So has the EPL proved itself now?

[Dark Savante]

As a top 2 league at the very least?

I ask because it seems on here no 'top league' gets as much insults and disrespect thrown at it as the EPL. Apparently with its thug defenders and mindless 'all heart' midfielders it plays an inferior brand of football to La Liga and Serie A.

In any debate about the leagues on here it isn't long before the usual comments are thrown out about the EPL. The problem is...... that for the past two years an English team has been in CL final. Ones, that aren't even in the top 5 places of their own title race...add Middlesbrough's Uefa Cup run (they are but a modest team in the English domestic league) and something is not correlating between the criticsms thrown at the league and the results the league is actually garnering in European competition.

We all know about the ban. 5yrs is a long time, the fallout from which took the league and its clubs a long time to recovery from, but if England are so apparently inferior to Spain and Italy how comes we still have the most European trophies of all three leagues despite having 5yrs missing from the history books?

I do think that English teams are again 'back' a resurgence to the days when English teams were ever presents in Semi's and Finals of European competition. Liverpool, as much as it pains me to say it, are again a serious contender, Chelsea and their money can not be overlooked, Arsenal seem to have finally 'cracked' it and Manchester United are obviously rebuilding and will soon be tossing their hat into the ring yet again. These four, at the very least, I would argue can be expected to reach the QF's of European comp from here-on-in. Is it an unfair statement?

When I look at the other nations and who they can expect to bring to the K.O rounds it's the usual names: Real, Barca, Milan, Juve, Bayern and Lyon. After that it gets a little hazy. PSV, Inter, Porto, Benfica are not teams you would expect to topple the names preceding them, of course anomalies happen, but overall the first set of names are seemingly everpresent the others are hit and miss on any given campaign, fair?

I think most people would be in agreement as to when each period of dominance came about for each league late 70's-mid 80's England, Early-mid 90's Italy, end of the 90's into the early 00's Spain, but now wouldn't logic suggest the tide is again turning in England's favour? This isn't supposed to be an inflammatory thread (and I'd thank the muppets not to make it so) but outside of Barca (who genuinely look like they alone could make an era for themselves) there isn't another team on the continent with its act together. RM need a massive rebuild, as do Milan at the back. Juve's team looked aged when it came up against the vitality of Arsenal, Inter are...Inter... Bayern will lose Ballack next term and other teams I've mentioned can lose their best players and basic infracstructure at any given time - hardly the solid foundations needed to become genuine CL contenders.

If you look at the English teams they are all young and vibrant and have minor problems to sort out in comparison. Liverpool: strikers, Man Utd: CM are the two that stand out, but both of these problems can be fixed in one transfer window and can be seen as the final pieces needed for each to make serious title and European Cup challenges (feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong) this trend is very similar to what happened with other nations before they became dominant - they needed a few minor tweaks where other nations needed to get a whole load of things sorted out. If you put the 4 English teams I've mentioned into a 4team knock competition you could get a different winner on any given day. I don't think you can say that for any other nation. Barca are head and shoulders above their own league, Milan or Juve would be expected to win in Italy and PSV/Lyon and Porto cakewalk their league every season at the moment. When you consider the strength of the teams from England who have gotten to the CL final two seasons in a row and they aren't even in their own domestic top 4, does that not reflect greatly on the strength of the league? And if that is the case, how can the PL be this brute, thuggish fest people are so brazenly wont to call it on here? You can't adopt the same tactics in Europe (for example that penalty last night, would not be called in the EPL) so how on earth are these 'thugs' getting to latter stages of the competition?

If it wasn't for Barca I'm not actually sure how people could claim any league could stand up to the English one right now? So how can it be of this poor quality and so supposedly inferior to Spain and Italy. The trophy haul is superior, the coefficient is second best (IIRC), there has been 2finalists in two years from the EPL, there is an EPL team in the SF of the Uefa Cup, they have 4 very serious teams to send into the CL every season(I haven't even mentioned Spurs), it could be argued that they have a monopoly on the best CB's in the world (Nesta, Puyol, Cannavaro being the only ones regularly mentioned on par) they have just as many world stars throughh the rest of their teams as any other nation can muster, perhaps even more (4teams as opposed to the 1,2 or 3 other nations can offer) so, where is this inferiority supposed to come from?

