Necessity of a #9?

[johno]

Must United play with a true #9?

Facing the possible transfer of Ruud, either this summer or perhaps in 3 or 4 years and the emergence of Rossi as an amazing talent with Rooney already one of the world's top players we must consider the possibility of a 9less line-up. Unless Rooney or Rossi moves to midfield its likely that they may both be operating in forward roles at the same time.

Neither Rooney, nor Rossi can be described as a 9. Rooney lacks the finishing, heading technique (not all 9's are good in the air, but the vast majority of them are targets for crosses and can nod home headers with relative ease once they are open) and the positioning. Rossi's finishing is there, but combined with his slight stature (which makes him starting on a defender which 9's do, they don't "come from deep") less likely to be effective, his physical attributes and positioning sense are those of a support striker.

Lets first describe a "true #9."

Such a player is a pure goal scorer. He acts as the focal point of the attack. He is NOT the focal point of the team, but in general, the job of the creative players is on the whole to provide him with service and he usually draws the attention of the best man-marking CB on the team. He's the quintesential "Fox in the Box." Said 9 need not be a target man, but he often is. For example, Crouch and Larsson are 9's. Ruud and Owen are also 9's.

Most teams play with a true 9, some play with 2.

However, there are some successful teams that don't employ a true 9. Arsenal for the last several years have failed to use a 9 as neither Kanu nor Bergkamp who've partnered Henry could be described as 9s.

Barca don't play with a 9 (Larsson is not an everyday starter and even when he plays he plays on the wing :eek:) even though they play a 433 which is astounding really.

The characteristics of most teams that play without a 9 are:
Excellent passing, Good movement off the ball, A Solid spine, (including atleast one player in midfield that allows the attacking players to roam without the defensive consequences being too great) atleast one good midfielder that likes to get into the box and score goals, and at least one good overlapping back.

We've got the spine and we have the fullbacks to make it work. We also have some players who move well off the ball and with the addition of 2 CMs and the addition of Rossi into the line-up we may have the recipe required.

David Jones and Paul Scholes who won't likely be in the same team are certainly capable of being the hub of such a team. Mr. Pink may well have those attributes and Gibson may well work well in such a role as well.

Ronaldo can fill the role of goal scoring midfielder who gets into the box alot, ala Ronaldinho, Pires/Ljunberg and can score. He does this with Portugal pretty well.

Although it will be useful and quite necessary to keep around a 9 when Ruud is gone, be it next season or in 3 years I think we could perhaps make it work.

---------------------Rooney
---------------Rossi
--------------------------------Ronaldo
Park---------Scholes/Jones
-------------------Mr. Pink/Gibbson
Heinze---Nemanja---Ferdinand--Neville/Simpson

Rossi and Rooney will move freely flowing back and forth. One sticking with the last defender and the other playing deeper. Occasionally they can drift wide as well and when Rooney is roaming and Rossi drops deep we'll see Ronaldo stretch the field vertically either by making runs down the wing or being the highest man in a more central role on counter-attacks.

There will be times when we won't have a target for crosses in the box, however if we encourage Ronaldo to make the runs far post and Rooney's predatory instincts are honed (Rossi is already good at getting on the end of crosses but with his lack of height we'll need numbers to make them effective).

We will certainly find it difficult adjusting to life without a 9. But the team's goals shouldn't suffer too badly as Rossi should be prolific and Rooney's finishing will improve. Ronaldo's goal out-put should grow as well but the real benefit will be the goals that will come from players like Park and Jones/Scholes and even the anchor in midfield. I know I know you are saying how will they score? Well, when you've got 3 creative players in the team Rooney, Rossi and Jones/Scholes as opposed to just 1 right now, the chances are going to be multiplied. Jones will find he'll have more space and maybe a few more chances as well.

What do you guys think? Can we morph into a 9-less team? Is it a necessary move in the future and will it hurt us or drastically change the way we play?

[Vermont Red]

The only reason I would like a number 9 on the team is for the variety. I can imagine situations in which it would be useful to play with a number 9. One of United's problems, in my opinion, is that they don't seem to be very adaptable in tactics. I'd like to see us have a number 9 and be able to play both with him or without him. In the case of Arsenal, for instance, I think there are some games in which it would be useful for them to have Henry play off of a number 9.

