So has the EPL proved itself now?

[Gregoriak]

Let me get back to the late-70s and 80s. Many posters state that English clubs would have gone on winning the European Cup in the late 1980s.

But the fact that English clubs won the Cup six times in a row is not really an argument. This must rate as one of the luckiest streaks ever in the history of football.

It wasn't as if English clubs set the football world on fire with their performances during those years. If you look at the finals, most of them were pretty dull affairs. English clubs were tremendously lucky to have won the 1980 and 1982 finals, when they should have lost as they were outplayed considerably.

The 1978 final between Liverpool and Bruges (1-0) wasn't a massive show of force by Liverpool. Had it been played in a neutral venue or even somewhere in Belgium, Bruges probably could have won it as well.

The 1979 final (Forest vs. Malmö 1-0) is generally rated as the poorest ever in the history of the competition. Had Forest faced a stronger team in the final, it could have well lost.

In 1981, Liverpool won deservedly but again didn't send shivers down everyone's spine with their performance vs. Real (1-0).

In 1984, Liverpool could have just as well lost the penalty shoot-out.

If the 1985 final had been a regular game, what makes people assume Liverpool would've won it? Juventus was a lot stronger than Roma in 1984 plus both Liverpool and Juventus had met in a competitive game in January 1985, with Juventus winning without much problems (2-0, game held in Turin).

Another thing English fans have to factor in when comparing English achievements with those of Serie A in the late-70s/early-80s is that Italian teams still had to play without foreign players, while English teams were packed with non-English players. In fact, the most instrumental players in English clubs were oftentimes Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh or Irish. English clubs could field as many non-English players as they liked, while European clubs were only allowed to use 2 foreign players during those years. So when English posters are bursting with pride, they should remember that it wasn't an all-English affair with English clubs those days (just like today).

And finally, despite English clubs winning the European Cup six times in a row, they were still not the top league in Europe according to UEFA's 5-year ranking between 1977 and 1984, as they didn't do as well in the UEFA Cup or Cup Winners Cup (the highest the English First Division got was #2).

[sinner78]

Possibly the most laughable post ever. That was a dumb post hall of famer.
Im astonished.



But the fact that English clubs won the Cup six times in a row is not really an argument. This must rate as one of the luckiest streaks ever in the history of football.

So all the wins in the other rounds were also "lucky"?
I suppose they just "lucked" their way through rounds one ,two ,quarter finals and semi finals too??
and no other team from any other country ever had any "luck" ever in those years in the 70's and 80s?
pardon me if I tell you to shut the f'ck up on that allegation.

Every team that wins in any given year needs an element of luck. Like the german national team .If they didnt have any luck they would have zero cups.


It wasn't as if English clubs set the football world on fire with their performances during those years. If you look at the finals, most of them were pretty dull affairs.

Well if taking the best club title in world club football 6 years straight (7 years out of 8) isnt setting the world on fire then what is???
The brand of football played by the liverpool teams of that era was hardly dull. Nottingham forest under brian clough played great football .


English clubs were tremendously lucky to have won the 1980 and 1982 finals, when they should have lost as they were outplayed considerably.

They won it and have their name on the cup .Incompetence of the opposition isnt "luck" .If Bayern munich in 1982 missed chances than that is their own incompetent finishing that cost them.
Not like it was down to dubious officiating or anything .
The type of dubious officiating which helped Bayern munich beat leeds in 1975 in Paris. Thats my idea of "luck".

In 1982 aston villa were ravaged by injuries and had to play their youth goalkeeper Nigel spink in goal .And yet you have the nerve to brand them "lucky" just because of Bayern munichs own inept display in front of goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1981-82



The 1978 final between Liverpool and Bruges (1-0) wasn't a massive show of force by Liverpool. Had it been played in a neutral venue or even somewhere in Belgium, Bruges probably could have won it as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1977-78

on the route to the final they eliminated both west and east german champions .With a win in the semi final over Borussia Mönchengladbach ,4-2 on aggregate . I suppose you'll tell me that liverpool were lucky in their victories in every round on route to the final??


