The Italian Philosophy of Football

[Sir Martin Keown]

Okay, so we're 1-0 down at home in the first leg, we need a goal... mmmmm

I know, let's substitute Pirlo, one of our playmakers who can change a game in an instant. Bring Maldini on who is 48 years old and isn't what he used to be... while we're at it let's take off Gattuso, the only player on the pitch who looks like he cares and bring on the guy we always bring on who will probably miss a complete sitter.... do we have any more oap's on the bench, ahh yes, Cafu, get on there lad... show them youngsters how it's done!

Was it Lippi who said last week that Italian teams have such a lack of trust in youth and inexperience?... he was right, just look at The Arsenal, we hardly have a player that's over 30 and we made the Serie A leaders Juve look like a bunch of old ladies. Good riddance to Italian teams, they bore the life out of me.

[giallorossissimo]

Pirlo has been playing like crap for the last few months, especially against Barca where his mistake almost cost a goal.

Maldini was brought on to bolster the defense who Barca ran circles around at times, constantly on the threat of goal.

Gattuso had a yellow card and would have been suspended for the final if he got booked again. He was unable to control Ronaldinho and Ambrosini was the only available option.

Cafu has really not been all that bad this season despite his age.

Basically, Milan did not come prepared for this match. Pippo was injured, forcing Sheva and Gila to supply the goals. Both of them failed and as soon as Barca scored and showed the signs of adding another goal, Ancelotti decided to cut his losses and strenghten the defense.

Blame the loss on the performance of the team, especially the non-existant strikers, not the management decisions.

[Sir Martin Keown]

You make some good points but where is the youth in your squad?, apart from Kaka I see a bunch of reliable 30+ players, very good ones but to have youth in a squad would give you that unpredictability and pace you so lacked last night. Lyon also showed against you in the last leg that youth is very important in a team, they should also of beaten you.

[eop05]

You make some good points but where is the youth in your squad?, apart from Kaka I see a bunch of reliable 30+ players, very good ones but to have youth in a squad would give you that unpredictability and pace you so lacked last night. Lyon also showed against you in the last leg that youth is very important in a team, they should also of beaten you.

First of all, stop talking like Milan was crap yesterday because they had the bulk of the chances and deserved, if not a win, at the very least a tie.

Milan had about 5-6 real chances, while Barcelona had about 3 and scored on One of them.

Now, I'm not taking anything from Barca. They played great, and won the game fair and square, but let's be real, they did not outpace Milan, they did not make Milan look old, and Milan was not unpredictable. Milan simply didn't FINISH their opportunities. Milan were not outpaced as Juve were against Arsenal. Do Not compare Milan to Juve, because that is just an insult to Milan. Juve were outpaced, outplayed, unpredictable, and old looking. All of which Milan was not in the Barca game. They just unfortunately came out on the losing end of a game where I believe they were the better side

The outright hatred for Italian Soccer from some of the Premier League fans has got to settle down. It's almost as if you're not only Premier League fans, but your fans of every team that plays an Italian side.

[Sir Martin Keown]

First of all, stop talking like Milan was crap yesterday because they had the bulk of the chances and deserved, if not a win, at the very least a tie.

Milan had about 5-6 real chances, while Barcelona had about 3 and scored on One of them.

Now, I'm not taking anything from Barca. They played great, and won the game fair and square, but let's be real, they did not outpace Milan, they did not make Milan look old, and Milan was not unpredictable. Milan simply didn't FINISH their opportunities. Milan were not outpaced as Juve were against Arsenal. Do Not compare Milan to Juve, because that is just an insult to Milan. Juve were outpaced, outplayed, unpredictable, and old looking. All of which Milan was not in the Barca game. They just unfortunately came out on the losing end of a game where I believe they were the better side

The outright hatred for Italian Soccer from some of the Premier League fans has got to settle down. It's almost as if you're not only Premier League fans, but your fans of every team that plays an Italian side.

I think you're in denial..... you also completely sidestep my point about the lack of youth in Serie A teams, I trust you know the Italian game so give me your opinion...

AC started the brighter and shackled Ronalindho well in the first half, but in the second after Barce scored AC looked clueless in trying to get a goal back, I would of thought they were defending the 1-0 lead!

I don't come on here often enough to see if there is a general dislike of Serie A but I can understand it. The approach of your teams to games is boring, you play a rigid game. Not all of course, but I only see your teams through the CL.

As for you being insulted that I compare you with Juve, tell me where you stand in the league....

[divinocodino1018]

How ironic. I remember earlier in the Champion's League, Man U needed a goal versus Benfica and they subbed their best player, Christiano Ronaldo. Don't question another league's decisions when a team from your own league did the same thing.

[Sir Martin Keown]

Don't question another league's decisions when a team from your own league did the same thing.

Oh, please accept my sincere apologies.....

...these Italian fans are a tad sensitive

[divinocodino1018]

Oh, please accept my sincere apologies.....

...these Italian fans are a tad sensitive

I don't need any apologies. Your facts were turned around on you and had nothing to say but a satirical comment.

[Sir Martin Keown]

I don't need any apologies. Your facts were turned around on you and had nothing to say but a satirical comment.

