German U17/U19/U20/U21 Discussion Thread [R]

[Leinad]

It's surprising that Marin plays for the U21 as in the past the DFB was all about year of birth and never promoted players to the next level.

Sure it would be great to see Marin, Özil, Kroos and Fischer all playing together but I doubt that this is the DFB's philosophy.

ya but i think there is a change in the philosophy of the DFB. We see it already in things like that Sammer wants to see the U-Teams being successfull at tournaments.
The philosophy must be to give young players the maximum level of development. So its good if players skip an age class if they can play on a higher level and i think the DFB is starting to realise that.
This applies anyways just to the best talents, maybe 1-2 in each team which could/should play in a higher one.
So Marin to the u21 is a good choice as would be Kroos to the u19 after the tournament (the u21 should be only a option for Kroos if he has a breakthrough at Bayern sooner than most expect).

[FCK4ever]

I always think that U21 is often a dead end. How often do U21 players get promoted to the full national team. Both Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney got promoted straight to the national team. I doubt that would have happened in Germany. Their seems to be a reluctance ot promote young players.

[Little fairy]

I always think that U21 is often a dead end. How often do U21 players get promoted to the full national team. Both Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney got promoted straight to the national team. I doubt that would have happened in Germany. Their seems to be a reluctance to promote young players.

WTF? Uumm sorry but that is a dumb post. Do you have any idea HOW MANY young players were (directly) promoted from U21 into the current team??? :rolleyes:

Just let us take a look at them:

Schweinsteiger...in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Podolski ....in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Lahm ...in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Mertesacker...in the team since 2004, directly promoted to the full team.
Gomez...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Hilbert...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Helmes...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Kiessling...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Odonkor...played WC 2006 instead of U21 EC, got directly promoted
Castro...still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Tasci.... still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Khedira...still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Trochowski...missed an important U21 match in 2006 because of guess what? Yeah he was already promoted to the full team

So "only" 13 players made it since 2004. But you´re right. The german U21 is indeed a dead end. No chance to get (directly) promoted at all. :rolleyes:

[Cris 09]

Nice stats!!

WTF? Uumm sorry but that is a dumb post. Do you have any idea HOW MANY young players were (directly) promoted from U21 into the current team??? :rolleyes:

Just let us take a look at them:

Schweinsteiger...in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Podolski ....in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Lahm ...in the team since 2004, directly promoted from U21
Mertesacker...in the team since 2004, directly promoted to the full team.
Gomez...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Hilbert...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Helmes...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Kiessling...after playing U21 he got promoted to the full team
Odonkor...played WC 2006 instead of U21 EC, got directly promoted
Castro...still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Tasci.... still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Khedira...still eligible for U21 but is already promoted to the full team
Trochowski...missed an important U21 match in 2006 because of guess what? Yeah he was already promoted to the full team

So "only" 13 players made it since 2004. But you´re right. The german U21 is indeed a dead end. No chance to get (directly) promoted at all. :rolleyes:

[squidward123]

http://www.fifa.com/u17worldcup/news/newsid=562165.html

but is no ballack replacement. ballack is not a true #10. He is actually in my eyes a deisler replacement as deisler could have been a true #10.

[Alex_K]

http://www.fifa.com/u17worldcup/news/newsid=562165.html

but is no ballack replacement. ballack is not a true #10. He is actually in my eyes a deisler replacement as deisler could have been a true #10.

Nothing against Deisler, but... wouldn't he have had to, well, actually play to be replaced? :p

[squidward123]

Nothing against Deisler, but... wouldn't he have had to, well, actually play to be replaced? :p

well my idea was good in theory :)

[Hendrik]

http://www.fifa.com/u17worldcup/news/newsid=562165.html

but is no ballack replacement. ballack is not a true #10. He is actually in my eyes a deisler replacement as deisler could have been a true #10.
Maybe "Ballack replacement" as being the creative/dominant player in midfield? But all this is way too far away, you never know how these kids will do against older players and if they even make it in professional football.

England 1-4 Germany
Rudy, Sukuta-Pasu, Dowidat and Kroos scored

Next game's vs Nigeria on Thursday.

[Leinad]

Germany - England 4:1

goals by Rudy, Sukuta-Pasu, Dowidat and Kroos.

what a great game by our team, we had even the chances for a higher score.

