The lack of the Vorstopper: our undoing?

[balla_basti]

What do you guys reckon? U think thats the case?

i really believe that the lack of the Vorstopper or in today's world the conventional DM could prove our undoing.

Even in the 2002 World Cup we had Carsten Ramelow, a player who was severely underrated. He had immense ability on the ball and he was more than a decent distributor in addition to being a good tackler and a great reader of the game.

We miss a player like that in this team. Frings is no DM and i have yet to see too much of Kehl to convince me that he can play this role.

[Bayerntone]

This is the case. But searching hi and lo, who are more qualified? There is a scarcity of talents who fit for that position in the NT.

[todd11]

Carsten Ramelow, a player who was severely underrated. He had immense ability on the ball and he was more than a decent distributor in addition to being a good tackler and a great reader of the game.


I agree completely with your premise that the DM position is a big problem. However, Ramelow--- although he was obviously an important cog in the team of '02...for me will always be the dictionary definition of "anti-fussballer". Technically proficient he ain't. That said, this current team could use a real destroyer like Ramelow in front of the young defense.

[AGF Aarhus]

This has always been the position from which the German NT was built. Not possible with the current group, though.

[The Beautiful Frame]

What do you guys reckon?

I reckon you don't know what a Vorstopper is. It's not a midfield position. In a system using one-on-one defence, the Vorstopper is the one marking the central attacker. Basically, a Vorstopper is a centre back. Karl-Heinz Förster was a Vorstopper, Jürgen Kohler too.

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.

[ForeverRed]

I reckon you don't know what a Vorstopper is. It's not a midfield position. In a system using one-on-one defence, the Vorstopper is the one marking the central attacker. Basically, a Vorstopper is a centre back. Karl-Heinz Förster was a Vorstopper, Jürgen Kohler too.

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.


There is a difference between playing Kehl there and Frings. Frings is not a DM, he is a more free roaming player who utilizies much more of the space, especially down the flanks.

And for Ballack to be effective in that role, different tactics would be needed, ala leverkusen.

[balla_basti]

@ The beautiful frame: Pardon me if i am wrong but since i am not German these terms dont come naturally to me.

I was of the opinion that the term Vorstopper meant "advanced stopper" such as the like of Ramelow in 2002, Matthaus in 1990 and Schwarzenbeck in the 70's. A more recent example would be Theo Zagorakis of Greece.

A player equally efficient in destroying play and also efficient in coming up with the ball.

In any case German terms aside i fail to agree with you on the fact that Frings can provide adequately as a DM. He is just not a central defensive midfielder. He cannot do a job there for the entire length of the tournament. Just see his performances against Italy and even Mexico on the Confed Cup. He cant cope with that position. The right wingback role suits him better. And he doesnt even play the DM at Werder.

Also look at the France game. Frings needs all the help he can get and that often curbs Ballacks game as he has to come deep to defend as well and is not free to roam forward and put his attacking attributes to use.


And contrary to what you say...its the defensive midfield i am most worried about. We should make sure that as little balls as possible get to our center
halves.

id say this is the biggest worry for me.

[poorvi]

I agree with balla_basti.

There is a need of a holder.

I am of the opinion that Dieter Hamann is best suited for this role. This is the second time in as many finals, that his entry has resulted in blocking of opposition breakthroughs, and release of Gerrard to attack freely.

Gerrad, and Ballack, both are similar players, in the sense, both use their large physique to win the ball, both got a hard and accurate shot, and both like to press forward in attack. If Hamann is bought on, Ballack can go ahead freely, just as Gerrard went ahead freely today. He has the right age and big game expereince for the world cup.

[scorpio81]

i agree that germany needs a proper defensive mid to be at its strongest at the world cup and but i dont agree that hamann is the man for the job...

he was clueless vs holland (and, imo thats where germany started going backwards under klinsi again - when he brought back the veterans and rested the starlets) and he didnt really do much today... i dont think he freed gerrard up much as i saw him get into the box only as long as xabi alonso was on the field...
he did get onto RM though (despite KK being brought on to play there) and maybe his lack of mobility was down to the injury to his left ankle later in the game, but my point is that hamann did nothing today to convince me that he should be taken to the world cup...

kehl or frings it should be if playing a 442... if frings, then ballack should not play too advanced but frings can play a role similar to xabi when he partners stevieg at anfield and ballack should do his bit in terms of tracking back (which hes quite capable of, as he showed at the last world cup)...

the 352 is my preferred formation, but can leave that for the other thread and i think its already been covered!