Okay then, if I must....

I can't recall that moment but I trust it happened, all I can say on that is that Man U have trusted in young players all season and they have actually had a good domestic season with these youngsters. Lippi actually used Man U and Arsenal as the examples of teams who had faith in youth, the Italian teams prefer to play it safe and keep on rolling out the OAP's.......... you still haven't given me an insight on that, you just keep on sidestepping

[gumbacicc]

Okay, so we're 1-0 down at home in the first leg, we need a goal... mmmmm

I know, let's substitute Pirlo, one of our playmakers who can change a game in an instant. Bring Maldini on who is 48 years old and isn't what he used to be... while we're at it let's take off Gattuso, the only player on the pitch who looks like he cares and bring on the guy we always bring on who will probably miss a complete sitter.... do we have any more oap's on the bench, ahh yes, Cafu, get on there lad... show them youngsters how it's done!

Was it Lippi who said last week that Italian teams have such a lack of trust in youth and inexperience?... he was right, just look at The Arsenal, we hardly have a player that's over 30 and we made the Serie A leaders Juve look like a bunch of old ladies. Good riddance to Italian teams, they bore the life out of me.

I agree with your criticism of Ancelotti's tactics but you employ absolutely ridiculous logic.

For one, the lack of youth players has nothing to do with the first part of your post. Anyone who knows anything about Italian football would know that the most successful sides that we have had had many experienced players on the side, and much less youth players. Take a look at the Italian sides that have won the CL trophies . . . you know, the trophy that you hav not won. Those sides generally comprised of players in their last 20s and early 30s.

Second, I would attribute Juve's failure to our own tactical decisions more than anything Arsenal did. Capello made some shockingly poor tactical decisions and didn't even try to attack you guys so we never even got going.

Finally, you demonstrate your bias in the last sentence so you should not be taken seriously as is.

[divinocodino1018]

Okay then, if I must....

I can't recall that moment but I trust it happened, all I can say on that is that Man U have trusted in young players all season and they have actually had a good domestic season with these youngsters. Lippi actually used Man U and Arsenal as the examples of teams who had faith in youth, the Italian teams prefer to play it safe and keep on rolling out the OAP's.......... you still haven't given me an insight on that, you just keep on sidestepping

I wouldn't say Milan are an old team aside from the backline. Milan have made just as far as Arsenal has so obviously, their "old team" must be doing something right. Arsenal have a younger team but both have made it to the same point in the Champion's League so I don't see how bashing another domestic league is going to justify your point. Furthermore, Barcelona are the best team in Europe and are projected to be a historic team if all goes right.

[gumbacicc]

I wouldn't say Milan are an old team aside from the backline. Milan have made just as far as Arsenal has so obviously, their "old team" must be doing something right. Arsenal have a younger team but both have made it to the same point in the Champion's League so I don't see how bashing another domestic league is going to justify your point. Furthermore, Barcelona are the best team in Europe and are projected to be a historic team if all goes right.

But let's see Arsenal maintain this success with their youth year in and year out like Milan do. Milan have been in the semis 3 of the last 4 seasons. Arsenal generally crap out out CL so I don't understanding why you are taking this year and making it the rule. How did you guys do last season?

[kotto_bass]

Okay, so we're 1-0 down at home in the first leg, we need a goal... mmmmm

I know, let's substitute Pirlo, one of our playmakers who can change a game in an instant. Bring Maldini on who is 48 years old and isn't what he used to be... while we're at it let's take off Gattuso, the only player on the pitch who looks like he cares and bring on the guy we always bring on who will probably miss a complete sitter.... do we have any more oap's on the bench, ahh yes, Cafu, get on there lad... show them youngsters how it's done!

Was it Lippi who said last week that Italian teams have such a lack of trust in youth and inexperience?... he was right, just look at The Arsenal, we hardly have a player that's over 30 and we made the Serie A leaders Juve look like a bunch of old ladies. Good riddance to Italian teams, they bore the life out of me.

How myopic you are? Milan has been the most dominant team in CL within the last 4 yrs. This is Arsenal's first year in the semi finals, and you guys act like you've won the CL. Barca has a lot of respect for Milan and they'll know better that this matchup is not over. If Milan scores first in the return tie, it's a whole new ball game. There are times when CL has respect for youth (Ajax '95), and there are times when experience counts (almost all the other winners so far). Some players peak at a later age, like Ballack, and it seems you have a problem with that. I prefer a close game with low scores than a blowout. Italians had 3 teams in the quarter finals, and that to me is very impressive (more than any other European country). Let's see how Arsenal holds up for the rest of the campaign and subsequent yrs. Then let's have this discussion again.

[divinocodino1018]

But let's see Arsenal maintain this success with their youth year in and year out like Milan do. Milan have been in the semis 3 of the last 4 seasons. Arsenal generally crap out out CL so I don't understanding why you are taking this year and making it the rule. How did you guys do last season?

Gumba, take it easy, I'm a Serie A fan. I root for an Italian team over anyone else. Serie A uses experience over the youngsters because thats the style like you said. I'm just telling this guy that this year, Milan has used experience to win games and has made it to the same point as Arsenal so each philosophy has worked.

