Success Revisited: Post Italy

[BenC1357]

So, now that the sky actually isn't falling, can we take a more level headed look at what we define as a successful World Cup? None doomsdayers knew that we just met the Czechs on the wrong day: they were flying while we were grounded. A more representative US team showed up to play Italy and, if not for some intervention by the ref, could have pulled out the victory with a little more luck.

Before the Cup started there was a thread about what success would be. Many said only making it out of the group. A few said only the quarters or better. Some, in my opinion the more educated and knowledgable, said that playing well against two tough opponents and having a chance to make it out of the group with a win over Ghana would be successful.

So now, with that Ghana game looming have any of the posters from the original thread changed their minds. If we draw of lose to Ghana, the team that beat the Czechs 2-0, were we still a success? I would find it hard to think that any US fan would call our Cup a failure if we do beat Ghana, considering 4 points in the group stage is the most we've ever gotten, but would any of you consider it a failure if we did win but missed out on the knock out phase?

Personally I feel that if the same team shows up on Thursday that played Italy, with the same fire and determintion, we have had a successful cup regardless of the result. If we're flat and get outplayed, then I'll be considering this a failure but nothing near the magnitude of France '98.

[lemons]

If we play lights out against Ghana but still don't get out of the group, I will have two emotions. I will feel like we had a successful Cup because we would have played two top-notch games. However, I would also have a hint of disappointment because I would have known that we were good enough to get out and fell just short.

[Guinho]

It's a matter of degrees. I think beating Ghana and being edged out and not finishing last in the group is a must.

Advancing would be successful.

And playing high pressure, disruptive defense in the midfield as we did against Italy is also the best recipe for beating Brazil as well. You can't let Brazil find its game in the midfield. I'm hoping the redcard ban for Mastroeni doesn't extend into mulitple games.....

[Dirty_South_Futbol]

For me, beating Ghana, no matter if we advance or not, would be a success.
This is simply because I know that we can beat Ghana when we play our best. Maybe we did catch Italy on a bad day, but the effort of the Yanks on that day would earn a point or 3 against most teams in the cup.

We have earned some respect back by our display against Italy. to keep it we need to finish strong and play well against Ghana. I just hope that our guys can recover physically and emotionally.

Bottom line; If we get 4 points out of this group, we should be extremely proud. Despite the fact that we came so close to playing for 6 points come Thursday.

[S.J. Jim]

I still have mixed feelings. I know I should be proud of the effort against Italy, and I know the ref screwed us, but somehow I'm still not ready to talk about success. The fact that we STILL have not scored a goal (ourselves) after two matches is quite bothersome to me. If we defeat Ghana, and control the game, and score at least one nice goal, I'll feel much better about looking back on this tournament, regardless of whether we make it to the round of 16. If we advance to play Brazil, but got past Ghana with luck, Ghana errors, and/or an average effort, I'll be less than satisfied. I want us to start showing our assertive, dominant side. We always talk about "playing to win", regardless of the opponent. The sooner we start scoring goals, winning, advancing without the help of other teams in our group, and really earning some serious respect around the world, the sooner I'll be satisfied.

I still enjoy going back and watching tapes of the 2002 matches (especially Portugal and Mexico, but also Korea and Germany). I'm hopeful that four years from now I'll have more tapes to look forward to revisiting than just the draw with the Italians, which of course will not be entirely pleasant to watch.

[imidaho]

I'm still pissed that mexico was seeded ahead of us, and therefore getting a vanilla group.

[GoodForUS]

If the teams comes out with a 1-1-1 record from a group that was at least the 2nd hardest top to bottom in the tournament then I'll consider that a major success.

If they lose to Ghana that will be a huge let down but if they lose because they come out guns ablazing and get caught on a couple of counters then it won't be so bad.

I don't know if this is right or not but I have this feeling that the team scored some major points inside the non-soccer US sports audience for having battled so well against Italy. If they made some more converts out of the mainstream "soccer sux" folks then its a major success.

I do find it fun to hear Mike & Mike talking about soccer in the morning prior to WC matches. Maybe it's all a lie and they've been forced to do it by the ESPN higher ups but it's still fun to hear them say how they've "gotten into it." In the long run that's the true mark of success - growing the fanbase.

[jerseydan]

If the teams comes out with a 1-1-1 record from a group that was at least the 2nd hardest top to bottom in the tournament then I'll consider that a major success.

If they lose to Ghana that will be a huge let down but if they lose because they come out guns ablazing and get caught on a couple of counters then it won't be so bad.

I don't know if this is right or not but I have this feeling that the team scored some major points inside the non-soccer US sports audience for having battled so well against Italy. If they made some more converts out of the mainstream "soccer sux" folks then its a major success.

I do find it fun to hear Mike & Mike talking about soccer in the morning prior to WC matches. Maybe it's all a lie and they've been forced to do it by the ESPN higher ups but it's still fun to hear them say how they've "gotten into it." In the long run that's the true mark of success - growing the fanbase.
The one time I heard them ( it was because NPR wasn't coming in clear ) they seemed very excited and the one dude said he would really love to see the US get outta this very difficult group.

[Tony in Quakeland]

In the context of the performance against Italy, a victory against Ghana, whether we advance or not, would equal success. That is because the Italy game announced to the European soccer powers that we are a dangerous side and, combined with the 2002 game against Germany, establishes us as a legitimate threat.

[Stan Collins]

I'll judge this WC by the Ghana effort. If we play a spirited match but either don't win or don't get the result we need in the other game, I'll be disappointed but I'll give the boys the credit to say we took a tough situation and didn't fold.

[nobody]

I say we need to beat Ghana now. We played one horrible game and one very good game. If we play at our peak against Ghana, we should win. So, if we don't win, we end up with one standout game bookended by a couple downers, not good enough.