The 1979 final (Forest vs. Malmö 1-0) is generally rated as the poorest ever in the history of the competition. Had Forest faced a stronger team in the final, it could have well lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1978-79


Nottingham forest eliminated german champions Koln in the semi final.
Looking at the teams in the field they beat the best along the way.
So to say they "could well have lost" if they had played a stronger team is pure fantasy .

Nottingham forest also won the 1980 contest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1979-80

Once again defeating both west and east german teams along the way.
not to mention ajax amsterdam. See the pattern of beating germanys best teams .This is obviously the source of your laughable bitterness on this topic .


In 1981, Liverpool won deservedly but again didn't send shivers down everyone's spine with their performance vs. Real (1-0).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1980-81


Liverpool once again eliminated the german champions Bayern Munich in the semi .Shock horror!!!!
They beat the best 2 opponents in the field so dont talk to me about "sending a shiver down the spine" with a 1-0 win .How many times have german teams bored us with a mind numbing penalty shootout victory??



In 1984, Liverpool could have just as well lost the penalty shoot-out.

hahahhah now you;re just being ridiculous.
liverpool beat Roma in their own stadium .
Im rolling in the aisles here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_1983-84



If the 1985 final had been a regular game, what makes people assume Liverpool would've won it? Juventus was a lot stronger than Roma in 1984 plus both Liverpool and Juventus had met in a competitive game in January 1985, with Juventus winning without much problems (2-0, game held in Turin).

Juve took that title deservedly .Hey you cant win every year.



Another thing English fans have to factor in when comparing English achievements with those of Serie A in the late-70s/early-80s is that Italian teams still had to play without foreign players, while English teams were packed with non-English players. In fact, the most instrumental players in English clubs were oftentimes Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh or Irish. English clubs could field as many non-English players as they liked, while European clubs were only allowed to use 2 foreign players during those years. So when English posters are bursting with pride, they should remember that it wasn't an all-English affair with English clubs those days (just like today).

Yep ,players from places like wales and Northern ireland .Not exactly world beating nations .Not like they imported guys from brazil and argentina.
Players from other local UK states .Local lads from the Britain!!!!!

Real madrid were stockpilled with the best imports way back when the contest started .I dont see anyone knocking their efforts.


And finally, despite English clubs winning the European Cup six times in a row, they were still not the top league in Europe according to UEFA's 5-year ranking between 1977 and 1984, as they didn't do as well in the UEFA Cup or Cup Winners Cup (the highest the English First Division got was #2).

European cup is the top contest .
Winning that contest is far superior to winning either the uefa or CWC.

In the UEFA cup between 77 -84 ,English clubs won two UEFA cups .
1981 - Ipswich
1984 - tottenham

2 is more than other other nation won in that period.

http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~mirad/cgi-bin/EC/ecsearch.cgi?PG=77&KG=84&KU=4&RU=8&D1=&D2=&T1=&T2=


as for the CWC

That contest is easily the weakest cup and doesnt count for much really.
But historically english clubs have won more CWC than any other nation.




So gregoriak...
You go down as the worst poster I have ever encountered.
Im still in disbelief at your attempt to rewrite history.
During this period english clubs totally owned german teams.
thats say it all.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I see sinner is posting substandard WR shite on other boards again. Time for him to be put back in his box. :rolleyes:

[sinner78]

I see sinner is posting substandard WR shite on other boards again. Time for him to be put back in his box. :rolleyes:


point out which bits you disagree with,sweaty.
You cant reply to what I said.
you got nothing .

[Teso Dos Bichos]

All of it.

[sinner78]

All of it.


when you feel like putting up a reply then get back to me.
we can go over each point.

[Gregoriak]

Take it easy, Sinner. Neg repping is only something upset little girls do.