[gumbacicc]

I'm just telling for this year how Milan has experience and has made it to the same point as Arsenal so each philosophy has worked.

Correct, but the difference is that Milan have made it work for some time now while Arsenal who apparently have this wonderful youth program have only now reached the CL semifinal. One can claim this to be a successful program only if they sustain success at the highest level. Further, Arsenal, have seemed to opt for CL success while being completely uncompetitive in their own domestic league which is a more accurate indicator of the strenth of a squad through a marathon campaign. Hence, the wonderful youth at Arsenal has faltered on the home front and Arsenal cannot claim they are competing on all fronts as are an experienced side like Milan.

[Sir Martin Keown]

I agree with your criticism of Ancelotti's tactics but you employ absolutely ridiculous logic.

For one, the lack of youth players has nothing to do with the first part of your post. Anyone who knows anything about Italian football would know that the most successful sides that we have had had many experienced players on the side, and much less youth players. Take a look at the Italian sides that have won the CL trophies . . . you know, the trophy that you hav not won. Those sides generally comprised of players in their last 20s and early 30s.

Second, I would attribute Juve's failure to our own tactical decisions more than anything Arsenal did. Capello made some shockingly poor tactical decisions and didn't even try to attack you guys so we never even got going.

Finally, you demonstrate your bias in the last sentence so you should not be taken seriously as is.

You guys are in such denial it's embarassing, if my team brought on old defenders after going 1-0 down I would be critising my team, you however just go on about the past... blah blah

If an Italian team or the Italian national team play good football then I would like to watch them but I just don't see it. You are obviously so deluded you think that any game you lose cannot be down to the opposition being better, Juve were made to look old and tired by the fact that Arsenal had energy and were all over them, much like Lyon were in the last round v AC and Barce will be at the Nou Camp

[Sir Martin Keown]

I haven't started this thread to go on about how great Arsenal are, as you say they haven't achieved anything. This topic is about Italaian teams and thir over-reliance on old players. It would be refreshing to see a young team come out of Italy playing some free-flowing football....the reason you never do is part of the reason EPL fans and other fans dislike your game

[gumbacicc]

You guys are in such denial it's embarassing, if my team brought on old defenders after going 1-0 down I would be critising my team, you however just go on about the past... blah blah

Can you read? Did you not understand the part of my post where I explicitly say that I agree with your criticism of Ancelotti's tactics?

However, Ancelotti did not falter in having brought on "old" players. He faltered when he put on a defender to replace a creative MF in a game when he was losing. I completely disagree with the tactic (though it did work against Lyon), but it has nothing to do with age, and this is something you cannot grasp.

If an Italian team or the Italian national team play good football then I would like to watch them but I just don't see it. You are obviously so deluded you think that any game you lose cannot be down to the opposition being better, Juve were made to look old and tired by the fact that Arsenal had energy and were all over them, much like Lyon were in the last round v AC and Barce will be at the Nou Camp

Further, most of what you say here is also incorrect. I will understand if you criticize Juve for their play as I acknowledge that my club side plays crap football. Thank Capello for that. His crappy tactics do not work in CL and they cost us more than anything Arse's youth did. However, to say that Milan does not play "good" football is absolutely absurd. They have some of the greatest creative and attacking talent there is (i.e. Kaka, Pirlo, Seedorf on his day, Rui Costa, Shevy, etc.) If fact, had they converted their chances yesterday, they could have easily scored three times. To say that Milan does not play good football is just ignorant. Further, when is the last time that you watched the national team play because I could assure you that "good" football was played in both the 3-1 thumping of Holland and the 4-1 demolition of Germany.

[kotto_bass]

Correct, but the difference is that Milan have made it work for some time now while Arsenal who apparently have this wonderful youth program have only now reached the CL semifinal. One can claim this to be a successful program only if they sustain success at the highest level. Further, Arsenal, have seemed to opt for CL success while being completely uncompetitive in their own domestic league which is a more accurate indicator of the strenth of a squad through a marathon campaign. Hence, the wonderful youth at Arsenal has faltered on the home front and Arsenal cannot claim they are competing on all fronts as are an experienced side like Milan.

Ajax employed a youth system in '95. It worked flawlessly, but ever since it has not been working. Eventually, experience puts youth in it's place. If Arsenal doesn't win this year, I doubt they'll win for a while (they might not even make it next year :eek: ) And by the way, the old lady will be back.:p

[gumbacicc]

Ajax employed a youth system in '95. It worked flawlessly, but ever since it has not been working. Eventually, experience puts youth in it's place. If Arsenal doesn't win this year, I doubt they'll win for a while (they might not even make it next year :eek: ) And by the way, the old lady will be back.:p

Good point with the Ajax system. That is truly an example of a successful youth program, them and not Arsenal. That Ajax side was very successful in Europe and dominated the home front. Arsenal has done neither.

In fact, it was the experienced Juve side that put that Ajax side in place. They took the CL final from Ajax and then drubbed them in the subsequent season, including a 4-0 win at Amsterdam.