World Cup - US vs. Italy Post Match Continued [R]

[Chicago1871]

Continued from the original thread (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371176&page=36).

[kjksccr]

BTW, I happened to be with a German to translate the postgame discussion with Franz Beckenbauer and Giovanni Trappatoni on German television.

Trappatoni was cautious in what he said but generally commented that Italy was nervous and under pressure. He didn't say much about the U.S.

They also have a referee on the program (some Swiss guy) and asked him about the calls. He backed up the ref and said they were correct. Then they asked Beckbenbauer what he thought. He said something like (with respect to Mastro's tackle) "This is an emotional game and physical. If you don't want contact play basketball." It was classic.

[rohara30]

Sorry, but I haven't been to the computer since the game, and its time to vent:

1) To any Italian fans reading this - I'd tell you maybe you should enter your men's team in the women's World Cup in '08, but I think they may be better off trying out for the Italian Diving Team for the Olympics. What a bunch of little girls. I knew this going in. Soon as I saw the draw months ago, I said "Great. Here we go." Then less than 30 seconds in, there's already a dive. How you can cheer for a bunch of guys that just roll over like a bunch of sissies, I'll never know. Props to Claudio Reyna, who came right out and called them a bunch of great divers.

2) The refs knew this was Italy, and they knew Italy gets its goals off set pieces called from diving fouls. And they still called all of them until the last 15 minutes of the match.

3) I would never imply a match would be fixed, but to assign a referee who was onced barred from international matches as a result of corruption only to see him start giving out reds like its nobody's business gives the conspiracy theorists plenty of ammo.

4) Want to know why Americans think soccer is a sissy sport? For every one of our guys being back in a match despite his face being covered in blood 2 minutes earlier, or having a protruding tennis ball sized not coming out of his head, they see 11 little Italians with their metrosexual haircuts acting like they got shot by Sicilian mobsters everytime an opposing player makes contact with them. As a lifelong soccer fan, former college player, and eternal promotor of the beautiful game, there's no defense for that. What do you say? I can't say "they're tough." I can't say "ref's don't reward little bit_hes who cry more than little girls." All I can say is "That how Italians are," b/c there's really nothing I can say to combat that. Its embarassing.

5) What a showing in the second half by Landon Donovon, and the whole team really. Donovon really responded and strapped a pair on that day. Those guys got a good rest that night. I was happy with the tie, but dissapointed b/c despite all their horsecrap calls and all the diving, our fellas still outran, outplayed, and showed more balls than Italy. Of course, who doesn't show more balls than Italy. But I was very proud to be a soccer player raised in America after that showing. Italy doesn't understand talent is never enough. I wonder if they'll ever get cajones.

6) Amnesty for the Juventes players if Italy wins the Cup? LOL. Glad to see criminals aren't running THAT country anymore.

[Caintona]

Sorry, but I haven't been to the computer since the game, and its time to vent:

1) To any Italian fans reading this - I'd tell you maybe you should enter your men's team in the women's World Cup in '08, but I think they may be better off trying out for the Italian Diving Team for the Olympics. What a bunch of little girls. I knew this going in. Soon as I saw the draw months ago, I said "Great. Here we go." Then less than 30 seconds in, there's already a dive. How you can cheer for a bunch of guys that just roll over like a bunch of sissies, I'll never know. Props to Claudio Reyna, who came right out and called them a bunch of great divers.

2) The refs knew this was Italy, and they knew Italy gets its goals off set pieces called from diving fouls. And they still called all of them until the last 15 minutes of the match.

3) I would never imply a match would be fixed, but to assign a referee who was onced barred from international matches as a result of corruption only to see him start giving out reds like its nobody's business gives the conspiracy theorists plenty of ammo.

4) Want to know why Americans think soccer is a sissy sport? For every one of our guys being back in a match despite his face being covered in blood 2 minutes earlier, or having a protruding tennis ball sized not coming out of his head, they see 11 little Italians with their metrosexual haircuts acting like they got shot my Sicilian mobsters everytime an opposing player makes contact with them. As a lifelong soccer fan, former college player, and eternal promotor of the beautiful game, there's no defense for that. What do you say? I can't say "they're tough." I can't say "ref's don't reward little bit_hes who cry more than little girls." All I can say is "That how Italians are," b/c there's really nothing I can say to combat that. Its embarassing.

