Tensions Run High Over Japan’s Dokdo Research Trip

[hypnotik]

Suspense is building after news that Japan plans to send a research vessel into Korean waters near Dokdo in the East Sea for what it claims is a hydrographical survey. The plan has Japan sending the research vessel into Korea’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ); Japanese territorial designs on Dokdo have stood in the way of the countries’ reaching agreement on their respective EEZ in the East Sea.
http://english.chosun.com/media/photo/news/200604/200604170022_01.jpg
Diplomatic sources in Seoul and Tokyo said since Japan told an international maritime agency it will start the survey on April 14, the vessel is likely to arrive in the sensitive area this week. If Japan goes ahead with the plan, the resulting conflict between the two nations could send the bilateral relationship into the worst crisis since the 1965 Korea-Japan Treaty led to the resumption of diplomatic ties.

A meeting of the Foreign Ministry and other related ministries on Monday produced a set of ad-hoc guidelines for any incursion. The plan is to prevent the vessel from, entering Korea’s EEZ, and, if it does enter, to take all legal measures including seizure. The UN convention on the law of the sea says that when a country violates another country’s EEZ without consent, the latter is entitled to stop, search and seize the vessel.
http://english.chosun.com/media/photo/news/200604/200604170022_02.jpg
A Japanese Foreign Ministry official told the Chosun Ilbo by phone the time to conduct the survey “and other matters” have not yet been determined. “I think it’s possible from a commonsense point of view that we may notify Seoul of the survey before we actually carry it out,” the official added. But an official with Japanese maritime authorities insisted if Seoul seizes a vessel of the Japanese government or searches the ship, “it would definitely violate international law.”

Tokyo claims the area to be surveyed is in its own EEZ, a claim that would only hold good if Dokdo were on the Japanese side of the line.

(englishnews@chosun.com )

“Every Japanese government vessel is considered a warship according to the UN convention on the law of the sea” says Kim Chan-gyu, a professor emeritus at Kyunghee University. “We should bear in mind that if we seize one, we can be sued in the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea.” He added a warning, “It’s possible that we are falling into a trap set by Japan.”


I hope ROK Marines destroys the Japanese bullcr@p research vessel
What other options does Korea have to prevent the ******** from stealing our island

[spejic]

What other options does Korea have to prevent the ******** from stealing our islandNot much. Japan has an very large and powerful navy - probably the second most powerful in the world.

[hypnotik]

Not much. Japan has an very large and powerful navy - probably the second most powerful in the world.

How about North Korea sending some missles to that vessel

That would scare em off...

[spejic]

How about North Korea sending some missles to that vessel

That would scare em off...Nah, they are very far away. And after the missile flyover, the spy boat, and the revelations of kidnapped Japanese their relations to North Korea have cooled greatly. Any attack would get a response.

This is a very tricky bit of real estate given its flyspeck size on a map. It is about 130 miles from both mainlands, and given the owner gets a 200 mile "Exclusive Economic Zone " around it, it can play a big part in things like fishing rights and possible off shore drilling.

Here is an excelent and fairly neutral web site about the history of the conflict.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html

[hypnotik]

Nah, they are very far away. And after the missile flyover, the spy boat, and the revelations of kidnapped Japanese their relations to North Korea have cooled greatly. Any attack would get a response.

This is a very tricky bit of real estate given its flyspeck size on a map. It is about 130 miles from both mainlands, and given the owner gets a 200 mile "Exclusive Economic Zone " around it, it can play a big part in things like fishing rights and possible off shore drilling.

Here is an excelent and fairly neutral web site about the history of the conflict.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html

Very far away? Are you sure? From what i heard, NK missles are capable of reaching Guam...I think NK is very very close to Japan IMO
But i doubt NK will do that

[spejic]

Very far away? Are you sure? From what i heard, NK missles are capable of reaching Guam...Those ballistic missiles are useless against ships - they can only hit cities and the like. North Korea has anti-ship missiles, but they are about 250 miles away. Even long range anti-ship missiles like the Chinese YJ-62 can't go anywhere close to that.

Besides, why would North Korea try to help South Korea in any way?

[Shaster]

If there is a war breaking between Japan and Korea. Count China in Korean side. Heck, many Chinese regreted that they didn't take Liuqio (Okinawa) back from Japan invasion.

[Niloc]

uh... dude, the Ryukyu islands were a tributory state of the Shimazu Clan (Han) since the early Edo Period... Then the Tokugawa Bakufu made it a part of Japan...

