View Full Version : Most Revolutionary/Pioneering teams?
xTottixCorex
18 Apr 2007, 11:36 PM
George Graham's Arsenal, and that "offside trap" they used it so much ,it's referenced in the movie "the full monty" hey, other then getting REALLY wasted, it's the only other reason tony adams is infamous(since his defensive skills are underrated by most non-arsenal fans).
United Pumps
19 Apr 2007, 05:53 PM
Brazil in the 50s for sure!
How were they revolutionary?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6494653.stm
Interesting article. Not so much about the entire team, more about Ademir.
Schu419
21 Apr 2007, 02:43 PM
"Flat Back Four" by Andy Gray has some interesting chapters on the evolution of tactics. The chapter on the famous Wembley match of Nov 1953 between England and Hungary is particularly good.
W-M meets U-M.
Could you reccommend other very good books on tactics?
PsychedelicCeltic
23 Apr 2007, 03:58 AM
The 424 and total football were revolutionary but, in spite of repeated attempts, they were not successfully duplicated. You had to have a special set of genius players to do that.
The 4-2-4 is revolutionary but I would hardly say it wasn't successfully duplicated. It was the standard formation for most British clubs for about 20 years and even today Manchester United play something very similar to a 4-2-4, considering how often Giggs and Ronaldo are referred to as wingers (something which shouldn't exist in a proper 4-4-2).
Likewise total football's effects are still felt today. Defenders, particularly full-backs, are expected to be able to attack when necessary. Back in the 70s, full-backs really did no attacking at all. There is far more overlapping today than even 20 years ago. The attacking midfielder who springs up in the forward line is also a manifestation of this.
dor02
23 Apr 2007, 04:10 AM
George Graham's Arsenal, and that "offside trap" they used it so much ,it's referenced in the movie "the full monty" hey, other then getting REALLY wasted, it's the only other reason tony adams is infamous(since his defensive skills are underrated by most non-arsenal fans).George Graham's Gunners, the most boring team ever. "Let's bomb it long and hope for the best." :D
Tricky Tree
23 Apr 2007, 07:04 AM
Now what about Austria's 'Wunderteam' in the 1930s. Wasn't Hugo Meisl supposed to have pre-dated total football with 'The Whirl'?
xTottixCorex
26 Apr 2007, 08:29 PM
Now what about Austria's 'Wunderteam' in the 1930s. Wasn't Hugo Meisl supposed to have pre-dated total football with 'The Whirl'?yep, most people had them as favorites in the 1934 world cup. i heard they were amazing.
xTottixCorex
26 Apr 2007, 08:31 PM
George Graham's Gunners, the most boring team ever. "Let's bomb it long and hope for the best." :Dlol, at least it worked. THAT was the scary part.:rolleyes:
Bauser
27 Apr 2007, 04:00 PM
I always thought Ernst Happel was the "father of the offside trap". He worked on perfecting it with Den Haag and Feyenoord in the late 60s and early 70s.
Bertje
27 Apr 2007, 05:04 PM
He copied it from Ajax.
lanman
27 Apr 2007, 06:18 PM
The offside trap is almost as old as the game itself. The 1925 rule change was brought about due to a lack of goals as most teams at the time were playing that system.
johan neeskens
01 May 2007, 10:12 AM
I don't know if it was done before that, but I was under the impressing using the offside trap for defense was thought of by Rinus Michels. I know Ajax stopped about half of the attacks that were started against them with the offside trap.
You can tell from the 1974 footage that many Holland opponents were stunned by the offside trap (esp and famously Argentina!), so it's probably safe to say that the Dutch were the first to take it to the mainstream.
sidis
01 May 2007, 10:55 AM
Vasco was the first team to prefer tall strong players in attack.
in 1948 our 4 forwards (4-2-4 formation) have an average of 1,90m
minorthreat
11 May 2007, 03:52 AM
The 424 and total football were revolutionary but, in spite of repeated attempts, they were not successfully duplicated. You had to have a special set of genius players to do that.It was used quite extensively by Real Madrid in the '50s.
dor02
11 May 2007, 04:21 AM
Good to see you back, minorthreat.
At NT level, the 4-2-4 was best used by Brazil and Hungary and at club level, Benfica were also good at using it.
Who were the earliest users of the 4-3-3? Brazil 62 and Milan of the 60s spring to mind. The Dutch and German sides of the 70s perfected it though.
lanman
11 May 2007, 01:06 PM
At NT level, the 4-2-4 was best used by Brazil and Hungary and at club level, Benfica were also good at using it.
Benfica bring up an intersting point. Under Bela Guttman they usually played 4-2-4 (Guttman being one of the pioneers of the formation) but he was not afraid to revert back to W-M, which he did on many occassions as the situation demanded.
lanman
11 May 2007, 01:07 PM
It was used quite extensively by Real Madrid in the '50s.
Emil Oestreicher probably had a huge influence on that, being a former Hungarian coach.
Gregoriak
11 May 2007, 04:33 PM
Likewise total football's effects are still felt today. Defenders, particularly full-backs, are expected to be able to attack when necessary. Back in the 70s, full-backs really did no attacking at all. There is far more overlapping today than even 20 years ago. The attacking midfielder who springs up in the forward line is also a manifestation of this.
By the 1970s, attacking full backs were standard.
dor02
12 May 2007, 04:54 AM
Benfica bring up an intersting point. Under Bela Guttman they usually played 4-2-4 (Guttman being one of the pioneers of the formation) but he was not afraid to revert back to W-M, which he did on many occassions as the situation demanded.In the 1961 and 62 European Cup Finals, Guttmann used it:
1961
Costa Pereira - Joäo, Germano, Angelo - Neto, Cruz - José Augusto,
Santana, Aguas (c), Coluña, Cavém
1962
Costa Pereira - João, Germano, Angelo - Cavem, Cruz - José Augusto, Eusébio, Aguas (c), Coluña, Simões
My guess is that Aguas and Coluña played in the midfield. Even though Aguas was a centre-forward, I can't really picture Eusebio being moved into the midfield.
cantona94
15 May 2007, 09:51 PM
Tactically and the way they played the game, all the previous teams mentioned are awesome.
However, as an American, and please don't bash me, you have to see where I'm coming from to understand....the New York Cosmos were one of the most revolutionary/pioneering teams, as far as the United States is concerned. They virtually put soccer on the map in the states (course they also helped kill the NASL). Without the Cosmos and Pele, soccer in the states might not have grown into what it is now becoming.
Just my opinion.