[sinner78]

Take it easy, Sinner. Neg repping is only something upset little girls do.


lol ,where is the reply to my post??

you got nothing.
I debunked your little "luck" theory.
I guess things got alittle heated ,but hey....at least I took the time to reply.
hehe

[Spion Kopite]

Let me get back to the late-70s and 80s. Many posters state that English clubs would have gone on winning the European Cup in the late 1980s.

But the fact that English clubs won the Cup six times in a row is not really an argument. This must rate as one of the luckiest streaks ever in the history of football.

My god, I just don't know where to begin here. Winning the European Cup 6 times on the trot was a 'lucky streak' was it? What? THREE DIFFERENT English teams?? Dear me. My oh my. Winning the cup 6 times on the trot, plus another win in 1984 and another final in 1985-and let's not forget the final Leeds were in just before the run began- and you have English clubs in NINE out of the previous eleven finals, winning seven of those 9 finals. The two losses were in 'dubious' circumstances to say the least.....yet you call this a 'lucky streak'. Jesus, are you Joseph Goebbels in desguise considering the spin you come out with????

It wasn't as if English clubs set the football world on fire with their performances during those years. If you look at the finals, most of them were pretty dull affairs. English clubs were tremendously lucky to have won the 1980 and 1982 finals, when they should have lost as they were outplayed considerably.

So? Bayern Munchen were pretty lucky in ALL THREE of their winning finals but nobody harps on about this as far as I know.

The 1978 final between Liverpool and Bruges (1-0) wasn't a massive show of force by Liverpool.

The semi finals against the second best team in Europe was though. And if you actually watched the 1978 final you will see that Bruges put 11 men behind the ball for almost the whole match...pretty much as Steaua Bucharest did to Barcelona in 1986. Only in Liverpool's case they had a touch of genius from Kenny Dalglish to make the breakthrough. That's the difference.

Had it been played in a neutral venue or even somewhere in Belgium, Bruges probably could have won it as well.

Hehe, yeah right. The year before, Liverpool destroyed a far better team in Monchengladbach in a 'neutral' venue. Oh and by the way, as if when Liverpool are in a final the venue is neutral? Their fans almost always take over the stadiums. Witness Istanbul last year. 45,000 to 50,000 Liverpool fans in the stadium as opposed to around 15,000 Milan fans.

The 1979 final (Forest vs. Malmö 1-0) is generally rated as the poorest ever in the history of the competition. Had Forest faced a stronger team in the final, it could have well lost.

Really? I can name the Bucharest and Red Star Belgrade wins as far poorer finals.

In 1981, Liverpool won deservedly but again didn't send shivers down everyone's spine with their performance vs. Real (1-0).

That was not a vintage year for Liverpool. They finished 5th in the English league, their worst performance between 1972 and 1992. During that 20 year run, Liverpool only finished outside the top two on one occasion.........in 1981. 1981 was Liverpools poorest league season in 20 years. However despite this, they still had more than enough experience to overcome both Munchen and Madrid....and deservedly so against both teams.

In 1984, Liverpool could have just as well lost the penalty shoot-out.

Yes, but Liverpool largely controlled 75% of that game and had more chances than Roma, despite it being a home game for Roma in their own ground and not a 'neutral' venue. Considering that, I can argue that Liverpool won on away goals AND a penalty shootout. Imagine that final being at Anfield? That's the advantage Roma had...but they still couldn't win.

If the 1985 final had been a regular game, what makes people assume Liverpool would've won it?

Because they were a better team than Juve. Liverpool, were reigning European Champions (were Juve?), the best and most consistent team in Europe and they finished higher in their domestic league that year than Juventus. Liverpool had never lost a European Cup final while Juve were used to losing them. Added up, all this poinst to a Liverpol win more likely than a Juve win.

Juventus was a lot stronger than Roma in 1984 plus both Liverpool and Juventus had met in a competitive game in January 1985, with Juventus winning without much problems (2-0, game held in Turin).