It has puzzled me for a long time as it is almost folklore to pull out the 'no skill - all thug' jibes when arguing against the EPL.

I've written out a considered piece. I don't think it's biased (present an argument against it if you think it is) so I would like this to be an intelligent conversation and not the spam and inflammatory remarks often seen when the top 3 leagues are discussed on here.

So is England at least top 2 or not? If not, why not?

[Colm]

As a top 2 league at the very least?

I ask because it seems on here no 'top league' gets as much insults and disrespect thrown at it as the EPL. Apparently with its thug defenders and mindless 'all heart' midfielders it plays an inferior brand of football to La Liga and Serie A.

In any debate about the leagues on here it isn't long before the usual comments are thrown out about the EPL. The problem is...... that for the past two years an English team has been in CL final. Ones, that aren't even in the top 5 places of their own title race...add Middlesbrough's Uefa Cup run (they are but a modest team in the English domestic league) and something is not correlating between the criticsms thrown at the league and the results the league is actually garnering in European competition.

We all know about the ban. 5yrs is a long time, the fallout from which took the league and its clubs a long time to recovery from, but if England are so apparently inferior to Spain and Italy how comes we still have the most European trophies of all three leagues despite having 5yrs missing from the history books?

I do think that English teams are again 'back' a resurgence to the days when English teams were ever presents in Semi's and Finals of European competition. Liverpool, as much as it pains me to say it, are again a serious contender, Chelsea and their money can not be overlooked, Arsenal seem to have finally 'cracked' it and Manchester United are obviously rebuilding and will soon be tossing their hat into the ring yet again. These four, at the very least, I would argue can be expected to reach the QF's of European comp from here-on-in. Is it an unfair statement?

When I look at the other nations and who they can expect to bring to the K.O rounds it's the usual names: Real, Barca, Milan, Juve, Bayern and Lyon. After that it gets a little hazy. PSV, Inter, Porto, Benfica are not teams you would expect to topple the names preceding them, of course anomalies happen, but overall the first set of names are seemingly everpresent the others are hit and miss on any given campaign, fair?

I think most people would be in agreement as to when each period of dominance came about for each league late 70's-mid 80's England, Early-mid 90's Italy, end of the 90's into the early 00's Spain, but now wouldn't logic suggest the tide is again turning in England's favour? This isn't supposed to be an inflammatory thread (and I'd thank the muppets not to make it so) but outside of Barca (who genuinely look like they alone could make an era for themselves) there isn't another team on the continent with its act together. RM need a massive rebuild, as do Milan at the back. Juve's team looked aged when it came up against the vitality of Arsenal, Inter are...Inter... Bayern will lose Ballack next term and other teams I've mentioned can lose their best players and basic infracstructure at any given time - hardly the solid foundations needed to become genuine CL contenders.

If you look at the English teams they are all young and vibrant and have minor problems to sort out in comparison. Liverpool: strikers, Man Utd: CM are the two that stand out, but both of these problems can be fixed in one transfer window and can be seen as the final pieces needed for each to make serious title and European Cup challenges (feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong) this trend is very similar to what happened with other nations before they became dominant - they needed a few minor tweaks where other nations needed to get a whole load of things sorted out. If you put the 4 English teams I've mentioned into a 4team knock competition you could get a different winner on any given day. I don't think you can say that for any other nation. Barca are head and shoulders above their own league, Milan or Juve would be expected to win in Italy and PSV/Lyon and Porto cakewalk their league every season at the moment. When you consider the strength of the teams from England who have gotten to the CL final two seasons in a row and they aren't even in their own domestic top 4, does that not reflect greatly on the strength of the league? And if that is the case, how can the PL be this brute, thuggish fest people are so brazenly wont to call it on here? You can't adopt the same tactics in Europe (for example that penalty last night, would not be called in the EPL) so how on earth are these 'thugs' getting to latter stages of the competition?

