly. He stated this was for insurance reasons.

Obviously the USYSA and the USSF are different organizations and I was surprised to hear that the USYSA could prevent a USSF referee from doing a friendly. Can the USYSA take insurance away from teams and thereby preventing USSF certified referees from doing a game?
Your insurance is for anything related to official USSF events. If the game was assigned by a registered USSF asignor then it would normally be covered. This is only the insurance for the official. The teams have thier own insurance.
If you are assigned to a game and you show up and one team cannot field enough players and the game becomes a forfeit, you do not have to stay and work any scrimmage or "friendly" if you do not want to. You were assigned to the game that is now a forfeit, you have fulfilled your assignment, nothing more is expected from you. However, if you stay and work that game, you cannot wear your badge and if something happens you will not have any backing to support you if needed.
If you are a member of the High School Federation check thier insurance. I beleive that they will cover you for this and just about anything else that you do as an official, high school or not.

[whipple]

Whistle,

My understanding is that the liability insurance affiliated referees receive through USSF covers all USSF sanctioned events as we follow the Laws and policies of USSF, most of which will be found in your Referee Administrative Handbook, as excerpted from the Federation Policy Manual.

There is no mention, to my knowledge, that we would not be coverd for a friendly, a scrimmage, or any other officiating of two affiliated teams. Quite the contrary, I believe we are encouraged to do so.

The only exclusions I know of are that we are not covered for non-affiliated (ie High School, College) and outlaw leagues, and I have been told, that we might not be covered if we used a dual, since the DSC, even with club assistants, is all that is recognized, but to my knowledge this has not been tested.

NFHS, as a note does not provide any insurance, though you may have it separately through your local board or HS referee association. Mine, for example, does not, so I have to secure it separately, if i want it.

Sherman

[whistleblowerusa]

Originally posted by whipple
Whistle,

My understanding is that the liability insurance affiliated referees receive through USSF covers all USSF sanctioned events as we follow the Laws and policies of USSF, most of which will be found in your Referee Administrative Handbook, as excerpted from the Federation Policy Manual.

There is no mention, to my knowledge, that we would not be coverd for a friendly, a scrimmage, or any other officiating of two affiliated teams. Quite the contrary, I believe we are encouraged to do so.

The only exclusions I know of are that we are not covered for non-affiliated (ie High School, College) and outlaw leagues, and I have been told, that we might not be covered if we used a dual, since the DSC, even with club assistants, is all that is recognized, but to my knowledge this has not been tested.

NFHS, as a note does not provide any insurance, though you may have it separately through your local board or HS referee association. Mine, for example, does not, so I have to secure it separately, if i want it.

Sherman

whipple,
A sanctioned game is just that. A game assigned by a USSF assignor is sanctioned. A friendly that is two teams or one team getting together on thier own to play and asking whether you would officiate is not a sanctioned game nor an offficial event.
There is a great insurance policy that you receive as a member of NFHS there always has been. Check into it.

[deep-throat]

Guys,

the following is currently posted on the USSF website (under the "ask a referee" section). I have cut and pasted it verbatim below. Esssentially both Whistle and Whipple are right, and both are wrong (sort of). The reply says that we may not be covered by liability insurance, but as the teams/players are affiliated we can still wear the USSF badge. I guess it comes down to whether you want to run the risk or not of doing the game, but if you chose to, you CAN wear the badge. The q&a posted is:
"
"Ask A Soccer Referee" - 2003 Archive

Submit your questions via e-mail to askareferee@ussoccer.org.

Go to "Ask A Referee" archive index

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEARING THE USSF BADGE

Question:
Last weekend I was assigned to a sanctioned game in a sanctioned youth tournament. I showed up for the game along with one team, while the other team was a no-show. After waiting the appropriate time, the one team asked me if I would stay and officiate them in a friendly 7v7 scrimmage, so they could warm up and get prepared for their next game. I did so. During a break, a tournament official stopped by and asked me to remove my USSF Referee badge. His reasoning was that this was not a sanctioned game. My response to him was that all the players were appropriately registered and thus I should keep the badge on; however, I did remove it.

Can you provide an official guidance on this issue, or give me help in finding out what it is?

Answer (February 26, 2003):
Despite the fact that both teams and the tournament were affiliated with U.S. Youth Soccer, the game itself was not. Because the game was not sanctioned, the referee may not be covered by USSF liability insurance, and that is a point that should be considered by every referee who is asked to officiate a non-affiliated game.