[benni...]

Well said Vermont.

I will read the rest of Johno's post when I get back from practice. Good idea of a thread thouhg.

[Sofabloke]

Very interesting and timely post Jonno, here's my feelings on the subject ...

- Rooney plays in the 'hole', no scrub that, Rooney destroys teams by playing in the 'hole' - no #9 to occupy the centre-backs no 'hole' for Rooney to operate in, he is the classic withdrawn striker in a 4-4-1-1

- it only works for Arsenal because Henry is a bit special, plus in the Prem Arsenal have been sussed by some teams (Europe just hasn't caught up yet)

- many, many games in the prem are settled by headed goals from free-kicks or corners, especially those against packed defences, even if they don't score themselves, the #9 type player will again occupy the centre-backs

- like Vermont said, you need a plan B in this league, esp when chasing a game you will need three forwards and one will have to be a classic #9

- 'Peter Crouch', hate him as a player, think he is a really poor finisher, think he is poor in the air for a big guy (he can't jump), think his pace is woeful for a lanky guy - but talk to any 'pool fan and they will tell you that he has the centre-backs occupied to such an extent that Garcia, Gerrard have benefitted in open play and Hypia has benefited at corners / free-kicks

If Ruud goes (and hope he doesn't) then I think we should buy a #9 type player, but think we can get away without spending a fortune. As you said, Saha, Rooney & Rossi will keep teams occupied - get a good physical #9 to give some variation and we should get more goals from midfield too.

[Dark Savante]

Playing without a #9 is something Fergie is very comfortable and familiar with Hughes-McClair, Cantona-Hughse were both '9less' pairings. It's a workable system, but it requires:

a) A huge amount of chemistry and understanding betweent the two front men.

b) Compromise. As they will both want to drop deep, they have to accept that they can only alternate at best.

c) Wings absolutely stretching the field .

d) Goalscoring Wingers.

Points c & d are essential. You're reverting to a 4-2-4 in effect with an inside right and an inside left flanked by wing forwards who aim to get on the end of each others crosses and come deep into the box when each other is crossing.

The amount of movement and confusion you can muster without a #9 in a side with great chemistry is quite simply uncontainable. The Cb's have no one to mark, The opposing Dm's can't track the midfielder's because the forwards are crossing them up and the wings are constantly stretching and confusing the hell out of the opposition. Barca, even though they are playing a 4-3-3 often have their men lined up in a 4-2-4 as Eto'o drops deep, almost in line with Deco and both WF's are serious and genuine goal threats.

As Barca exhibit, chemistry and understanding have to be absolutely seamless for this system to work. The football we used to play with it was cavalier as well, the wings were massive, massive threats and the movement of the front two caused chaos.

There is no doubt this system could be utilised IF we get a proper winger to compliment Ronaldo on the other flank. Park is no way acceptable for this system, you need a genuine goal threat on both flanks and not just movement. They are pratically WF's and with that you're expecting at least 10goals from each flanker. The goal output is shared amongst the front 4 + 1 mid and if all of them hit at least 10 goals, you're laughing.

If you want to be truly cavalier you allow your FB's to overlap as well :eek: you'll concede, obviously, but if you can't score with so many commited to attack....well, you've got a worthless team. Any set-up worth its weight will pile up goals like this, but it takes an exceptional set of 4 (5) to make it work all MUST contribute goals or it wont work.

The reason I think we'll be in for Torres is that he can play a pseudo #9, but really hes a hybrid of a #10 and a #9 and would have absolutely no problem in a 4-2-4. It could definitely work with Rossi-Rooney, but team chemisty has to be absolutely peaked (that means no Ronaldo 'out there moments' ) and balanced for you to run with that for a whole campaign and rack up wins.