[(+¹º)]

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.

Ballack a natural DM? Err well yeah he started off as one early in his carerr but after he moved to Leverkusen he became a free roaming midfielder with Ramelow behind him and Basturk in front.

As for Frings playing well in DM... you're more optimistic than me especially seeing as the two CBs have little experience.

[balla_basti]

well on the basis of the Japan game i can only restate my opinions and such experts as The Beautiful Frame can continue to convince me that Frings is the natural and right man for the job ;)

Why should we be worried anyways huh? :)

[balla_basti]

what i will say though is that in my very humble opinion, if germany do get caught out in this World Cup it will be due to their lack of a genuine DM rather than the defence that is so maligned.

@ scorpio: great point mate. But the fact is that the Germans play a more diamond formation while liverpool play a flat system. So Ballack and Frings shouldnt in theory overlap each others duties. But they should. you are right.

[Gregoriak]

Let me just sneak in the etymology of the word "vorstopper":

Back in the days of the 2-3-5 formation (1920s/early 1930s), the scheme looked like this (with English and German terms). The two inside forwards very much in a striker role and the center half also playing a offensive role.

English terms:

-11-Outside Left-10-Inside Left-9-Center Forward-8-Inside Right-7-Outside Right

----------6-Left Half Back----5-Center Half------4-Right Half Back

---3-Left Full Back-------------------------------------2-Right Full Back

-----------------------------1-Goalkeeper


German terms:

-11-Linksaußen-10-Halblinker--9-Mittelstürmer--8-Halbrechter--7-Rechtsaußen

----------6-Linker Läufer----5-Mittelläufer-----4-Rechter Läufer

-----3-Rechter Verteidiger-----------------------------2-Linker Verteidiger

------------------------------1-Torhüter


In the 1930s, the W-M formation took shape, when the two inside forwards were drawn back to form a pairing with the two half backs, and the center half was assigned a more defensive role as he was drawn back to play between the two full backs, as his new task was to cover the opponent's center forward.

English terms:

--------11-Outside left---------9-Center Forward-------7-Outside Right

------------------10-Inside Left---------------8-Inside Right

-------------6-Left Half Back---------------------4-Right Half Back

----3--Left Full Back-------5-Center Half/Stopper---------2-Right Full Back

--------------------------------1-Goalkeeper


German terms:

----11-Linksaußen------------9-Mittelstürmer---------7-Rechtsaußen

----------------10-Halblinker----------------8-Halbrechter

-----------6-Linker Läufer----------------------4-Rechter Läufer

----3-Linker Verteidiger---5-Mittelläufer/Stopper-----2-Rechter Verteidiger

-------------------------------1-Torhüter

The name of the center half gradually changed to that of "stopper", as his new main task was to stop the opposing center forward (but center half still remained a term often used).

The W-M System was used for roughly 20-25 years with few alterations. But by the late-1950s, the 4-2-4 system became the new standard formation in world football. One of the half backs was drawn back to join the three defenders. The four man defensive line was formed, and one of the inside forwards was moved forward to join the three man attack. The remaining half back and inside forward formed the newly developed two-man midfield:

English terms:

-11-Outside Left--10-Inside Left---9-Center Forward---7-Outside Right

---6-Left Half Back (Left Midfielder)----8-Inside Right (Right Midfielder)

-3-Left Full Back--5-Center Half/Stopper-4-Right Half Back--2-Right Full Back

-----------------------------1-Goalkeeper


German terms:

--11-Linksaußen---10-Halblinker---9-Mittelstürmer---7-Rechtsaußen

--6-Linker Läufer (Linker Mittelfeldspieler)-8-Halbrechter (Rechter Mittelf.sp.)

