Totti the best player in the world...

[SirManchester]

Gerrard, Lampard, Ronaldinho and Henry are all better players than Totti. As are Eto'o, Shevchenko, Terry. Totti is next alongside Ballack and Deco.

Alright then, since we're on this topic.

Henry
Ronaldinho
Totti
Gerrard
Ballack
Lampard
Shevchenko

[ForeverRed]

Ahem...

Where is Gerrard on that list? :D

[Stud83]

I was thinking of actually arguing with the above, then I saw
the part in bold. Funny guy.

What, defenders can't be in the consideration for being world's best players?

[Bertje]

What, defenders can't be in the consideration for being world's best players?

If they are, sure, but then atleast pick the best defender.

[Stud83]

Being the best defender on a team with the best defensive record in Europe, plus scoring 15 goals over the past 2 years, half of which were game winners, makes Terry one of the best players in the world.

[4-3-3]

1. Ronaldinho (the best)
2. Totti (the second best)
3. Henry (has to be in the top 3)
4. Shevchenko
5. Eto'o
6. Gerrard
7. Toni (with his current form has to be in the top 10)
8. Lampard
9. Ballack
10. ????

[Bertje]

Being the best defender on a team with the best defensive record in Europe, plus scoring 15 goals over the past 2 years, half of which were game winners, makes Terry one of the best players in the world.

Picking Terry over the likes of Cannavaro, Puyol and Nesta is plain stupid.

[impalemeplz]

Well, in theory he's right. It's hard to argue against the idea that Totti could score coming off the bench.

I bet Pele would have been an amazing scorer coming off the bench. :D

totti scored that penalty coming off the bench. something pele cant attest to because he never played in a european championship:D

[Stud83]

Picking Terry over the likes of Cannavaro, Puyol and Nesta is plain stupid.

As I said, Terry is the best defender on a team with the best defensive record in Europe over the past 2 seasons, he scored 15 goals over the past 2 years, half of which were game winners. That's more than twice the combined number of goals scored by the players you mentioned. Even if you disagree with him being the one of the best players in the world, you gotta admit, the case can be made for him.

Totti on the other hand is playing for a very average team, which is average with him, and average without him. He's the best player on 5th best Italian team (they were in 5th place in February prior to his injury as well). He's participated in a very few important games, and lost most of them. Shining against Livornos, Chievos, Regginas and Cagliaris of the world is enough to make you a world's best player? :confused:

[impalemeplz]

im sure he had the bitchslapping of stam, popescu and lizarazu in mind, baby powder included, when he was making that statement.:o

[romagol10]

mancini had as much to do with that run as totti if i remember correctly?
Spalletti had the entire team playing well and Mancini did score some important goals for us, yes. But Totti was fantastic and the most important factor.

[romagol10]

Totti on the other hand is playing for a very average team, which is average with him, and average without him. He's the best player on 5th best Italian team (they were in 5th place in February prior to his injury as well). He's participated in a very few important games, and lost most of them. Shining against Livornos, Chievos, Regginas and Cagliaris of the world is enough to make you a world's best player? :confused:
In the 12 Serie A games before Totti's injury Roma's record was 9 wins, 2 draws, and 1 loss. In the 12 games after (including the Empoli game because Totti was injured so early in it) the record is 4 wins, 6 draws, and 1 loss. That's 29 points out of a possible 36 with Totti, and 18 out of 36 without him. And going in to the last match of the season we are 2 points behind 4th place Fiorentina. I think it's fair to say Totti's injury is the difference between 4th and 5th place for Roma right now and we're clearly not as good a side without him as we are with him (which you implied when you said 5th before his injury and 5th after).

And your last sentence is BS. Totti played well against Inter, Milan, Juve (coppa italia), Lazio, and Fiorentina this season.

[Stud83]

In the 12 Serie A games before Totti's injury Roma's record was 9 wins, 2 draws, and 1 loss. In the 12 games after (including the Empoli game because Totti was injured so early in it) the record is 4 wins, 6 draws, and 1 loss.


Why do you only take 12 games into account? If Roma played like that from the beginning of the season, they would've been major contenders for top 2.
For example, if you take 6 games prior to those 12 games, where Totti played, Roma lost 3 and tied 3. 3 points out of possible 18 with Totti in the lineup.
If you divide the number of points Roma gained by the number of games played with Totti and without him from the beginning of the season, the numbers will be similar.


