Do You Think America Has Been Helped By The Referee Through History?

[Memento]

Question: Do you think America was helped by the referee work in the CONCACAF cup Final against Toluca?Do you think America has been helped by the referees to win titles(like against Toluca in Concacaf) or to reach important moments in their history?

I expect some answers.
There are no proofs.Of course.But isn't it strange that America somehow is always involved in this kind of scandals where they are helped by the men in black.

Their club history is full opf this kind of sport scandals ,even before TV Azteca existed? Why is it that it is always a scandal?

TO THE MODERATORS:

THE ISSUE IN THIS TOPIC IS TO DISCUSS IF AMERICA WAS HELPED DURING A GAME BY THE REFEREE AND IF THIS HAS BEEN THROUGHT OUT THEIR HISTORY.THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE GAME OF AMERICA VS TOLUCA.IT IS A POLL,TO GATHER THE OPINION FROM THE USERS TOWARD AN ISSUE THAT OCCURRED DURING THE GAME AND THAT HAS OCCURRED IN OTHER OCASSIONS.PLEASE BE CRITICAL AND JUDGMENTAL AND DO NOT USE YOUR RESPONSABILIRIES AS A CENSORSHIP TOOL.

Thank You

[Piedraias]

yes. ...

[terrible15]

yes...no doubt

[LMvCP]

America, since its beginning has always been a great team. Sure, they had their bad spells (late 40s and early 50s) and the (90s).. but overall, they are the most successful team in Mexican league history. They have the most wins (League and Cup), they have the most points (League and Cup), they have scored the most goals (League), they have participated the most times in league finals, they have won the most league finals. Its only natural that other teams want to take down America at any cost and feel cheated when things dont go their way. I personally do not think that it is a coincidence that America has participated in the most fights. SOmething about playing America really tends to ignite hatred/passion.

however... 2 nights ago.... Noticiero TD showed 4 games where America was eliminated due to bad officiating and they showed 4 games where America advanced on bad officiating. It goes both ways.

[terrible15]

America, since its beginning has always been a great team. Sure, they had their bad spells (late 40s and early 50s) and the (90s).. but overall, they are the most successful team in Mexican league history. They have the most wins (League and Cup), they have the most points (League and Cup), they have scored the most goals (League), they have participated the most times in league finals, they have won the most league finals. Its only natural that other teams want to take down America at any cost and feel cheated when things dont go their way. I personally do not think that it is a coincidence that America has participated in the most fights. SOmething about playing America really tends to ignite hatred/passion.

however... 2 nights ago.... Noticiero TD showed 4 games where America was eliminated due to bad officiating and they showed 4 games where America advanced on bad officiating. It goes both ways.


Televisa owns America of course they wouldn't say anything bad about the team they own...

[Memento]

America, since its beginning has always been a great team. Sure, they had their bad spells (late 40s and early 50s) and the (90s).. but overall, they are the most successful team in Mexican league history. They have the most wins (League and Cup), they have the most points (League and Cup), they have scored the most goals (League), they have participated the most times in league finals, they have won the most league finals. Its only natural that other teams want to take down America at any cost and feel cheated when things dont go their way. I personally do not think that it is a coincidence that America has participated in the most fights. SOmething about playing America really tends to ignite hatred/passion.

however... 2 nights ago.... Noticiero TD showed 4 games where America was eliminated due to bad officiating and they showed 4 games where America advanced on bad officiating. It goes both ways.

Of course it is natural that when a club like America has 80 + years of existence ,yu can have cases where America has been afected by the bad callings from the referee.But it is more consistenthow they somehow are able to be helped "just a little bit" by the referee.

America does not have more titles than Chivas.They are equal and greatness is measures by how many league titles you win.The rest is pure trash because there are no real cmpetitions (before Liberatdores) in where mexican teams competed.

Still ,America (like Chivas) have many years of existence but only have 10 titles? that is no greatness in any other country, like Spain,Germany,Italy,Holland,Argentina,fRANCE,eNGLAND AND YOU CALL IT.
the mexican league is very competitive but with a very low class level.

[LMvCP]

Televisa owns America of course they wouldn't say anything bad about the team they own...

You obviously missed the point. It was meant to put things into perspective.