[Dark Savante]

On paper it starts like this (for us) a basic 4-4-2

--------------VDS
-------Rio----------Brown
G.N-------------------------Heinze
----------New Guy--Scholes
New Guy--------------------Ronaldo
-----------Rooney---Rossi

What it turns into during an attack:

--------------VDS
-------Rio----------Brown
G.N-------------------------Heinze
----------New Guy
---------------Scholes
---------Rooney------Rossi
New Guy---------------------Ronaldo

The WF's completely stretch the field and when one crosses, the other tries to get on the end of it. The two #10's come in from deep and Scholes is left to pick up the pieces or latch onto anything or ghost into the extra space. The opposing DM is absolutely overwhelmed and if the movement of the two 10's is good enough, they're going to serious stress the opposition backs.

IF you're really being bold. It becomes this:

--------------VDS
-------Rio----------Brown
----------------------------
----------New Guy
G.N-----------Scholes-------Heinze
---------Rooney------Rossi
New Guy---------------------Ronaldo

Forcing the whole half back, causing dual overlappers and allowing the WF's to get into the box as the attack splits (i.e G.N crosses> Ronaldo is in the box, the new guy moves towards Rooney and Rossi hangs back as does Scholes)

[Sofabloke]

Surprised you don't class Sparky as a #9 type player DS - would have him down as a 'classic' #9 (I guess we'll just have to disagree on this). I also reckon that having been a #9 type player himself (albeit a lightweight one who was good in the air), SAF would always favour playing a system that includes this type of player.

Q on the other hand, would just love to get rid of the 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 I feel. I guess that is what frightens me most about the thought of playing without a #9 - that it would see a return to the formations of the last few years which just didn't suit the club traditions or players and turned off the fans.

Here is my take on the different types of #9 type players

- pace (on the shoulder, eg. Cole, Owen, young pre-injury Shearer)
- power (heading & hold-up, eg. Hughes, Shearer, Heskey)
- poacher (six-yard box player, eg Ruud, Lineker, pre-pies Fowler, Shearer)

[Dark Savante]

Surprised you don't class Sparky as a #9 type player DS - would have him down as a 'classic' #9 (I guess we'll just have to disagree on this). I also reckon that having been a #9 type player himself (albeit a lightweight one who was good in the air), SAF would always favour playing a system that includes this type of player.

Q on the other hand, would just love to get rid of the 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 I feel. I guess that is what frightens me most about the thought of playing without a #9 - that it would see a return to the formations of the last few years which just didn't suit the club traditions or players and turned off the fans.

Here is my take on the different types of #9 type players

- pace (on the shoulder, eg. Cole, Owen, young pre-injury Shearer)
- power (heading & hold-up, eg. Hughes, Shearer, Heskey)
- poacher (six-yard box player, eg Ruud, Lineker, pre-pies Fowler, Shearer)

Do you remember the Oldham game in the FA Cup when we were moments away from being knocked out, only for Sparky to turn in a toe poke volley? Don't know why, but that game comes to mind right now. If you look at Hughes' work he was good at holding up the ball, but unlike the other two you mention Hughesy wasn't trying to bomb into a goal scoring position when he laid the ball off, he always hung 'about' not a 10 but not a typical 9 either, he would've scored more if he did have a 9's attitude as well, imo.

Rooney can also hold up the ball how Sparky used too and he also doesn't go bombing to a 9 position when he lays it off, but instead hovers around as runners over lap him getting into the box. I agree with your catergories btw, but Hughesy was never that guy who bust a gut to get on the end of things inside the box when he had the option to 'hover' that's how so many of his amazing volleys came about as well - hanging back and slamming home loose floaters.

[Sofabloke]

Do you remember the Oldham game in the FA Cup when we were moments away from being knocked out, only for Sparky to turn in a toe poke volley?

Sure do, one of my fave goals of all time. Mainly because I was was deadbeat because of work at that time and the season was not going all that well at that point IIRC. Can still remember the commentry 'Its hooked back in for Hugggggggghhhhhheeeessssss!!!!!!!!!!!' :)

I hear what you say with Hughes, he was a 'Power #9' with the intelligence to find space like a #10 - I guess it is harder to categorize the players from the past because they always had another striker to play alongside - so could vary things a bit more (provided they were smart enough and had that kind of finish from outside the box!).

Do you really feel that Rooney & Rossi could be a viable week-in, week-out pairing? From what I have seen of them (not that much in Rossi's case - I bow to your greater knowledge of the Reserves!) they appear too similar in the areas of the pitch they play best in.