Hell if you are talking about waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when the islands were tributory to Ming, Kogyro, and the Japanese isles then why don't you stake your claim on Korea and Japan too (seeing that at some point in their histories they too were tributory to China as well)

I mean hell you did it to Tibet right? You are even building a bloody statue of Mao to remind them that you stole their country. China talking to Japan about re-writing history... That's really rich

But hey, you are the 500 pound gorrilla and there is no way anyone can beat you in a land war. So carry on China, carry on

[Shaster]

uh... dude, the Ryukyu islands were a tributory state of the Shimazu Clan (Han) since the early Edo Period... Then the Tokugawa Bakufu made it a part of Japan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Islands

In 1879, the Meiji government announced the annexation of the Ryukyus. The messengers of the Ryukyuan king had kneeled outside the Chinese Prime Minister's Yamen in Beijing for three days, begging for saving the kingdom. However, the Qing Empire was weakened itself from the invasions of the Western powers and Japan; therefore, Ryukyu's request for sending military protection was not granted. China, however, diplomatically objected and the ex-President of the United States Ulysses S. Grant was asked to arbitrate. He decided that Japan's claim to the islands was stronger and ruled in Japan's favor. The claims of the indigenous Ryukyuans to the land were ignored. After Japan occupied Ryukyu, there was a series of massacres by the Japanese army that killed a major proportion of the Ryukyuan population, in order to clear the Ryukyans' strong Chinese roots, anti-Japan emotions, and common favors for China. Most Ryukyuans who survived back then were forced to adopt the Japanese language, culture and identification.

But I guess Okinawa is a US terrority anyway. :p

Hell if you are talking about waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when the islands were tributory to Ming, Kogyro, and the Japanese isles then why don't you stake your claim on Korea and Japan too (seeing that at some point in their histories they too were tributory to China as well)

Korea was China's tribute state until Japan invaded and defeated Qing. If that wasn't happen, Korea may decide to go independance later on or stay as part of China. That is their own decision and whatever they decide, China will support them fully.



I mean hell you did it to Tibet right? You are even building a bloody statue of Mao to remind them that you stole their country. China talking to Japan about re-writing history... That's really rich

There are no arguments about Tibet on 1) Tibet was an independant country before conquired by Yuan Dynasty; 2) Tibet was part of China until 1911 revolution. Today Tibetan exile government claimed Tibet was de facto independant country from 1911 to 1950 and they have their points. But just like all independant movement, like USA from UK, you have to get acceptance from other party to get that statu. For example, during American Civil War, South States declared independance but never accepted by Union and lost war for it. You have to understand the Tibet and Mongolia are not exactly a Chinese province, but not with same status as Korea, Vietnam, etc. There are somewhere between. Heck, Mongolia did get China's acceptance for independance at 1945. (Today there is a strong movement in Mongolia to rejoin China, just let you know). The current Communists are indeed guity on many of re-writing history, and even though many people are pissed about Japan's work on that, I fully understand that isn't the mainstream view of Japanese society. So I would not criticize Japanese on this beside the stupid PM and Co.

But hey, you are the 500 pound gorrilla and there is no way anyone can beat you in a land war. So carry on China, carry on

No. China wasn't a bad guy who trying to attack other countries (Empire Japan was a bad example on how not to do things). But today's China has enough nuclear power to scare anyone away on attacking China.

[Niloc]

Oh! I see. China can take over Tibet and force them to submit, but when Japan does this to Ryukyu they are mean aggressors...

sure~

[Niloc]

um... and dude where did you get this massacres crap from??? wikipedia? could you not find a better source? Jesus some people will go the distance just to discredit Japan. There was no massacre in the Ryukyu's period (Now I am not one of the supposed history denying people that you will all accuse me of being. I know what Japan did in WWII and it was horrendus and stupid. However this claim in wikipedia is outright lying at its best).

[mikado]

wikipedia!! fuhaha. nice one:D ;)

[Shaster]

Oh! I see. China can take over Tibet and force them to submit, but when Japan does this to Ryukyu they are mean aggressors...

sure~

Niloc, Tibet was never took over by China (Han) but by Yuan when Mogols were in power. Since then, there was a kind of Eastern political setup that wasn't fit in with any concepts mainly adopted from Western today. Since then the system would accomplish two things--1) make sure emperior's soverginty and authority in Tibet; 2) make sure Tibetan government (under Dalai Lama) having full autonomy.