It was meant that America has been on the winning and losing end of bad officiating.

[LMvCP]

Of course it is natural that when a club like America has 80 + years of existence ,yu can have cases where America has been afected by the bad callings from the referee.

But it is more consistenthow they somehow are able to be helped "just a little bit" by the referee.

Do you have proof of how they have been consistantly helped? Do you remember explicitly the games from the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, and so on?

America does not have more titles than Chivas.They are equal and greatness is measures by how many league titles you win.

America has Titles than Chivas. America has more More Cup titles, more Concacaf Titles, more InterAmerian Cup titles than Chivas. Chivas has 1 international title compared to America's 8.

And for any Chivas fan (or any fan for that matter) to disregard Cup titles. Well, then they disregard Campeonismo. You mean to tell me that Campeonismo now doesnt mean anything? Did they not wirte songs about it? Did they not make movies about it? OHHH BUT THEY WANT TO DISREGARD CUP TITLES NOW BECAUSE AMERICA HAS MORE.. i get it

The rest is pure trash because there are no real cmpetitions (before Liberatdores) in where mexican teams competed.

Copa Interamericana?

Why is that title a legit title for Pumas and not for America?

Not even Cruz Azul, Toluca, or even Chivas were ever able to win it?


Still ,America (like Chivas) have many years of existence but only have 10 titles? that is no greatness in any other country, like Spain,Germany,Italy,Holland,Argentina,fRANCE,eNGLAND AND YOU CALL IT.
the mexican league is very competitive but with a very low class level.


Holland? Argentina? France?

The Mexican league is much more competitive than the Dutch league. Even Leo Beenhaker and Westerhoff have said it.

You show me another league that has 10 clubs that have deep pockets. America may not have 40+ League titles like Rangers, but then again.. America has to compete with clubs that are backed financially by corporations that are as rich or richer (ie Cemex, Banamex (Citi), Femsa, etc).

10 - America
10 - Chivas
08 - Cruz Azul
08 - Toluca
05 - UNAM
05 - Leon

that is a VERY competitive league

[jared9999]

Toluca shouldn't even have been in the CCC. How about them buying chiquidraculas who redcarded 3 monterrey players in the mexican final. Where's the poll for that? Or chivas who thanks to the ref they tied pumas in the final. the ref gave that penalty to chivas even though the foul was a mile outside the PK box. ahi no dicen nada cabrones!

[chivisima]

Yes! Americanistas can say whatever they want to, as always, is tham against the rest.
My opinion, is that they have been helped A LOT!!!!

[LMvCP]

My opinion, is that they have been helped A LOT!!!!

Your opinion is welcomed. But how do you back up your claim? You can give a couple instances, but you cant tell me that my club has been helped out more than yours or anybody else without facts nd taking into account every season.

Reasons as to why favortism (from an officiating standpoint) does not exists.

1. ratio between seasons played and different champions

how many season have been disputed since the professional era? Some 61-62 season right?(which we still have not surpassed 65).

And from those 60+ seasons, how are the titles distributed within the league?

10 - America
10 - Chivas
08 - Cruz Azul
08 - Toluca
05 - UNAM
05 - Leon [no longer in 1st division]
03 - Necaxa
03 - Pachuca
02 - 7 clubs tied [2 clubs no longer in 1st division]
01 - 8 clubs tied [5 clubs no longer in 1st division]

23 clubs out of the 54 clubs that have played in the 1st division have won atleast one championship. That is almost half.

Where am I going with this? That those that want to cry foul play need to look no further than our champions.

2. The implementation of the playoff (liguilla)

Since 1970, the league has crowned its champion through series of post season matches. Who thought of this? Well, one of the people that wanted it was Canedo. Canedo was associated with Televisa, but no longer was an exec of Televisa because he had an FMF position. After the 70 WC, he saw how exciting the knock out stages were and went with it after WC. It was being contemplated before, but seeing it 1st hand on a grand scale convinced him (and a few others) that this was the healthiest thing for the league (from a financial and competitive standpoint)

Why would a team with infinite amount of resources (stadium, practice facilities, youth system, high price players) be in favor of a system that could offset those advantages? Why would they accept a system where a team score the most goals, acquire the most points and then crash in a 2 games series against a team that barely has enough to make ends meet?