[VBSoccerFan]

I say we need to beat Ghana now. We played one horrible game and one very good game. If we play at our peak against Ghana, we should win. So, if we don't win, we end up with one standout game bookended by a couple downers, not good enough.

Before Ghana played CR I would have said our peak should beat Ghana. After that, I'm not as sure. Ghana looks extremely quick and fast with good skills, and they played well tactically in that game. They just looked like a very good team, and I'm not sure our peak beats their peak. So, I think it depends. The suspensions do hurt their offense, but they also hurt our defense, so it seems to be a bit of a wash.

[DoctorJones24]

Before the Cup started there was a thread about what success would be. Many said only making it out of the group. A few said only the quarters or better. Some, in my opinion the more educated and knowledgable, said that playing well against two tough opponents and having a chance to make it out of the group with a win over Ghana would be successful.

If we draw of lose to Ghana, the team that beat the Czechs 2-0, were we still a success?

No. I think you're right that many people had unrealistic expectations, but you're also conflating "likely/acceptable result" with "success."

Success always had to be defined by getting out of the group, and this is what Bruce has correctly been saying all along. Success is about results, not about playing well. IMO, it was never likely we'd "succeed" in a World Cup on Euro soil. But I also didn't expect us to lay an egg like we did in the first game either. I thought we'd play better than we did in 02 and still not advance, but I wasn't telling myself that would be a successful outcome...just a realistic one.

[VBSoccerFan]

No. I think you're right that many people had unrealistic expectations, but you're also conflating "likely/acceptable result" with "success."

Success always had to be defined by getting out of the group, and this is what Bruce has correctly been saying all along. Success is about results, not about playing well. IMO, it was never likely we'd "succeed" in a World Cup on Euro soil. But I also didn't expect us to lay an egg like we did in the first game either. I thought we'd play better than we did in 02 and still not advance, but I wasn't telling myself that would be a successful outcome...just a realistic one.

"Success" can mean different things. You seem to compare it to an absolute standard. Others might compare it to ability level. What is success for a select soccer player could be different than what is success for a rec player. What is success could be different for Brazil than for Togo. So I do not agree that success "had to be defined by getting out of the group." If that's above your capabilities, how can you have failed if you achieve what is in your capabilities?

[encinitas]

I think with all the heart we played with on Saturday it would all go down the drain if we dont show up and win on Thursday....
Can we bring the same intensity to the game? I hope so

[FirstStar]

I think success at this WC is very important for US Soccer right now. Not that we are going to revert to the dark ages if we flame out against Ghana, but that there's been a lot of interest generated by this WC (most in the US, but people are watching a lot of other games as well). If we can give the public something to latch onto for another week, we'll convert a lot more fans, create more ticket-buyers (and jersey buyers, etc) and generally make professional soccer in US a more profitable business. That will, in turn, feed back to the US team as the nation produces better players.

I think "success" now comes on two levels-- I'll be proud of this team if they play as well against Ghana as they did against Italy. I'd expect to win such a match, but the ball is round and the game lasts 90 minutes (ie- anything can happen). On a bigger level, I think the US needs to advance and play a good game against Brazil, and then we'd have an unqualified "success" in creating many new fans and living up to the buzz that in the air right now.

[Dills]

do i think a draw against italy can be considered a success? definitely.

did a different team show up on the pitch compared to the one versus the czech rep? absolutely.

did they put it all out there, giving it 110%? without a doubt.

have they scored a goal yet? no, and that's something they actually need to accomplish. i think beasley's "goal" gave them the taste, but they need to be a bit more gluttonous with this.

[EEUU]

I think that if we get 4 points from the group we did "OK". In order for our Cup to widely be seen as a success we need to get out of this group and have a good game against Brazil, whether we win or lose. Then, if we crash out against them with a good effort in the 16, our Cup will certainly be seen as a success even though we failed to defeat a major soccer power.

We'll be remembered as the team that went to the quarters in '02, and then rebounded by getting out of a very tough group on Euro soil in '06 and lost to Brazil.

[PhilipReed]

"Success" can mean different things. You seem to compare it to an absolute standard. Others might compare it to ability level.

That pretty much says it all. IMO this is a fairly useless semantic argument, so instead I'll look at a few scenarios.

In the almost-worst case, if we lose a hard-fought game to Ghana I'm still relieved that the team showed a lot of maturity in fighting back from a terrible start. Similarly if we draw with Ghana I'm disappointed that we didn't do everything possible to make the second round, but not necessarily that down about the big picture. (IMO our fans are almost universally dismissive of Ghana, and have been since the draw. Teams have a way of coming together to compensate for the loss of key performers, and I frankly expect Ghana to give a strong performance.)

If we end up beating Ghana and eliminated on GD, our team will have made a nice statement about where we stand and we can realistically blame the tough draw. Such are the breaks.

Obviously if we make the second round, in view of where things stood on Monday I'm ecstatic. In fact I should be ecstatic in any event, given the difficulty of this group.

I don't like these semantic discussions because they remind me of the "Our team sucks because you don't demand excellence!" bullshit that I see all over college sports message boards. The US isn't going to play one iota differently whether I decide to "accept" a one-point peformance or decide to tie myself up in knots because they didn't take nine points from the group.

[maddog36]

At this point, I would say that we have redeemed ourselves after that 3-0 display against the Czechs. If you asked me 2 weeks ago if 1 point out of our first two games would be acceptable, I would have said yes.

However, at this point, I would be disappointed if we didn't make it out of our group. We SHOULD beat Ghana (who won't have their two goal scorers from Saturday available due to yellow accumulations), and Italy SHOULD beat the Czechs (who are down to their 4th and 5th strikers).