And had the game been at Anfield instead of Turin then Liverpool would most likely have beaten Juve 2-0. The Super Cup was pretty meaninless and a bit silly that season seeing as it was played in Juve's own ground. Also, Liverpool were struggling in the English league around the time they played Juventus in the Super Cup. There were around 15th place. They then went on a good run to finish second.

Another thing English fans have to factor in when comparing English achievements with those of Serie A in the late-70s/early-80s is that Italian teams still had to play without foreign players, while English teams were packed with non-English players. In fact, the most instrumental players in English clubs were oftentimes Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh or Irish. English clubs could field as many non-English players as they liked, while European clubs were only allowed to use 2 foreign players during those years. So when English posters are bursting with pride, they should remember that it wasn't an all-English affair with English clubs those days (just like today).

A popular misconception. As a matter of fact, the Liverpool team that won the European Cup in Rome in 1977 had NINE Englishmen in the team. Only Joey Jones (Welsh) and Steve Heighway (Irish) were non English. The 1978 Cup winning side had EIGHT Englishmen and the 1981 team also had EIGHT Englishmen. It was only the mid and late 80s Liverpool side where Englishmen were in the minority...so in fact Liverpool dominated Europe (let's not also forget the 1973 and 1976 UEFA Cup winning sides) with mostly Englishmen in their teams so you are incorrect.

And finally, despite English clubs winning the European Cup six times in a row, they were still not the top league in Europe according to UEFA's 5-year ranking between 1977 and 1984, as they didn't do as well in the UEFA Cup or Cup Winners Cup (the highest the English First Division got was #2).

Oh well that settles it. The European Cup only left English shores once between 1977 and 1984 but the English league wasn't the top league because UEFA didn't say so? Do you really put any credibility in these kind of statistical rankings? I don't.

I'll tell you what, if you do then maybe you agree with this list then which says Liverpool are the top club in the world between May 2005 and April 2006, with Inter Milan in second place.

http://www.iffhs.de/?17f7370eff3702bb1c2bbb6f28f53510f42e00fa2d17f73702fa3016e23c

Nope, I don't believe they are either. They aren't. Yet the rankings say so. LOL.:p

[The Potter]

Let me get back to the late-70s and 80s. Many posters state that English clubs would have gone on winning the European Cup in the late 1980s.

But the fact that English clubs won the Cup six times in a row is not really an argument. This must rate as one of the luckiest streaks ever in the history of football.

It wasn't as if English clubs set the football world on fire with their performances during those years. If you look at the finals, most of them were pretty dull affairs. English clubs were tremendously lucky to have won the 1980 and 1982 finals, when they should have lost as they were outplayed considerably.

The 1978 final between Liverpool and Bruges (1-0) wasn't a massive show of force by Liverpool. Had it been played in a neutral venue or even somewhere in Belgium, Bruges probably could have won it as well.

The 1979 final (Forest vs. Malmö 1-0) is generally rated as the poorest ever in the history of the competition. Had Forest faced a stronger team in the final, it could have well lost.

In 1981, Liverpool won deservedly but again didn't send shivers down everyone's spine with their performance vs. Real (1-0).

In 1984, Liverpool could have just as well lost the penalty shoot-out.

If the 1985 final had been a regular game, what makes people assume Liverpool would've won it? Juventus was a lot stronger than Roma in 1984 plus both Liverpool and Juventus had met in a competitive game in January 1985, with Juventus winning without much problems (2-0, game held in Turin).

Another thing English fans have to factor in when comparing English achievements with those of Serie A in the late-70s/early-80s is that Italian teams still had to play without foreign players, while English teams were packed with non-English players. In fact, the most instrumental players in English clubs were oftentimes Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh or Irish. English clubs could field as many non-English players as they liked, while European clubs were only allowed to use 2 foreign players during those years. So when English posters are bursting with pride, they should remember that it wasn't an all-English affair with English clubs those days (just like today).