The anwser is quite simple...competition. Televisa/Azcarraga maybe a lot of different things to different people, but one thing that I will always admire them for is that they understood the concept of competition and helped raised the level of their fellow rivals.

Cruz Azul was promoted in 64. They played in little ass Jasso, Hidalgo. If you know where that is at or have ever passed through there, you will know that you cant have a huge local support. Where did they move in 1971? Mexico City. Where did they play their home games? Estadio Azteca, home of Club America. Why would a club owner allow a new team to move in with the threat of possibly taking away fans? Why give your rival teams sweet television deals that televise them in prime time hours?

3) Implementation of the relegation playoffs and percentages

For more then 40 years, our worst teams have been helped out with the creation of the relegation playoffs & aggragate percentages. Lets not forget that some have avoided relegation all together by buying up a promoted team and dressing them up as a new team.

This is most blatant act of cheating. This goes far beyond an offise goal or a hand ball, because these acts are not premeditated.

Some of you guys can fall for the crap that stupid spaniard coach said about foul play (referring to dorado's coach)... but when you have 3 years (6 seasons) to get your act together or else face the consequences of relegation... you have NO ONE but to to blame except yourself (execs, players, etc)

---------------------------------------------

in a nutshell... dont believe indian prophecies when America has won 10 league titles out of 60+ seasons. Dont fall for the indian prophecies when America went 13 years without winning a league title.

[sparkchronic]

why dont we poll if we think jaguares are vendidos instead especially since its own home crowd was chanting it during and after the game

but sure things like this are hushed but omg san luis beats america and you scream out vendidos on the street corners

[TURI9]

Every team has received help from the ref. Unintentional or intentional. Doesnt matter. You cant really blame the team for what a ref does. You people need to grow some balls. Its always "America this, America that". fukc off already. See things how they are. It aint that the ref is always helping them. You people just tend to make it a bigger deal when its America. If it was any other team, then whatever who cares right? Its pretty annoying.

[Rafael Hernandez]

America has been helped by the refs a lot more than americanistas claim and a lot less than every other fan accuses them of.

[Rey_Azteka]

chingen a su madre todos los que dicen que les ayudan a la america... EVERYONE.


everytime something happens with america... they make it into this BIG deal... any little thing... they use headsets. " OMG america officials are using headsets "

" cuauhtemoc is a crybaby cuahtemoc is a dirty player, cuahtemoc is unprofessional " .... blah blah !!!


perfect example... Rafa Marquez he is one dirty son of a bitch... most people dont see it casue there too close to his nut sack sucking his dick.. but yet hes mexicos " salvation "

i say ******** him.

[maul31]

yes .............

[Memento]

Do you have proof of how they have been consistantly helped? Do you remember explicitly the games from the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, and so on?

I do not havee proof that they have been helped.
But YOU don't have probe to say they haven't been helped either.




America has Titles than Chivas. America has more More Cup titles, more Concacaf Titles, more InterAmerian Cup titles than Chivas. Chivas has 1 international title compared to America's 8.

And for any Chivas fan (or any fan for that matter) to disregard Cup titles. Well, then they disregard Campeonismo. You mean to tell me that Campeonismo now doesnt mean anything? Did they not wirte songs about it? Did they not make movies about it? OHHH BUT THEY WANT TO DISREGARD CUP TITLES NOW BECAUSE AMERICA HAS MORE.. i get it



Copa Interamericana?

Why is that title a legit title for Pumas and not for America?

Not even Cruz Azul, Toluca, or even Chivas were ever able to win it?



Holland? Argentina? France?

The Mexican league is much more competitive than the Dutch league. Even Leo Beenhaker and Westerhoff have said it.

You show me another league that has 10 clubs that have deep pockets. America may not have 40+ League titles like Rangers, but then again.. America has to compete with clubs that are backed financially by corporations that are as rich or richer (ie Cemex, Banamex (Citi), Femsa, etc).