If it wasn't for Barca I'm not actually sure how people could claim any league could stand up to the English one right now? So how can it be of this poor quality and so supposedly inferior to Spain and Italy. The trophy haul is superior, the coefficient is second best (IIRC), there has been 2finalists in two years from the EPL, there is an EPL team in the SF of the Uefa Cup, they have 4 very serious teams to send into the CL every season(I haven't even mentioned Spurs), it could be argued that they have a monopoly on the best CB's in the world (Nesta, Puyol, Cannavaro being the only ones regularly mentioned on par) they have just as many world stars throughh the rest of their teams as any other nation can muster, perhaps even more (4teams as opposed to the 1,2 or 3 other nations can offer) so, where is this inferiority supposed to come from?

It has puzzled me for a long time as it is almost folklore to pull out the 'no skill - all thug' jibes when arguing against the EPL.

I've written out a considered piece. I don't think it's biased (present an argument against it if you think it is) so I would like this to be an intelligent conversation and not the spam and inflammatory remarks often seen when the top 3 leagues are discussed on here.

So is England at least top 2 or not? If not, why not?You've hit the nail on the head, I could never ever understand the premiership bashing myself. It's record in europe speaks for itself and theres a great big chance that an English team will win the champions league again this year.

[King-James]

If EPL clubs got better boardroom management and player management (assistant coaches and managers), the league could probably go ahead as clearly the best in the world. They have by far the most money... just need to learn how to use it (which is starting to happen)

[eop05]

Umm, I'd say top 3 no doubt, but it's always been that way.

Just like I would't say La Liga is definetely top 2 and neither is Serie A, for the simple reason that I'm not gonna say 1 league is better than the any of other 2. Because If I say Serie A is top 2 I'm saying it's definetely better than La Liga or EPL, and I won't make that assessment. It's not fair.

Every league has a good run in the CL for a period of time. English teams are having a good run. Italian teams have had a great run the past few years, and so has La Liga. To say any one league is better than the other is almost impossible to prove.

I don't bash other teams, and I don't bash other leagues. One thing is certain though, I can't stand when other people bash one of the 3 top leagues.

Actually, the only team I bash is my own (Juventus). Man, do they break my heart!!!

[Chuck-Puyol-Norris]

I would say they are top 2. They have a good record in Europe as of recent. Well, actually, if you look at it, only one English team made it to the quarters, while Italy had all the big three. But they still manage to make it to the final.

And the two English teams in the finals these years, Liverpool and Arsenal, have not gotten there by playing the most beatiful football. If you take the teams representing Italy and Spain today, they both have gotten here by playing some beautiful football and coming out and scoring goals, not just being content with a 1-0 or 2-0 lead from the 1st leg. (Arsenal did not even score once in the 2nd leg of a knockout stage).

The EPl is a great league, it is passionate, some teams play great football and some great goals are scored. But they could play better in the CL. Man Utd. came last in an easy group, the best of England got thrashed by the best in Spain, Liverpool could not score against Benfica and got thrashed at home, Arsenal play defensively and don't score many goals. English teams could do much better.

[kotto_bass]

I personally think there's been some level of luck with English teams in the last 2 years. No one talks about Liverpool today eventhough they won last year. I doubt anyone will talk much about Arsenal next year (even with their very impressive record this year), because we know the fact about these teams - They're simply having a fantasy ride :) Now, Chelsea is taking shape, but in CL these days, it is not a good thing when you are overrated. Now, consider the quarter finals in the CL this year. 1 French team, 1 English team, 1 Portuguese team, 2 Spanish teams, and 3 Italian teams. At this stage of the tournament, almost anything is possible. Milan's success in CL in the last few years has been the most impressive. So, if you ask me, I'd say Spanish teams and Italian teams have dominated in the last few years and English teams are coming with teams that are underestimated and seem to end up with a good run.

[Jamooky]

Excellent topic:

I think the EPL has proven itself because of what I call the "watchability" factor. Sure, you can try to quantify and compare the league by looking at trophies and European places and all that. But, as an American soccer nerd, I can tell you that there is no other league in the world that I would sit and watch a game between 2 bottom feeders. In other words, the style and brand of football played in England is simply more palatable and fun to watch than from what I've seen in the other top leagues this season. I know that this is a bit of a slippery slope and is pretty much entirely subjective, but think about it: What would you rather watch, Portsmouth v West Brom / Cagliari v Messina / Duisberg v Mainz / Cadiz v Malaga???