At the moment, I like the look of our four strikers (provided that SAF doesn't sell Ruud and does start to play Rossi). Much like we had Cole as #9 with Yorke as #10 and ready-made replacements in Ole as #9 and Sheringham as #10, we now have Ruud as #9 and Rooney as #10 and Saha as replacement #9 with Rossi as replacement #10.

[Dark Savante]

Sure do, one of my fave goals of all time. Mainly because I was was deadbeat because of work at that time and the season was not going all that well at that point IIRC. Can still remember the commentry 'Its hooked back in for Hugggggggghhhhhheeeessssss!!!!!!!!!!!' :)

I hear what you say with Hughes, he was a 'Power #9' with the intelligence to find space like a #10 - I guess it is harder to categorize the players from the past because they always had another striker to play alongside - so could vary things a bit more (provided they were smart enough and had that kind of finish from outside the box!).

Do you really feel that Rooney & Rossi could be a viable week-in, week-out pairing? From what I have seen of them (not that much in Rossi's case - I bow to your greater knowledge of the Reserves!) they appear too similar in the areas of the pitch they play best in.

At the moment, I like the look of our four strikers (provided that SAF doesn't sell Ruud and does start to play Rossi). Much like we had Cole as #9 with Yorke as #10 and ready-made replacements in Ole as #9 and Sheringham as #10, we now have Ruud as #9 and Rooney as #10 and Saha as replacement #9 with Rossi as replacement #10.
To be honest, height is a massive problem between the two of them. If you look at our other non #9 pairing's they stood about 5'10 + and were all very strong players. We'd be using a foriegn system in the English game (two nippy, interlacing forwards) which would be something brand new. It's more the two wingers and the cohesiveness of the attack as a whole that would have to improve for it to work rather than just the front two. Rossi is a much more clinical finisher than Rooney, in fact his finishing is very 9ish indeed. He has been declared the best finisher at the club for some 14months now and the manager compared his finishing and temprament to Lineker - ice cold - but if you watch him play, all his goals and actions are those of a classic #10, he sets up 15-25 a season. I think he's made about 24 assists this term, the Burton game where he set up Saha about 4times (only for him to fluff most of them) is par for the course with Rossi and shows what he can do from deep.

If the pair alternate dropping deep then Rooney's finishing will have to improve somewhat when he becomes the #9. Rossi is a more competent passer and supplier than Rooney, but with twisted irony also a better finisher. On one hand it's better to exploit Rossi's finishing by having him ahead of Rooney, but on the other, he'll send Rooney through on goal more times than if the roles were reversed. It'd take a fair amount of work and it's very risky.

Personally, I'd just stick with a basic 9-10 pairing unless the two of them are tried as a 10-10 and prove absolutely irresistible in it (which would take a huge amount of good work from both wings as well) If Rossi were taller, I wouldn't be talking about hoping we get Torres in if Ruud goes, but it cannot be denied that his height combined with how he plays would be a massive hinderence to him as a #9. Usually players of his height that are 9's play like Owen or Defoe, but that's the last thing on Rossi's mind, he'd drop deep rather than ever try and turn and run forward.

[StrikerCW]

Rossi > Rooney by the way it sounds, DS :D

He is a better finisher. And a better supplier, passer, and assist man it seems already.

[Dark Savante]

Rossi > Rooney by the way it sounds, DS :D

He is a better finisher. And a better supplier, passer, and assist man it seems already.
Rooney has genius on his side ;) he alone can turn games upside down as well. He also doesn't 'need' specific types of player around him to function (you could put him in any team in the league - you couldn't do that with Rossi) Rossi is a classic #10 is all, Rooney is in his own world.

[StrikerCW]

Maybe this is just me without sleep and not wanting to go to sleep because I'll have to study for finals tommorow. But....

It seems to me (this may ALSO be me playing too much FM or WE) that a team doesn't nessecarilly NEED to have height.

I mean playing down the wings is an effective way of playing the game, yes. But why can't you just play on the ground, via through balls and playing to feet with short crisp passes all over the park, the entire time? Has there never been a team that played good possession waiting for the right moment then striking like the cobra in the jungles of Asia?