And finally, despite English clubs winning the European Cup six times in a row, they were still not the top league in Europe according to UEFA's 5-year ranking between 1977 and 1984, as they didn't do as well in the UEFA Cup or Cup Winners Cup (the highest the English First Division got was #2).


Some sour grapes there.Six wins in a row lucky? hmmmmm.

[Gregoriak]

lol ,where is the reply to my post??

you got nothing.
I debunked your little "luck" theory.
I guess things got alittle heated ,but hey....at least I took the time to reply.
hehe


Not so fast. I don't live in these forums like some other people seem to.

[Spion Kopite]

Some sour grapes there.Six wins in a row lucky? hmmmmm.

The funny thing is, I think he actually believes it. That's pretty......disturbing to say the least.:eek:

[The Potter]

The funny thing is, I think he actually believes it. That's pretty......disturbing to say the least.:eek:


I really liked the part about the UEFA coeffecient. Who cares if a league owns the European Cup for nearly a decade, the coeffeceint say's they aren't the best.

I also loved his logic about the 1979 final. If Malmo (who earned their place in the final) were a better team Forest may not of won. He may as well say Brazil didn't deserve their win in 2002 because Germany weren't a very good team.

Some hilarious stuff.:D

[Gregoriak]

So all the wins in the other rounds were also "lucky"?
I suppose they just "lucked" their way through rounds one ,two ,quarter finals and semi finals too??
and no other team from any other country ever had any "luck" ever in those years in the 70's and 80s?
pardon me if I tell you to shut the f'ck up on that allegation.

Any league that wins six straight European Cups has had a nice share of luck, unless they deposed of their opponents in each final with convincing results like, say, 4-1, 5-2, or 3-0. From 1978 to 1982, the standard result was 1-0, the closest winning result that there is. Where did I imply that other teams never had any luck? Of course all teams that go on to win trophies need luck. The English clubs that won six straight European Cups weren’t that strong as this streak might suggest, even Liverpool – undoubtedly one of the greatest sides ever - only really played one great European Cup final during those years and that was the 1977 one.


Well if taking the best club title in world club football 6 years straight (7 years out of 8) isnt setting the world on fire then what is???
The brand of football played by the liverpool teams of that era was hardly dull. Nottingham forest under brian clough played great football .
Maybe you didn’t notice it in England, but on the continent people were bored to death by these dull 1-0 victories. It was arguably the dullest phase ever in the history of the European Cup.

They won it and have their name on the cup .Incompetence of the opposition isnt "luck" .If Bayern munich in 1982 missed chances than that is their own incompetent finishing that cost them.

They were lucky to meet teams in the final that had a bad day. If Bayern had been their usual self in the final, they could have won by two goals at least. Things like that happen, a superior team failing to convert one or some of its many chances – the inferior team does have a lot of luck if they meet their opponent on such a day. Think about last year’s World Club Championship final, I still remember very vividly how English fans were whining and moaning about Liverpool losing the final against that Brazilian side, despite totally dominating them. That’s the same thing. That Brazil club team was pretty lucky that day.

Not like it was down to dubious officiating or anything .
The type of dubious officiating which helped Bayern munich beat leeds in 1975 in Paris. Thats my idea of "luck".

Leeds should have gotten a penalty, no doubt. And they were dominating Bayern. But that Lorimer goal was ruled off-side correctly. Bayern still would have scored 2 goals and won it.


In 1982 aston villa were ravaged by injuries and had to play their youth goalkeeper Nigel spink in goal .And yet you have the nerve to brand them "lucky" just because of Bayern munichs own inept display in front of goal.

Nigel Spink later became an England international, he was a pretty good keeper. He was 24 at the time, thus not really a youth keeper. Kept on playing for Villa until 1996, 317 appearances in the first division. Hats off to his performance. Doesn’t change the fact that Villa was the clearly inferior team. Which other players other than standard keeper Rimmer were not playing that night? Let me hear about those all-time legends that Villa was missing due to injuries in that game.