I'm guessing most neutral soccer fans would pick the English game, based on aesthetics, and the style of football being played.

Maybe I'm wrong, and relying too much on personal preferences, but IMO I dont think the EPL has anything to prove to the rest of Europe. In fact I'd say that the Series A and Bundesliga have some catching up to do

[sinner78]

I personally think there's been some level of luck with English teams in the last 2 years.

Arsenals run to the final is totally deserved and warranted on good performances.As was pools last season .I know you want to say that juves bland garbage display against arsenal was some how linked to "bad luck" but that aint the case .
simply shows the depth of the league when you can get different contenders in each season .the premiership now has 4 genuine contenders to take the cup in any given season.

You dont reach the final of the champions league with just luck.
Depends what your idea of "luck" is.
Like AC Milan ,a team that have been outplayed in some games and scored 90th minute goals to get through .Like against ajax in 2002 ,PSV in 2005 ,Lyon in 2006 .
so dont bore everyone with talk about "luck" .



No one talks about Liverpool today eventhough they won last year.

Liverpool also won the UEFA cup in 2001 and have a great overall record.
Its not like they are a team that came from nowhere to win.
they got one of the best records in euro history .If they enter the CL they are a contender in any given season without being the real TOP fave .
its not like it was ridiculous to state that they could win it ,despite the laughable posts made on the juve forum last season.



I doubt anyone will talk much about Arsenal next year (even with their very impressive record this year), because we know the fact about these teams - They're simply having a fantasy ride :)


Arsenal are building a team for the future .if you think they wont be around in the coming seasons than you are f'ckin cluless .

Teams come and go in Europe!! Juve havent won sh1t in europe since the mid 90s and they still have a big reputation based on the past .



Now, Chelsea is taking shape, but in CL these days, it is not a good thing when you are overrated.

They got a great squad and will contend in future seasons .They WILL win the CL at some point .


Now, consider the quarter finals in the CL this year. 1 French team, 1 English team, 1 Portuguese team, 2 Spanish teams, and 3 Italian teams. At this stage of the tournament, almost anything is possible.


the composition of the last 8 of the champions league varies from season to season.

2004/2005 - 3 italian ,2 english ,1 French ,I german ,1 dutch (note no spanish team )
2003/2004 - 1 italian ,2 english ,2 french ,2 spanish ,I portuguese


varies from season to season.



Milan's success in CL in the last few years has been the most impressive. So, if you ask me,


They are the only italian team who really contended consistently.



I'd say Spanish teams and Italian teams have dominated in the last few years and English teams are coming with teams that are underestimated and seem to end up with a good run.

Thats bullsh1t when you look at the teams who compose the latter stages.
the teams in the last 8 are very evenly spread.
if arsenal win the CL this season we will have 2 straight titles with different teams .who else could make such a claim in modern history???


The prem is a deep league with depth.
even a team like boro can make a run deep into europe taking out the likes of roma ,stuttgart ,etc along the way .
the armchair fanboys who know little about soccer are gonna have to stop blaming everything on "luck" and wake up and smell the coffee .

[BocaFan]

Excellent topic:

In other words, the style and brand of football played in England is simply more palatable and fun to watch than from what I've seen in the other top leagues this season. I know that this is a bit of a slippery slope and is pretty much entirely subjective, but think about it: What would you rather watch, Portsmouth v West Brom / Cagliari v Messina / Duisberg v Mainz / Cadiz v Malaga???

I'm guessing most neutral soccer fans would pick the English game, based on aesthetics, and the style of football being played.

Hmmm... that definitely is a slippery slope, but I see your point. I think its b/w EPL and La Liga for the best league.