I don't think it would be so hard. Of course we would need a lot of new players. Need players that are extremely skillful, yet strong on the ball. All 6 players in the attack must be able to control the ball and pass well. It's just total football but all up front!!

If we get rid of just about the entire team, I think it's possible. Park isn't skilled nor strong enough. O'Shea isn't skilled enough, Fletcher not strong enough. Scholes/Giggs- gone.

If some of the youth players now can get some meat on their bones and be able to stand up to EPL challenges I could see this.

-------Rooney-----Rossi
Martin-------------------Ronaldo
--------Jones-------Gibson

Imagine. Every player can take the defender on (decently at least) they are all (hopefully) good at passing and keeping possession, if the team can work together and focus on this. All would be a liability for the opposition because they can all score from pretty much anywhere. There is always a chance for a sudden shot or through ball to the speed guys on the wings breaking the offside trap.

Man, I can see it now, it's a thing of beauty too. No more of this going up the wing and sending in ************ crosses either. We don't even need that anymore, just drop it back to the CMs and they will have a crack, or start over again further in the half.

Maybe that didn't make any sense literally or in a football sense. But it's always how I wished football was played..

[benni...]

Has there never been a team that played good possession waiting for the right moment then striking like the cobra in the jungles of Asia?

Urrh yeah, Chelsea, Ajax and Porto from the top of my head.

I would have said Barca, but most of the time it doesnt take long for them to strike. They initiate their own attack, and do not wait for their opponents to expose themselves (Barca that is).

[Dark Savante]

Maybe this is just me without sleep and not wanting to go to sleep because I'll have to study for finals tommorow. But....

It seems to me (this may ALSO be me playing too much FM or WE) that a team doesn't nessecarilly NEED to have height.

I mean playing down the wings is an effective way of playing the game, yes. But why can't you just play on the ground, via through balls and playing to feet with short crisp passes all over the park, the entire time? Has there never been a team that played good possession waiting for the right moment then striking like the cobra in the jungles of Asia?
Arsenal's unbeaten league campaign. They had height, but they didn't ever use it and had strikers that don't know how to head a ball so 95% of their game was on the ground. But again, look at the chemistry and semblance of that side, one of the best ever to grace the English game. It's precisely that level you need to play without a #9 and be so functional and effective.


I don't think it would be so hard. Of course we would need a lot of new players. Need players that are extremely skillful, yet strong on the ball. All 6 players in the attack must be able to control the ball and pass well. It's just total football but all up front!!
No problem! Let's put in a bid for Barca's front 5! Sorted!! :p


If we get rid of just about the entire team, I think it's possible.
:) Couldn't help but smile.


Park isn't skilled nor strong enough. O'Shea isn't skilled enough, Fletcher not strong enough. Scholes/Giggs- gone.

If some of the youth players now can get some meat on their bones and be able to stand up to EPL challenges I could see this.

-------Rooney-----Rossi
Martin-------------------Ronaldo
--------Jones-------Gibson

Imagine. Every player can take the defender on (decently at least) they are all (hopefully) good at passing and keeping possession, if the team can work together and focus on this. All would be a liability for the opposition because they can all score from pretty much anywhere. There is always a chance for a sudden shot or through ball to the speed guys on the wings breaking the offside trap.

Man, I can see it now, it's a thing of beauty too. No more of this going up the wing and sending in ************ crosses either. We don't even need that anymore, just drop it back to the CMs and they will have a crack, or start over again further in the half.

Maybe that didn't make any sense literally or in a football sense. But it's always how I wished football was played..
If all goes well, it could happen :) They have the talent, let's see if they have the aptitude and application.

[Invincible]

If Ruud is sold I will personally shoot Alex or whoever's responsible, in the face. That being said, I've been calling for a formation similar to Barcelona for sometime now, but my words fell on deaf ears.(or is that blind eyes?;) ) Anyway this is my dream for the team lineup next season.

-----------------Ruud---------------
-------------------------Rooney
--Ronaldo-----------------------
----------Riquelme-------------------Park
-------------------Mascherano/Diarra
Heinze------------------------------Neville
----------Vidic------Ferdinand
----------------VDS-----------

Or we could play a straight up Barcelona esque formation.