5) What a showing in the second half by Landon Donovon, and the whole team really. Donovon really responded and strapped a pair on that day. Those guys got a good rest that night. I was happy with the tie, but dissapointed b/c despite all their horsecrap calls and all their diving and the refing, our fellas still outran, outplayed, and of course showed more balls than Italy. Of course, who doesn't show more balls than Italy. But I was very proud to be a soccer player raised in America after that showing. Italy doesn't understand talent is never enough. I wonder if they'll ever get cajones.

6) Amnesty for the Juventes players if Italy wins the Cup? LOL. Glad to see criminals aren't running THAT country anymore.

Well said.

[kjksccr]

I do marvel at the diving. I have been hit so hard in games and if it hits my shinguard it doesn't hurt..really. In fact, we have all been stomped on, clipped, raked with cleats, etc. and I have the black toenails to prove it. I never spend any time rolling about on the grass and I am NOT a world class athlete. I am sure the Italians are tough and only fall when it will benefit the team somehow. However, we don't see that other physical part of the game, only the diving. A good example of the difference is how quick Cherundolo popped up after Del Piero fouled him (should have been a yellow). One thing I will always love about England and Scotland is their players just "get on with it."

[rohara30]

I do marvel at the diving. I have been hit so hard in games and if it hits my shinguard it doesn't hurt..really. In fact, we have all been stomped on, clipped, raked with cleats, etc. and I have the black toenails to prove it. I never spend any time rolling about on the grass and I am NOT a world class athlete. I am sure the Italians are tough and only fall when it will benefit the team somehow. However, we don't see that other physical part of the game, only the diving. A good example of the difference is how quick Cherundolo popped up after Del Piero fouled him (should have been a yellow). One thing I will always love about England and Scotland is their players just "get on with it."

If I dove like that, and laid on the ground crying, I would have had no friends on my college team, and my coach might have killed me for embarassing everyone. I don't know how they live through the embarassment. When I worked at summer camps during the off season, I would hand out cards to anyone who did this, and it would always be kids from romantic language-speaking countries (Portugal, South/Central America, Spain, Italy, Greece). My dad would have sent me to military school if I ever acted like that. But I guess the Italian fathers are like "Hey, see that guy squirming on the ground and crying like a baby? Thats my boy! I taught him that. Yeah Antonio!!! You make Italy beautiful!" They must be so proud. Why fight through something when you can just fall down and cry, right Italy? Talk about two different cultures.

[roadkit]

After attending both games last week, I have come to the conclusion that the core skill of Italian soccer players is to dive like little girls. That's why Nedved does it - he plays in Series A and must've learned it there - and why none of these Italian players play anywhere else. Who would want people like that on their team?

Yes, it's true, others do it too. But for the Italians, it appears to be one of the key components of their game.

Truly disgraceful, and really weak.

[djho]

If I dove like that, and laid on the ground crying, I would have had no friends on my college team, and my coach might have killed me for embarassing everyone. I don't know how they live through the embarassment. When I worked at summer camps during the off season, I would hand out cards to anyone who did this, and it would always be kids from romantic language-speaking countries (Portugal, South/Central America, Spain, Italy, Greece). My dad would have sent me to military school if I ever acted like that. But I guess the Italian fathers are like "Hey, see that guy squirming on the ground and crying like a baby? Thats my boy! I taught him that. Yeah Antonio!!! You make Italy beautiful!" They must be so proud. Why fight through something when you can just fall down and cry, right Italy? Talk about two different cultures.

The funniest thing about the diving is when they bring out a stretcher for him. After one of the red card causing dives, the guy "supposedly" required a stretcher. About 30 seconds later, he was running around on the field as Kasey Keller aimed a kick and almost hit the stretcher bearers. That's ridiculous. It's not "gamesmanship", it's flat out CHEATING!(Not suprising coming from the Italians, cheating appears to be par for the course and almost accepted there when it comes to soccer).

Note to all non-US fans: Here in the US, we watch a lot of American football. I can personally attest that the only times that I've ever seen a stretcher brought out for a player was when he had A) had to come off for a potentially life threatening neck injury, or B) a severely broken leg. My guess is if an NFL player pulled some of the stunts that the Italian players did on Saturday, that their teammates would never talk to them again. I just can't respect anyone doing that. That's our perspective.

[USsupport]

re: the whole theatrics thing.
I may be wrong but I see it as a cultural thing in that some places it's viewed as "part of the game".

you're right though, in some countries players would lose respect for those actions.

diving is a whole different discussion.

[Quaker]

re: the whole theatrics thing.
I may be wrong but I see it as a cultural thing in that some places it's viewed as "part of the game".
Well, yeah, and in some places bribing people is viewed as "part of doing business." Just because it's part of the culture doesn't excuse it. It's possible for cultural attitudes to be wrong.