BTW, talking about injuries. In the 1975 final, Bayern’s Swedish international right back Björn Andersson got injured by Terry Yorath already after four minutes. He had to finish his career after that foul. In came inexperienced youth player Sepp Weiss, who played a great game that night. Uli Hoeness also had to leave the pitch after an injury after 30 minutes. And you have the nerve to brand them “lucky”!
on the route to the final they eliminated both west and east german champions .With a win in the semi final over Borussia Mönchengladbach ,4-2 on aggregate . I suppose you'll tell me that liverpool were lucky in their victories in every round on route to the final??

The final step to winning a trophy is the final, that’s what I was talking about. Don’t make such a great deal out of beating the East German champions. The East German league was not that strong, due to the Communist authorities having a say in which team got to win what. Often the best teams had to bow down to those clubs that were “sponsored” by the secret state service.

But you’re right, Liverpool were a great side, I’m not denying that. They showed one of the best ever performances when beating Gladbach 3-0 at Anfield in 1978. Inexplicably, they kind of lost their form when the final came around. They could have lost to Bruges if that game had been held in Belgium, not in England.


Nottingham forest eliminated german champions Koln in the semi final.
Looking at the teams in the field they beat the best along the way.
So to say they "could well have lost" if they had played a stronger team is pure fantasy .

Cologne were playing like crap in the Bundesliga that season, they had a very troubled season, at times it looked like they would get relegated. They didn’t take Forest serious enough after the 3-3 away draw, thought they were already through. They got what they deserved.

Nottingham forest also won the 1980 contest.


Once again defeating both west and east german teams along the way.
not to mention ajax amsterdam. See the pattern of beating germanys best teams .This is obviously the source of your laughable bitterness on this topic .

The 1980 final was almost as lucky for the English team as the 1982 final. Hamburg were the superior side, but were disadvantaged that their best weapon – center forward Horst Hrubesch – was plagued by injuries and only came into the game by the second half, but he wasn’t fit and it clearly showed. With an in-form Hrubesch up front, playmaker Magath behind him and supported by Kevin Keegan and Manfred Kaltz’s dangerous crosses, the likeliness of Forest winning that game would have dropped dramatically. Just check how Hamburg thrashed Real Madrid in the semi final (5-1), Hrubesch was massive in that game (also later sealed the German victory in the European Championship in Italy that summer).

Ajax Amsterdam was not the same calibre as in the early-70s.


Liverpool once again eliminated the german champions Bayern Munich in the semi .Shock horror!!!!
They beat the best 2 opponents in the field so dont talk to me about "sending a shiver down the spine" with a 1-0 win
So ‘pool got thru on away goals in the semi final. Hardly the most impressive way of advancing. Indeed they beat the two best opponents but compared to other eras in European football, these two opponents were not that impressive. Nobody rates the Real Madrid or Bayern teams of the early 1980s as some kind of legendary sides.
How many times have german teams bored us with a mind numbing penalty shootout victory??
First of all, penalty shoot-outs are hardly mind numbing. Secondly, when it comes to winning European Cups in penalty shoot-outs, keep in mind that English teams won three of their European Cups that way (1984 EC1, 1984 EC3 and 2005 CL). German teams also won three of their European trophies that way (1988 EC3, 1997 EC3, 2001 EC1). So you shouldn’t point your finger at German penalty shoot-out victories.

hahahhah now you;re just being ridiculous.
liverpool beat Roma in their own stadium .
Im rolling in the aisles here.

The game ended 1-1. It was a draw. What Liverpool beat Roma in was the penalty shoot-out, not the 120 minutes of play. Roma could have won that penalty shoot-out as well.