-----------------Ruud/Eto'o------------------
---Ronaldo/Dinho--------------Rooney/Messi
--------------Scholes/JRR/Deco
----------Jones/Iniesta----Dmid---------
Heinze/GVB----------------------------Neville/Belletti
-------------Vidic/Puyol---Ferdinand/Marques
-----------------VDS/Valdes

[johno]

Playing without a #9 is something Fergie is very comfortable and familiar with Hughes-McClair, Cantona-Hughse were both '9less' pairings. It's a workable system, but it requires:

a) A huge amount of chemistry and understanding betweent the two front men.

b) Compromise. As they will both want to drop deep, they have to accept that they can only alternate at best.

c) Wings absolutely stretching the field .

d) Goalscoring Wingers.

I agree with a, b and c.

I think Rooney and Rossi are both very intelligent and more importantly they are in my mind the right combination of selfless and selfish. Rooney has no fear of taking on a defence and the same goes for Rossi. They don't mind slipping by 2 guys and having a go and yet, they are both our best creators at senior and reserve level. I think chemistry wise they will form a good partnership.

Rooney has formed a good partnership with Ruud and with Saha. Rossi looked great next to Saha, Campbell and Blake. Although all of them have been 9-10 pairings but I think the fact that in literally no time they've looked superb means that they'll likely work well with almost anyone. It might take some work, but I think they will form a good partnership.

Points c & d are essential. You're reverting to a 4-2-4 in effect with an inside right and an inside left flanked by wing forwards who aim to get on the end of each others crosses and come deep into the box when each other is crossing.

I sorta agree with stretching the field with the wingers, but there are several ways to make it work. Arsenal did it with only one true winger. Pires and Ljunberg took turns providing width or cutting in and at times they both cut in. I think you need to have attacking wingers, but I don't necessarily subscribe to them having to be traditional touchline-hugging wingers.

The amount of movement and confusion you can muster without a #9 in a side with great chemistry is quite simply uncontainable. The Cb's have no one to mark, The opposing Dm's can't track the midfielder's because the forwards are crossing them up and the wings are constantly stretching and confusing the hell out of the opposition. Barca, even though they are playing a 4-3-3 often have their men lined up in a 4-2-4 as Eto'o drops deep, almost in line with Deco and both WF's are serious and genuine goal threats.

Barca is another example of the above as they don't have 1 true winger on their team. Ronnie, Giuly, Messi and Larsson have played the wings for them this season. Of course, they've got overlapping backs. I think their system obviously uses the fullbacks for width but there's nothing to say we can't have 1 winger providing width very often and another who alternates and then 1 fullback who can decide to stretch the field on occasion as well.

As Barca exhibit, chemistry and understanding have to be absolutely seamless for this system to work. The football we used to play with it was cavalier as well, the wings were massive, massive threats and the movement of the front two caused chaos.

I think they are an example of how teams with good passing will always succeed, more than anything else. 4 years ago Barca looked nothing like it does today.

Belletti, Sylvinho, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Deco, Messi and Larsson were all added since then.

Movement and passing is infective - if 2 or 3 people do it well, it will cause other players to do it as well.

There is no doubt this system could be utilised IF we get a proper winger to compliment Ronaldo on the other flank. Park is no way acceptable for this system, you need a genuine goal threat on both flanks and not just movement. They are pratically WF's and with that you're expecting at least 10goals from each flanker. The goal output is shared amongst the front 4 + 1 mid and if all of them hit at least 10 goals, you're laughing.

I think Park could work for different reasons. Without a true 9, Park's bursting runs up the middle would actually be very useful.

My take on it is that we require movement and good passing to make it work and I think that we need 2 CMs to make it work and another winger would be nice, but not completely necessary. We don't have to follow the formula Arsenal used, or use and we don't have to follow Barca. We can be United... the team with Rooney and Rossi.

[StrikerCW]

Urrh yeah, Chelsea, Ajax and Porto from the top of my head.

I would have said Barca, but most of the time it doesnt take long for them to strike. They initiate their own attack, and do not wait for their opponents to expose themselves (Barca that is).
I guess I'll just be Jose then. At least I'll win 3 CLs though.