-3-Linker Verteidiger--5-Stopper---4-Rechter Läufer--2-Rechter Verteidiger

----------------------------1-Torhüter


With the advent of catenaccio, the sweeper was introduced, and this was usually the player that was the center half/stopper in the old system, also the four man attack got back to a three man attack, as the inside left played a more withdrawn role, to become a midfielder:

English terms:

----11-Outside Left----------9-Center Forward--------7-Outside Right

--------------10-Left Midfielder----------------8-Right Midfielder

-----------------------------6-Defensive Midfielder

--3-Left Full Back---------------4-Center Back------------2-Right Full Back

------------------------------5-Stopper/Sweeper

--------------------------------1-Goalkeeper


In Germany, the old stopper was now used as sweeper (Ausputzer) or, more stylishly, the libero. The right half back that was drawn back to join him in defense in the 4-2-4 system now was positioned in front of the old stopper (now the sweeper), and that's how the term "Vorstopper" was coined! For non-Germans it is hard to understand the meaning of this word, as it was the result of a rather complicated development over a period spanning 40-50 years:

German terms:

-------11-Linksaußen----------9-Mittelstürmer--------7-Rechtsaußen

---------------10-Linker Mittelf.sp.----------8-Rechter Mittelf.sp.

---------------------------6-Defensiver Mittelf.sp.

----3-Linker Verteidiger---------4-Vorstopper--------2-Rechter Verteidiger

--------------------------5-Libero/Ausputzer/Stopper

---------------------------------1-Torhüter


Normally, the "Vorstopper" should have been named "Stopper", as he was the one that had to cover the opponent's center forward, like the stopper in the old W-M System did. But since the term "stopper" was so established as the main guy in the defense, the name was automatically connected to the sweeper, who was now the new main guy in the defense, even if he now was not assigned any tasks to "stop" a specific player. Thus the guy that now had to mark the center forward was the guy playing in front of the old stopper, in German: "vor dem Stopper", shortened to "Vorstopper".

That's the origin of the strange and confusing word "Vorstopper".

[herewego]

Very informational. I want to add, that "Vorstopper" can have two rather similar meanings, if you translate word by word, both make sence.

"Vor" can have the meaning of a relation in a space, as you mentionend: in front of something.

But it could also be the shortform of "bevor" ~ before, a relation in time.

So "Vorstopper" can be descriven as the player in front of the stopper, but also as the player of two stoppers who tries to stop first.

I know, it might be much to semantic for a soccer board, but the most designations are descriptions of a position on the pitch: left, right, front, center, back. But the terms keeper, sweeper and stopper are depending on the function, not the position.

Especially with a sweeper behind him, the "Vorstopper" is that guy that has to stop the attackers first, while the sweeper "Ausputzer" is the task force, which only comes in duty later, in case that the "Vorstopper" was not successfull.

[Lionhead]

So "Vorstopper" can be descriven as the player in front of the stopper, but also as the player of two stoppers who tries to stop first.

I know, it might be much to semantic for a soccer board, but the most designations are descriptions of a position on the pitch: left, right, front, center, back. But the terms keeper, sweeper and stopper are depending on the function, not the position.

Especially with a sweeper behind him, the "Vorstopper" is that guy that has to stop the attackers first, while the sweeper "Ausputzer" is the task force, which only comes in duty later, in case that the "Vorstopper" was not successfull.

I second that. Historically this position was perfected in NT by tanks like Schwarzenbeck, KH Förster, Augenthaler, Kohler. This position is effectively abolished as it was simply a destroyer and nowadays no team can afford a player doing only this task.

[HerrRupert]

What do you guys reckon? U think thats the case?

i really believe that the lack of the Vorstopper or in today's world the conventional DM could prove our undoing.

Even in the 2002 World Cup we had Carsten Ramelow, a player who was severely underrated. He had immense ability on the ball and he was more than a decent distributor in addition to being a good tackler and a great reader of the game.

We miss a player like that in this team. Frings is no DM and i have yet to see too much of Kehl to convince me that he can play this role.

no the problem is grinsmanns harakiri tactics (he wants to play brazilian with germans lol) the players wouldve been there woerns etc...

but grinsi leaves them at home

[HerrRupert]

This is the case. But searching hi and lo, who are more qualified? There is a scarcity of talents who fit for that position in the NT.


didi hamann

[HerrRupert]

didi hamann

at least he is a reg starter at pool unlike some grinsi players

[Lionhead]

didi hamann

So true, HerrRuprecht! Wörns and Hamann could have added stability to our defense. Now we have Grinsis "Junge Himmelstürmer" trying to score more goals than our defense concedes.

[Zwanzigoetzel]

I'd say bring the LIBERO back. Old fashioned? Maybe, but looking at our current defense I think we could use someone who stands behind everybody else and can clear the ball if the defenders screw up, lose a one on one or are once again simply too slow.
Darn, I knew Klinsmann should have nominated Beckenbauer.....:D