This system was broken because British invaded Tibet at 1906. In 1950, Red China sent troops in to secure the border and try to evict whatever British influence leftover (many inherited by India). Also more than half of Tibetan people are not live in Tibet (Tibetan calls U-Tsung) which was under Dalai's government, but live in Qinghai (Amdo) and Xikang (Kham). Most of Tibetans were actually welcomed Communists troops. The real problem caused by Mao's aggressive land reform which led uprisings from Khampas who lived outside Tibet. Those Khampas went into Tibet that caused some distability to Tibet and they were also welcomed by Nationalist Chinese in Calcutta in India to train at Taiwan. So they were not exactly fight against Chinese, rather Communists and added greatly by Nationalists.

But really damage was during Culture Revolution when whole China was in hell. All the fights from Tibet after 1950 is not for indepedance out of China, rather an autonomy for Tibetans to govern themself.

In Ryukyu case, after Japan made it a tribute state, Ryuku still paid tribute to China. They were volentarily did that to China, but only did that to Japan under the force. You do understand there were no single Chinese troop ever being send to Ryukyu? After Meiji troops took over, Japan proposed a treaty to Qing to divide Ryukyu Kingdoms to north and south, so Japan took the North, and gave Qing the South. That proposal was never being accepted out of principle.

Maybe you need to ask a simple question: there were wars fought between China and Korea in the history--for example, 1950s one, but why Koreans don't hate Chinese, but hates Japan? :p

[hypnotik]

Maybe you need to ask a simple question: there were wars fought between China and Korea in the history--for example, 1950s one, but why Koreans don't hate Chinese, but hates Japan? :p
There were many wars between Chinese and Korea, Mongolia and Korea back then but Japan tried to obliterate everything korean including langauge, culture, customs, history etc. They were trying to delete us and turn us into Japan with force. (maybe thats why they didnt go far in terms of ruling and conquering) Thats why we hated/hate/dislike them AND on top of that no true apologizes from them still. Even though Korea was defeated by the Mongolians/Chinese many times, they didnt try to or even wipe out our own, distinct culture. Lets say Japan was the worst


this is off-topic but i think this was one of the reason why genghis kahn conquered soo much land with success. after they conquered different countries /villages, they didnt try to convert or take away their own culture. Instead they mixed mongolians in the village to inter-marriage. That why the people who got defeated didnt hate the mongolians to the max. Which prevented major uprisings.

Getting rid of one culture is the worst thing people can do which will result in major uprisings.

[Shaster]

There were many wars between Chinese and Korea, Mongolia and Korea back then but Japan tried to obliterate everything korean including langauge, culture, customs, history etc. They were trying to delete us and turn us into Japan with force. (maybe thats why they didnt go far in terms of ruling and conquering) Thats why we hated/hate/dislike them AND on top of that no true apologizes from them still. Even though Korea was defeated by the Mongolians/Chinese many times, they didnt try to or even wipe out our own, distinct culture. Lets say Japan was the worst


this is off-topic but i think this was one of the reason why genghis kahn conquered soo much land with success. after they conquered different countries /villages, they didnt try to convert or take away their own culture. Instead they mixed mongolians in the village to inter-marriage. That why the people who got defeated didnt hate the mongolians to the max. Which prevented major uprisings.

Getting rid of one culture is the worst thing people can do which will result in major uprisings.

I am not an expert on what Japan did during Korean occupation but must be very bad to leave such bad taste on Korean people. In China, the main atrocities were Nanking, Comfort Women, Human gem experiment, and those forced labors in Japan. But I would not paint all Japanese as bad. Even during the war, some of Japanese civilians did some good works. One example was that many young kids who come to Hainan Island and did some very good works in remote villiages. That is why today people should hate those imperalists and war criminals (those Kozumi still worship) and not hate people of Japan.

Mongols rule in China was rather short around 100 years. Many other Mongols complain them are too Chinese, but Chinese complain them are not Chinese enough. For anyone who came to rule China, they have to become Chinese to be accepted. :p

[hypnotik]

I am not an expert on what Japan did during Korean occupation but must be very bad to leave such bad taste on Korean people. In China, the main atrocities were Nanking, Comfort Women, Human gem experiment, and those forced labors in Japan. But I would not paint all Japanese as bad. Even during the war, some of Japanese civilians did some good works. One example was that many young kids who come to Hainan Island and did some very good works in remote villiages. That is why today people should hate those imperalists and war criminals (those Kozumi still worship) and not hate people of Japan.