Yep ,players from places like wales and Northern ireland .Not exactly world beating nations .Not like they imported guys from brazil and argentina.
Players from other local UK states .Local lads from the Britain!!!!!
But not English. I see English fans claim bragging rights for the performances of their sides in Europe, the same England fans that like to talk disrespectfully of Scotland, for example. Yet they forget that many of their English sides’ strongest players were Scots, Northern Irish or Welsh.. English clubs could field 11 non-English players if they liked at a time when European clubs were not allowed to field more than 2 foreign players. Something that should not be forgotten when the success of English clubs is discussed. They were only partly English.

Real madrid were stockpilled with the best imports way back when the contest started .I dont see anyone knocking their efforts.

But never more than two. Unlike English clubs, who could play with 11 non-English British players if they wanted to. And who were the great Brazilian and Argentine players Real Madrid had in the early 80s? None. It was Uli Stielike and Laurie Cunningham. Hardly the best imports one could think of.

European cup is the top contest .
Winning that contest is far superior to winning either the uefa or CWC.

Yes it is. But the overall strength of a league was best measured in the UEFA Cup.

In the UEFA cup between 77 -84 ,English clubs won two UEFA cups .
1981 - Ipswich
1984 - tottenham

2 is more than other other nation won in that period.

German clubs won the UEFA Cup twice as well during that period (1979, 1980). Plus the 1979-80 UEFA Cup semi final was an all-German affair (the previous year three German clubs made it to the semi). No other league ever had four clubs in a European semi final.

[Gregoriak]

OK, I'm a bit in a hurry. Will deal with Spion Kopite's post a bit later.

[Spion Kopite]

I also loved his logic about the 1979 final. If Malmo (who earned their place in the final) were a better team Forest may not of won. He may as well say Brazil didn't deserve their win in 2002 because Germany weren't a very good team.

Some hilarious stuff.:D

Hehe, yeah that's it in a nutshell. Maybe he can also compailn that Seville might not have won last night had Boro been a better team? Geez, that's FOOTBALL.:rolleyes:

[Real Madrid rocks!]

You've hit the nail on the head, I could never ever understand the premiership bashing myself. It's record in europe speaks for itself and theres a great big chance that an English team will win the champions league again this year.

Nobody is trying to bash the premiership but I understand those who get tired of programs like Fox Football Friday or the Fox Sports World Report. These shows spend almost all the time they have on the air talking about English soccer, as if the premiership was the most important league. Hopefully they will be less biased. Why so much coverage of English football? The Spanish League is in my opinion better that the English. True, the premiership is faster paced but soccer is mostly about SKILL, and in that respect, La Liga beats the premiership big time.

[BocaFan]

They could have lost to Bruges if that game had been held in Belgium, not in England.


The 1978 final between Liverpool and Bruges (1-0) wasn't a massive show of force by Liverpool. Had it been played in a neutral venue or even somewhere in Belgium, Bruges probably could have won it as well.

So wait, unless an English team wins the EC final in the country of their opponent, it doesn't really count?


The game ended 1-1. It was a draw. What Liverpool beat Roma in was the penalty shoot-out, not the 120 minutes of play. Roma could have won that penalty shoot-out as well.


Good to see you're being consistent. :rolleyes:

[BocaFan]

Nobody is trying to bash the premiership but I understand those who get tired of programs like Fox Football Friday or the Fox Sports World Report. These shows spend almost all the time they have on the air talking about English soccer, as if the premiership was the most important league.

It is the most important league to that channel.

[unclesox]

Geez, lots of harsh words all over.
But I think both sides are making fair points.

Here's my two bits on it all. From a born and bred Californian no less! I fully expect many "shut-up Yank" comments to follow, so there you go. :p


As mentioned, Bruges stayed in their own half and was willing to soak up the pressure to, most likely, try to win the '78 cup on penalties. Tough to find fault with Liverpool here.

The '81 final needed an early goal to make the match interesting, but it didn't come. It took a mistake by a Real defender to allow Alan Kennedy in to score the winner. So yes one could say a bit of luck was needed in the final, but knocking out Bayern in the semis justifies Liverpool winning the cup as both were firm favorites before the tournament began.