10 - America
10 - Chivas
08 - Cruz Azul
08 - Toluca
05 - UNAM
05 - Leon

that is a VERY competitive league

1.I do not havee proof that they have been helped.
But YOU don't have probe to say they haven't been helped either.
Just because you don't have proof of a crime or corruption doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What im saying is that America has always lived with that shadow OF DOUBT behind them, because through history in many stances they have had referee callings that incrediblyfavor them,like against Toluca in the Concacaf final.

2. Copa Interamericana, Copa Concacaf,and any international title ANY mexican club before is an absolute joke, because of competition value.That is the reason why those stupid tournament's don't exist anymore and do not have a tradition of decaes like Libertadores and the European Cup.

Why is it then that some people say that the greats participation from a mexican club in an INTERNATIONAL TOURNAMENT has been so far Cruz Azul vs Boca Juniors at the Libertadores.It is because of the value of the tournament itself.

Or why does "your so called great" Copa Interamericana doesn't exist anymore? huh?tHAT IS THE REASON WHY MORE MEXICAN CLUBS WHERE ABLE TO WIN IT, BECAUSE IT DISSAPEARED.

TRASH.you just see too much Televisa.

3. Just because more teams have won titles it meabs it is very competitive.WRONG!!!

Look at many other leagues around sports. How many teams in the NFL have won many superbowls? How many teams have won many titles in the NBA?.

Competition is not measured because many different teams win titles. That is low class competition, not high class.

The mexican league does not have the competitive level of countries like Spain,France,England,Italy or Germany because of their system of playing.

What do you think is more easy to happen?

That a team like Osasuna,Sevilla,Villareal,Parma,Bolton Wanderers or Bayer Leverkusen win the Mexican title (who has been won by almost everybody in Mexico) or that America,Chivas or Necaxa win La Liga , Premiership League,or the Italian League? where the only way to be champion is to be the BEST from 17 or 19 teams during the whole year.

Please answer me!!

OH and remeber, in most countries you dont have the Liguilla mediocre spectacle.

OH AND PLEASE DONT TALK ABOUT WHERE DOES MONEY FLOW MORE IN EUROPE OR IN MEXICO. DO YOU KNOW WHO SPONSORS MANY LOW CLASS TEAMS FROM EUROPE?

[Memento]

why dont we poll if we think jaguares are vendidos instead especially since its own home crowd was chanting it during and after the game

but sure things like this are hushed but omg san luis beats america and you scream out vendidos on the street corners

WE DONT POLL BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A RULE THAT SAYS THAT JAGUARES WILL NEVER BE BEATEN IN THEIR HOME.

THE CROWD CAN CHANT STUPID THINGS LIKE THAT BECAUSE THEY SUPPOSE THAT THE LEADER JAGUARES MUST BEAT A WEAK TEAM LIKE DORADOS.

BUT... JAGUARES AIN'T THAT GRAT TEAM THAT CANCRUSH ANY TEAM.DONT BE STUPID.PLEASE.THINK!!

THINGS GET DIFFERENT WHEN YOU SAY SAN LUIS VS AMERICA BECAUSE THEY ARE OWN BY THE SAME COMPANY. IF SAN LUIS GOES TO PRIMERA A THE COMPANY LOSES A LOT OF MONEY.

THAT IS THE GREAT PROBLEM WHEN TWO OR THREE TEAMS ARE OWNED BY THE SAME PERSON, IT MAKES YOU THINK THAT CORRUPTION CAN TAKE PLACE.

I MEAN,SAN LUIS WAS ABLE TO BEAT NECAXA AND AMERICA BY 3 OR MORE GOALS BUT WASN'T ABLE TO BEAT VERACRUZ?

THINK!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP BEING IGNORANT.

[jared9999]

The mexican league does not have the competitive level of countries like Spain,France,England,Italy or Germany because of their system of playing.

ja! i would like to see lyon win 5 straight titles in mexico

[sparkchronic]

before calling me ignorant you should take that chip outta your head
both jaguares and dorados are supported by the same televisora
and the same way i made that statement with no merit is the same way your making it of america san luis
just cause their owned by the same company their atomatically corrupt
i hear all these claims but no proof
jaguares was superlider and were playing slow and only reacted in scoring goals when the crowd started chanting vendidos
america has been doing poorly and is on the verge of not qualifying and when they lose theirs an uproar