I think it's fair to say Totti's injury is the difference between 4th and 5th place for Roma right now and we're clearly not as good a side without him as we are with him (which you implied when you said 5th before his injury
and 5th after).


OK, so Totti is a player that can take his team from 5th place in the standings to 4th. Not gonna argue that. But what does it prove?


And your last sentence is BS. Totti played well against Inter, Milan, Juve (coppa italia), Lazio, and Fiorentina this season.


In the scheme of things, none of these games were very important. Roma were never a contender for the title, and none of those games were crucial to another team (the game against Inter that Roma lost was crucial, as is the game against Milan).

[romagol10]

Why do you only take 12 games into account? If Roma played like that from the beginning of the season, they would've been major contenders for top 2.
For example, if you take 6 games prior to those 12 games, where Totti played, Roma lost 3 and tied 3. 3 points out of possible 18 with Totti in the lineup.
If you divide the number of points Roma gained by the number of games played with Totti and without him from the beginning of the season, the numbers will be similar.

I took 12 games because that is how many Roma played after Totti's injury. And I don't think it's completely fair to look at games at the beginning of the season when the whole Cassano drama was being played out. Since Cassano's departure the team has been much better.


OK, so Totti is a player that can take his team from 5th place in the standings to 4th. Not gonna argue that. But what does it prove?
It proves that he makes a difference in the standings. I only brought this up because of what you said earlier about fifth before the injury and fifth after it.



In the scheme of things, none of these games were very important. Roma were never a contender for the title, and none of those games were crucial to another team (the game against Inter that Roma lost was crucial, as is the game against Milan).
That's absurd. Of course the Coppa Italia final is more important than one single Serie A match. But for a team aiming for a top 4 finish (Roma), getting results against the top teams is crucial.
edit: After re-reading your post it occured to me you're saying the matches must be crucial to Roma's opponents for them to matter? For a team competitng for the scudetto (the two Milan sides) games against teams very capable of taking points from other title contenders (Roma, Fiorentina) are some of the most important matches of the season. It's not like they played their second string against Roma or didn't try as hard.

[nicephoras]

Picking Terry over the likes of Cannavaro, Puyol and Nesta is plain stupid.

How so? :confused: What exactly more do you want him to do?

[Stud83]

For a team competitng for the scudetto (the two Milan sides) games against teams very capable of taking points from other title contenders (Roma, Fiorentina) are some of the most important matches of the season. It's not like they played their second string against Roma or didn't try as hard.

No, the point I was making is that there is a certain number of games every season which are crucial. Cup late rounds play-offs, CL or UEFA Cup, games against teams that are right in front of you (or right behind you) late in the season. Games against leaders early in the season are important, but not crucial. Of course, you want to win, but even if you lose 0-3 or 1-4 to Boro, it doesn't make or break your season.
So I don't see how a 12 game stretch in the middle of the season by a player playing for (at best) 4th best Italian team can make him the best player in the world above the likes of Ronaldinho, Henry or Gerrard, which played great in crucial games.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Back to your Totti bashing I see. Have you even seen Totti or Roma play?

[romagol10]

No, the point I was making is that there is a certain number of games every season which are crucial. Cup late rounds play-offs, CL or UEFA Cup, games against teams that are right in front of you (or right behind you) late in the season. Games against leaders early in the season are important, but not crucial. Of course, you want to win, but even if you lose 0-3 or 1-4 to Boro, it doesn't make or break your season.
So I don't see how a 12 game stretch in the middle of the season by a player playing for (at best) 4th best Italian team can make him the best player in the world above the likes of Ronaldinho, Henry or Gerrard, which played great in crucial games.
So because Totti didn't play in any "crucial" games this season and his club isn't as strong, he isn't as good as the players you mention? I think that's some pretty bad logic but if that's your position we'll just have to agree to disagree as I can't see this debate being resolved unless a wealthy Russian buys Roma tomorrow.

My belief that Totti, Henry, Ronaldinho, and maybe one or two other players are roughly as good as one another is based more on what I've seen them do individually than what they've done with their teams. In other words, their talent and effectiveness. Totti has not enjoyed the same level of success that the other top players have but IMO that doesn't mean he's not as good.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

If Totti was Brazilian and played for an elite side, this wouldn't even be up for debate... :rolleyes:

[Stud83]

Back to your Totti bashing I see. Have you even seen Totti or Roma play?

Plenty. And I'm not bashing anyone. He's a very good player, it's just that he's not the best in the world.