Mongols rule in China was rather short around 100 years. Many other Mongols complain them are too Chinese, but Chinese complain them are not Chinese enough. For anyone who came to rule China, they have to become Chinese to be accepted. :p

Whats human gem experiment? Did you mean germ exp.?
I heard that long ago during Korguyo Dynasty, gwangehto king ruled little bit of land above north korea (i think manchuria present day) and now China is claiming Korguyo Dynasty to be part of the Chinese history and saying "Oh Korguyo was a part of chinese tribes" because their afraid and worried that Korea might take back the land above north korea. Heard also that China didnt claim Koryo Dynasty before during around 1950s because koreans were on the verge of dying from lack of food, post war crisis, and life came first before history of course. But during the 21st century, Koreans are living well, economy is high so now koreans can step up to the plate and talk about the past?
Can anyone confirm this?

[Shaster]

Whats human gem experiment? Did you mean germ exp.?
I heard that long ago during Korguyo Dynasty, gwangehto king ruled little bit of land above north korea (i think manchuria present day) and now China is claiming Korguyo Dynasty to be part of the Chinese history and saying "Oh Korguyo was a part of chinese tribes" because their afraid and worried that Korea might take back the land above north korea. Heard also that China didnt claim Koryo Dynasty before during around 1950s because koreans were on the verge of dying from lack of food, post war crisis, and life came first before history of course. But during the 21st century, Koreans are living well, economy is high so now koreans can step up to the plate and talk about the past?
Can anyone confirm this?

OK. This is not a very complicated issue. First Han Dynasty had control of part of Manchuria and part of North Korea for many years before Korguryo took over. Traditional Chinese historians were considering Korguryo a Korean state (as matter of fact, all states that used to not be Han Chinese) and not part of Chinese history, but later on, Chinese had to face two very important facts-- 1) Chinese is not exactly a single ethnic group that based on generic origin but rather on culture identity; 2) Even China today includes 56 different ethnic groups, so they cannot ignore history for those ethinics.

So for first issue, because only China is able to keep good history records, many of the ethnics--such as Xiongnu (Huns), Turks, etc., mainly merged into Han Chinese, so their histories have to be kept as part of Chinese history. For second issue, here is where complication came from.

With this new thinking, today's Chinese historians consider the earlier part of Korguryo (before it moved its capital city to Pyingyong) as part of Chinese history and later part of Korguryo as part of Korean history. This is not a clear cut because even the map of Korguryo was changing as the time went, there were no significant difference because both part of today's North Korea and Manchuria were belongs to Korguryo. But there has to be a way to record the history for today's ethnic Koreans Chinese, right?

The main issue raised is actually not about Korguryo, but Balhae who inherited most of old territory. The issue was raised when Qing China and Korea defined their borders around 1712. Some Korean scholars declared that Korea should include Balhae in its history so they can negotiate more lands in Manchuria. But that was 300 years ago, and would not become an issue today.

The problem is this: Korguryo and Balhae consisted Koreans and Mohes. But later Balhae was took over by Khitan (Liao) who merged into Han Chinese and llater on by Mohe (Jurchen). Even though the ruling class was Koreans in Korguryo, but its people were mixing of many ethinics with Mohe as the major one. Also today's Korean historians believe Balhae's founder Dae Joyeong was of Korguryo ethic, but according Chinese history book in Tang dynasty, he was from the Sumo Mohe of the former realm of Korguryo.

Since Manchu was coming from Mohe, so when they negotiated border with Korea (some of Balhae's royal family ran down there), do you feel Korea had the right to claim all territory in Manchuria or Manchu had the right to claim all therritory in North Korea? :>) Especially, since Nurhaci was originated in today's North Korea. Qing may have a better right to declare? Or as some Korean scholars though Manchu is part of ethnic Korean, so both China and Korea can claim they have rights? :>)

[hypnotik]

OK. This is not a very complicated issue. First Han Dynasty had control of part of Manchuria and part of North Korea for many years before Korguryo took over. Traditional Chinese historians were considering Korguryo a Korean state (as matter of fact, all states that used to not be Han Chinese) and not part of Chinese history, but later on, Chinese had to face two very important facts-- 1) Chinese is not exactly a single ethnic group that based on generic origin but rather on culture identity; 2) Even China today includes 56 different ethnic groups, so they cannot ignore history for those ethinics.

So for first issue, because only China is able to keep good history records, many of the ethnics--such as Xiongnu (Huns), Turks, etc., mainly merged into Han Chinese, so their histories have to be kept as part of Chinese history. For second issue, here is where complication came from.