[DiamondsYank]

One thing I will always love about England and Scotland is their players just "get on with it."

Yup. I love the EPL. It's fast-paced, skillful action. I can never bring myself to watch a Serie A game. All the diving makes me want to throw my shoe at the screen, and since I'm not too keen on buying a new tv set, I just avoid the matches altogether.

How anyone can say that diving is gamesmanship is beyond me. I don't view being deceitful as a quality trait. Like others have already said, I believe the diving tactics employed by Italy are taught from an early age. It is a part of their culture now. We just have to learn to live with it (and chastise them every chance we get, when we see it happen).

Here's a quote from Lippi about Arena's comments (how the Italians were 'faking' their injuries):

Italian manager Marcelo Lippi took exception to the complaint but kept his thoughts to himself after the match.

"I have no comment about what Mr Arena says about us," Lippi said. "I have things to say about his people, but I’m not doing it."

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/Monday/Sport/20060619075806/Article/index_html

Oh, please enlighten us, Marcelo. What could you possibly have to say about the USMNT? Or Americans in general? That they have a set of cojones larger than anyone on your squad? That they can take an elbow to the cheek and pop back up, blood dripping down the side of their face, and run back onto the field?

[USsupport]

Well, yeah, and in some places bribing people is viewed as "part of doing business." Just because it's part of the culture doesn't excuse it. It's possible for cultural attitudes to be wrong.

I agree. someone else alluded to it earlier about it being rife in countries that speak the romantic languages. I tend to agree with that although I don't know Farsi was a romantic language;)

it's a mans game and should be played like that. those fairies that were flopping around the other day should be ashamed of themselves, but they're not 'cos it's part of their culture.

[KMJvet]

Talk about two different cultures.

Only in soccer though. Their bike racers don't strike me as being like that. Sometimes they have soap opera about team leaders. But in crashes they get back up with the best of them.

Also, anyone complaining about Italian diving, wholly justified, please call out Dempsey too. He's a young player with an issue. Not for feigning injury...just for going down too easy.

[DiamondsYank]

6) Amnesty for the Juventes players if Italy wins the Cup? LOL. Glad to see criminals aren't running THAT country anymore.

Don't forget, AC Milan is in on the match fixing, too. Berlusconi is not only Prime Minister, but President of AC Milan. He also heads a financial and media conglomerate. Talk about a conflict of interest. Wasn't his conglomerate suspected of money laundering (or something of that nature)? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[KMJvet]

Yup. I love the EPL. It's fast-paced, skillful action. I can never bring myself to watch a Serie A game. All the diving makes me want to throw my shoe at the screen, and since I'm not too keen on buying a new tv set, I just avoid the matches altogether.

I watch EPL and avoid Serie A too, but it's not correct to say EPL has no problem with diving. It's quite bad. Ljundberg, Robben, Drogba, Christiano Ronaldo all play there, just to name a few.

[Dante]

Berlusconi is not only Prime Minister, but President of AC Milan. He also heads a financial and media conglomerate.

Hate to break it to you, but Berlusconi is not the Prime Minister of Italy, and when he was he was not the president of Milan.

[Dante]

Also, anyone complaining about Italian diving, wholly justified, please call out Dempsey too. He's a young player with an issue. Not for feigning injury...just for going down too easy.

Not just Dempsey, but Donovan too. He's taken a tumble a little too easily as well. For all the complaints about Italians diving I have to wonder if anyone watches MLS, there's a ton of diving that goes on there.

[DiamondsYank]

Not just Dempsey, but Donovan too. He's taken a tumble a little too easily as well. For all the complaints about Italians diving I have to wonder if anyone watches MLS, there's a ton of diving that goes on there.

Mostly from South Americans, like Ruiz. And the real kicker with Ruiz is that he's probably one of the dirtiest players in MLS.

[DiamondsYank]

Hate to break it to you, but Berlusconi is not the Prime Minister of Italy, and when he was he was not the president of Milan.

You should correct yourself and say he is no longer the Prime Minister, but he was till May of this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

It also says he's been president of AC Milan since 1986. There's no talk of a lapse during his tenure as Prime Minister.

[lemons]

For all the complaints about Italians diving I have to wonder if anyone watches MLS, there's a ton of diving that goes on there.

I'm sure MLS teams aren't this bad (http://youtube.com/watch?v=0do5xlE9C_A&search=italian%20training).


;)