It goes without saying that something special is needed to win a one-off final on the opponent's home turf. Even if victory comes by way of penalties, it at the very least shows that Liverpool's '84 win needed extreme focus and concentration - as well as luck - to overcome the noise and passion that the Roma faithful brought to their ground.

Aston Villa, 1982? A lot of luck in this one (imo) as Bayern rained in shot after shot. Unfortunately for the Bavarians, it just wasn't their night as Spink kept everything out and Villa netted an unlikely winner. The Bayern-Dusel may have been alive in the finals of the mid-70s, but hey, "you live by the sword, you die by the sword".
As for the 24-year-old Spink, I believe this was his inaugural appearance with the first team, albeit as a sub.

As for Nottingham Forest's two wins, here's a quote from Brian Clough he made in 2001:
-- "It's a different game in Europe, more cat-and-mouse. When I won two European pots in a row, we won 1-0 on both occasions, and they were crap games. But we just weren't good enough to play free-flowing, attacking football in those two campaigns, so we had to plan accordingly. And they said I knew nowt about tactics..."
- FourFourTwo #84, August 2001
(Love quoting Cloughie :D )

I don't know if the "English Empire" that won 7/8 Champions Cups from 77-85 was a "lucky streak", but it's interesting to note that the English national team didn't perform too well during this time, Spain'82 perhaps being the exception.


During this period english clubs totally owned german teams.
thats say it all.
Depends on how you look at it.

The coeffecients (ah, "those coeffecients") suggest that the Bundesliga as a whole was more dominating than the English 1st Division in UEFA play until the mid-80s came along:

-- 1976/77-1980/81
1 West Germany 52.284
2 England 38.760

-- 1977/78-1981/82
1 West Germany 51.999
2 England 37.902

-- 1978/79-1982/83
1 West Germany 54.118
2 Spain 34.999
3 England 34.426

-- 1979/80-1983/84
1 West Germany 43.618
2 England 37.950

-- 1980/81-1984/85
1 England 41.093
2 Italy 38.800
3 West Germany 37.070

In 1979, 3/4 UEFA Cup semifinalists were WGerman clubs.

In 1980, ALL FOUR UEFA Cup semifinalists came from the Bundesliga. And a fifth was beaten in the quarters!


HOWEVER, when English and West German clubs opposed each other head on, we get a very different outlook:
(hopefully I didn't overlook any)

1977
UEFA 3R: QPR - FC Koln 3-0, 1-4
EC Final: Liverpool - Borussia Mgb 3-1

1978
EC Semi: Borussia Mgb - Liverpool 2-1, 0-3

1979
UEFA Qtr: Man City - Borussia Mgb 1-1, 1-3
EC Semi: Nottingham Forest - FC Koln 3-3, 1-0

1981
EC Semi: Liverpool - Bayern Munich 0-0, 1-1
UEFA Semi: Ipswich Town - FC Koln 1-0, 1-0

1982
CWC Qtr: Tottenham - Eint Frankfurt 2-0, 1-2
EC Final: Aston Villa - Bayern München 1-0

1983
CWC 2R: Tottenham - Bayern München 1-1, 1-4

1984
UEFA 2R: Kaiserlautern - Watford 3-1, 0-3
UEFA 3R: Bayern München - Tottenham 1-0, 0-2

12 matchups total
10 England wins
2 WGermany wins



Anyways, Gregoriak's initial reply was about how some are suggesting that English clubs would've continued dominance had the Heysel ban not been applied.

I think it's a bit ignorant to say that just because english clubs often won the trophy pre-Heysel they also would've won it during the ban. (If indeed it has been said - haven't gone through every thread on this board)
But no doubt, Everton and Liverpool would have been amongst the favorites at lifting the trophy. And in a knock-out cup competition, anything goes.
It's just a shame that we'll never know the answers.

Okay, fire away at the Yank! :D