A badge may or may not be worn in such a scrimmage. The referee has a right to wear the USSF referee badge as long as he is registered for the current year and is not doing an unaffiliated or outlaw competition. In this particular case, it was a scrimmage, but the players were affiliated. "

[whipple]

Originally posted by whistleblowerusa
whipple,
A sanctioned game is just that. A game assigned by a USSF assignor is sanctioned. A friendly that is two teams or one team getting together on thier own to play and asking whether you would officiate is not a sanctioned game nor an offficial event.
There is a great insurance policy that you receive as a member of NFHS there always has been. Check into it.

Whistle,

You are correct. That is something to keep in mind.

As for the insurance, I had the NFOA general liabilty coverage for a couple of years. I think it cost about $15 a year as part of the membership, but the coverage was really narrow with a lot of exceptions. Is this the one you are referring to?

[kevbrunton]

I was at a meeting last night and asked our SRA this question. He said that friendlies or games not part of a regular sanctioned competition would not be covered under the USSF liability insurance.

That's an eye opener.

[pkCrouse]

Originally posted by whistleblowerusa
...There is a great insurance policy that you receive as a member of NFHS there always has been. Check into it. If I'm not mistaken, most of those great features of the policy have now virtually disappeared as a result of 911 and the stock market meltdown. The coverage we obtained this year through PIAA is drastically reduced from what it was in previous years. We still have the basic liability coverage, but the limits have been changed and they no longer include things like "error and omission" coverage for the officers of the chapter, etc... Also, coverage for things like lost game fees due to our injury is gone.

[gildarkevin]

It's actually been pretty well known around our parts in the DC area that if the game is a forfeit, you are not to do it b/c of liability concerns. I think most of the refs know that rule (above the real laws of the game in some cases) b/c it allows them to make a quick buck.

The lesser known fact to many is that you subject yourself to the same liability if, say, an assistant doesn't show and you and one assistant were, for some reason, to decide to do the game as a 2-man system ala H.S. Federation.

Because of this, after the sniper attacks last year, the biggest youth league in MD put out a special directive that essentially said that even in the case of forfeits, the game was to be considered a "official exhibition" and still sanctioned as a match. This was to make sure all the kids had a full chance to play with referees after missing 3 full weeks.

[pacref]

What constitutes a sanctioned match.
Two U14 teams, registered with their state, playing a friendly match assigned by a registered assignor would not be sanctioned?
A scrimmage between two teams from the same club would not be sanctioned?

I may be reading too much into the posts, but doesn't this seem contrary to the goal to expand the sport. Friendly intra league matches are, in some cases, the only way to get playing time out side of touraments.

[IASocFan]

I know my opinions are counter to our great legal minds, but I volunteered to be out there for the good of the game and my own conditioning. Unless there are circumstances to prevent it - like weather or other commitments; if there are enough players for some type of game, I'll ref who ever wants to play.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by pacref
What constitutes a sanctioned match.
Two U14 teams, registered with their state, playing a friendly match assigned by a registered assignor would not be sanctioned?
A scrimmage between two teams from the same club would not be sanctioned?

I may be reading too much into the posts, but doesn't this seem contrary to the goal to expand the sport. Friendly intra league matches are, in some cases, the only way to get playing time out side of touraments.
According to our SRA, neither of the two examples above would be considered sanctioned matches from the standpoint of you being covered by the USSF liability policy. You have a better leg to stand on in the first one because of the assignment being given by a registered assigner. But he said if it's not part of a sanctioned COMPETITION, then it's not a sanctioned match.

As far as your sentiment goes, I completely agree -- the kids need to be playing more. See my response to Tom below.


Originally posted by IASocFan
I know my opinions are counter to our great legal minds, but I volunteered to be out there for the good of the game and my own conditioning. Unless there are circumstances to prevent it - like weather or other commitments; if there are enough players for some type of game, I'll ref who ever wants to play.
I agree with you Tom -- I do these kind of games all the time. I get a lot of calls for these because I was a coach for years and now that I'm a referee, a lot of my coach friends call me to do these games.

I'll still do them, but now I'm aware that I'm kind of on my own when it comes to liability. I am checking into what I need to do to be covered -- I don't want to risk my family's well being is some IDIOT decides to sue me.

[gildarkevin]

Originally posted by IASocFan
I know my opinions are counter to our great legal minds, but I volunteered to be out there for the good of the game and my own conditioning. Unless there are circumstances to prevent it - like weather or other commitments; if there are enough players for some type of game, I'll ref who ever wants to play.

I think most referees on this board feel the same way -- I know I do.

Often what I'll do is then tell the players that we'll do a shorter type game and, if possible, I'll use the extra time to discuss aspects of refereeing with them -- either as we're going along or by giving them time at the end to ask questions about things that may have popped up during their scrimmage or in general.

[Attacking Minded]

So we can’t play friendlies because we can’t get a qualified referees to officiate.

That's sad.