And just to be picky, the equivalent of Cadiz v Malaga would be Portsmouth v Sunderland, not Portsmouth - West Brom Albion. Portsmouth v Sunderland was a thriller last weekend. Cadiz v Malaga play in a couple of weeks, and I expect that to be just as gripping from a neutrals POV (if Cadiz are still alive in the promotion fight).

[Sempre]

I give this thread a day before it's in World Rivalries. Thanks,
DS.

As for the topic . . . . I really don't see that the EPL needs to
prove anything, and that's why the thread itself confuses me. In
addition to being a popular league, its teams are very competitive
in Europe and no one can still believe that EPL teams are behind
the curve in terms of tactics and sophistication--Wenger and Rafa
have disproved that notion, for sure. As a championship, it's very
cosmopolitan and I notice good young English managers are coming
up, too. Seems healthy to me.

Still, before sinner and the God-save-the-Queen bridage come out
in full force, let's keep something in mind our colleague Spartak has
posted recently:

Italy, Spain, and England are all tied at 10 for most European
Cup/Champions League winners. But you can't ignore the fact that Italy
has also had 14 other teams reach the final and Spain 9. England, by
contrast has only had 2 losing finalists. What this says is Italy has been
far more competitive throughout the European Cup's history than England.
And that takes into account the European ban on England.

Perspective. ;)

[yasik19]

i'd say EPL is 2nd. Right behind MLS.

[lanman]

Just a couple of quick points.

Average points per game played by all teams in all European competitions up to last season.

England 1.43
Spain 1.39
Italy 1.41

That's a difference of only 1 point for every 50 games played.

Success rate - how many teams entered into European competition for every trophy won.

England - 8.89
Spain - 10.92
Italy - 10.52

[Hazzathewazza]

I give this thread a day before it's in World Rivalries. Thanks,
DS.

As for the topic . . . . I really don't see that the EPL needs to
prove anything, and that's why the thread itself confuses me. In
addition to being a popular league, its teams are very competitive
in Europe and no one can still believe that EPL teams are behind
the curve in terms of tactics and sophistication--Wenger and Rafa
have disproved that notion, for sure. As a championship, it's very
cosmopolitan and I notice good young English managers are coming
up, too. Seems healthy to me.

Still, before sinner and the God-save-the-Queen bridage come out
in full force, let's keep something in mind our colleague Spartak has
posted recently:

Italy, Spain, and England are all tied at 10 for most European
Cup/Champions League winners. But you can't ignore the fact that Italy
has also had 14 other teams reach the final and Spain 9. England, by
contrast has only had 2 losing finalists. What this says is Italy has been
far more competitive throughout the European Cup's history than England.
And that takes into account the European ban on England.

Perspective. ;)


But then take away the five years English teams were banned and English teams would have a better record. remember before English teams were banned they were dominating the European Cup. So if you are taking losing finalists into account, then you have to take the ban into account, which would of made England top for champions league winners.

[West 'am 'till I die]

Something I noticed was the spread of different British clubs who have won the European Cup in comparisson to Italy and Spain (Milan and Real Madrid account for most of their respective country's titles)

whereas Nottingham Forest, Liverpool, Man Utd, Celtic, Aston Villa and now possibly Aresnal have claimed the title....

[Hazzathewazza]

Something I noticed was the spread of different British clubs who have won the European Cup in comparisson to Italy and Spain (Milan and Real Madrid account for most of their respective country's titles)

whereas Nottingham Forest, Liverpool, Man Utd, Celtic, Aston Villa and now possibly Aresnal have claimed the title....


Whats Celtic got to do with the English game?

[glennaldo_sf]

i'd say EPL is 2nd. Right behind MLS.

Nah.. I'd say 3rd. The top three leagues in the world are:

1) MLS
2) USL
3) EPL

:D

[West 'am 'till I die]

i'd say EPL is 2nd. Right behind MLS.


I agree but only because Wayne Rooney aint fit to clean the sh*t off Landon Donovan's boot's :rolleyes:

[West 'am 'till I die]

Whats Celtic got to do with the English game?


I said British clubs ...... but I also know this thread is about EPL

[yasik19]

Whats Celtic got to do with the English game?

they speak English.

[West 'am 'till I die]

they speak English.


Nah they don't.... trust me