With this new thinking, today's Chinese historians consider the earlier part of Korguryo (before it moved its capital city to Pyingyong) as part of Chinese history and later part of Korguryo as part of Korean history. This is not a clear cut because even the map of Korguryo was changing as the time went, there were no significant difference because both part of today's North Korea and Manchuria were belongs to Korguryo. But there has to be a way to record the history for today's ethnic Koreans Chinese, right?

The main issue raised is actually not about Korguryo, but Balhae who inherited most of old territory. The issue was raised when Qing China and Korea defined their borders around 1712. Some Korean scholars declared that Korea should include Balhae in its history so they can negotiate more lands in Manchuria. But that was 300 years ago, and would not become an issue today.

The problem is this: Korguryo and Balhae consisted Koreans and Mohes. But later Balhae was took over by Khitan (Liao) who merged into Han Chinese and llater on by Mohe (Jurchen). Even though the ruling class was Koreans in Korguryo, but its people were mixing of many ethinics with Mohe as the major one. Also today's Korean historians believe Balhae's founder Dae Joyeong was of Korguryo ethic, but according Chinese history book in Tang dynasty, he was from the Sumo Mohe of the former realm of Korguryo.

Since Manchu was coming from Mohe, so when they negotiated border with Korea (some of Balhae's royal family ran down there), do you feel Korea had the right to claim all territory in Manchuria or Manchu had the right to claim all therritory in North Korea? :>) Especially, since Nurhaci was originated in today's North Korea. Qing may have a better right to declare? Or as some Korean scholars though Manchu is part of ethnic Korean, so both China and Korea can claim they have rights? :>)

Korguryo isnt even 1% Chinese i believe. no need for speculation cause Chinese aint Korguryo or the other way around. Maybe they can make history by cheating but it aint in Korean records. I believe theres a small part of Chinese history that they feared Koreans around that time. They were afraid of some king i dont remember and the Chinese are trying to cover up that part or get rid of it present day. I think the land above North Korea can be koreans land maybe if they reunifiy later on.

[Shaster]

Korguryo isnt even 1% Chinese i believe. no need for speculation cause Chinese aint Korguryo or the other way around. Maybe they can make history by cheating but it aint in Korean records. I believe theres a small part of Chinese history that they feared Koreans around that time. They were afraid of some king i dont remember and the Chinese are trying to cover up that part or get rid of it present day. I think the land above North Korea can be koreans land maybe if they reunifiy later on.

You are right Korguryo is a Korean state with ruling Korean tribes over multiple other ethnic groups. But as I said that during history, Koreans, as Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchu all have their shares of time as rulers for the land there. Han Chinese only came in very late when Qing Emperior feared that Russia stealed too much lands out of them (outer Manchu), so he migrated huge Han people into Manchuria. There is no cheating on history back in Tang Dynasty.

Also most of ethnic Koreans live there today are very much think they are Chinese. For example, the best rock-in-roll singer Cui Jian who is ethnic Korean, and he is a Chinese culture symbol and feel as much as Chinese than anybody.

[hypnotik]

You are right Korguryo is a Korean state with ruling Korean tribes over multiple other ethnic groups. But as I said that during history, Koreans, as Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchu all have their shares of time as rulers for the land there. Han Chinese only came in very late when Qing Emperior feared that Russia stealed too much lands out of them (outer Manchu), so he migrated huge Han people into Manchuria. There is no cheating on history back in Tang Dynasty.

Also most of ethnic Koreans live there today are very much think they are Chinese. For example, the best rock-in-roll singer Cui Jian who is ethnic Korean, and he is a Chinese culture symbol and feel as much as Chinese than anybody.

I heard the opposite lol. i heard koreans living above north korea admit they are korean not chinese. Theres korean kaorke bars, korean restaurant, pool hall etc. around there i heard. Maybe that chinese rock and roll singer is mixed with chinese or something.

Koreans know, chinese know that they are claiming korguryo cause of that one reason is what im trying to say. You dont have to tell me this tribe rule that tribe with mix tribe blah blah >.< They can claim other stuff about tribes and all but it all comes down to that one true reason.right?.I china preventing korea to get that land back in the future.
If Korguryo was Chinese, Why would they attack their own country/motherland the chinese. Chinese attacking Chinese dont make sense.
Therefore Korguryo is Korean not Chinese or a tribe of Chinese whatsoever.