Bigalke, Sukuta-Pasu, Rudy, Dowidat, Kroos and so on all with a very strong game

[Little fairy]

What a great match of our boys...oh yeah future looks bright. We were tactical but most technical far superior to Engelaaaand :cool:

Anyway...anyone noticed that England may start to hate the color red?
We were wearing our wembley proven red jerseys again....slowly time for me to buy one. Oh I can picture the perfect commercial phrase here:

Play in red and knock em dead :D

Its so great to see how superior our boys were..or to say it with the commentators words: "It's going from bad to worse for England"

Nothing more to add, cheers :cool:

[squidward123]

Maybe "Ballack replacement" as being the creative/dominant player in midfield?

But ballack isn't that. He is not a true #10 to be the dominant, creative player above everyone else.

He is not even the dominant midfielder in any other sense either. Frings and schneider are just as important and schneider is in fact the most creative out of the three with the other two on an even level.



But all this way too far away, you never know how these kids will do against older players and if thex even make it in professional football.

C'mon, this kid has been outstanding in this world cup and was again today. He is special. A level above anyone who has come out of germany youth since deisler.

Hoeness etc aren't stupid to rate him this highly as they don't praise anyone else. In fact not even deisler got this kind of praise and played this well at this age.

I predict the next netzer right now. Confidently. As long as he doesn't get injured but he sure doesn't look frail. He'll be the #10 in euro2012 or maybe even 2010. I can see a midfield of him, ballack, frings and schweinsteiger/borowski/khedira/...

[Hendrik]

He is not even the dominant midfielder in any other sense either. Frings and schneider are just as important and schneider is in fact the most creative out of the three with the other two on an even level.
The way I see Ballack is the hardest player to replace. Whenever he's out the team's a lot weaker, the attacking game doesn't work as well as it usually does. Examples are the return legs against Slovakia, San Marino or even the recent England friendly. Again, this is just my impression.



Hoeness etc aren't stupid to rate him this highly as they don't praise anyone else. In fact not even deisler got this kind of praise and played this well at this age.
Rummenigge: "If Piotr Trochowski doesn't make it here we're doing something wrong. Then no one will."
Trochowski is a prime example. This kid was rated the best player of his age group, ahead of Schweinsteiger, Lahm etc.
He's been playing pro football for more than two years now and has had what, two good games? I doubt he will ever become more than a decent Bundesliga player at best.

I'm just saying we shouldn't expect too much from Kroos for now. Let him develop in Bayern's third division team for a season or two with some pro appearences.

He'll be the #10 in euro2012 or maybe even 2010. I can see a midfield of him, ballack, frings and schweinsteiger/borowski/khedira/...
Well, I predict we'll never see Ballack, Frings and Kroos in the same team. Then there's also Marin and let's not forget the late bloomers.

[F96]

The way I see Ballack is the hardest player to replace. Whenever he's out the team's a lot weaker, the attacking game doesn't work as well as it usually does. Examples are the return legs against Slovakia, San Marino or even the recent England friendly. Again, this is just my impression.


Rummenigge: "If Piotr Trochowski doesn't make it here we're doing something wrong. Then no one will."
Trochowski is a prime example. This kid was rated the best player of his age group, ahead of Schweinsteiger, Lahm etc.
He's been playing pro football for more than two years now and has had what, two good games? I doubt he will ever become more than a decent Bundesliga player at best.

I'm just saying we shouldn't expect too much from Kroos for now. Let him develop in Bayern's third division team for a season or two with some pro appearences.


Well, I predict we'll never see Ballack, Frings and Kroos in the same team. Then there's also Marin and let's not forget the late bloomers.

Totally agree with this post.

My god, what hopes did I have in Trochowski... *sigh*

[squidward123]

The way I see Ballack is the hardest player to replace. Whenever he's out the team's a lot weaker, the attacking game doesn't work as well as it usually does. Examples are the return legs against Slovakia, San Marino or even the recent England friendly. Again, this is just my impression.

Hardest to replace and the one in whose absence the attacking game suffers the most is without a doubt bernd schneider. Remember cyprus?

Ballack is quite easily replaced well by borowski. We play more attractively with borowski as ballack sometimes has that annoying habit of shooting for goal from far while borowski just makes the simple pass instead. Rarely is this a problem for ballack, but still we are slightly more attractive with borowski IMO.

IMO the last 2 euro quals were a case of the whole team just being not on TOP form. Even then quite a lot better than the cyprus performance.

England game - lol cmon, everyone was out. Not just ballack. Even then it was good considering how many were missing. Possession and passing was much better than england's. Schneider played.


Rummenigge: "If Piotr Trochowski doesn't make it here we're doing something wrong. Then no one will."
Trochowski is a prime example. This kid was rated the best player of his age group, ahead of Schweinsteiger, Lahm etc.
He's been playing pro football for more than two years now and has had what, two good games? I doubt he will ever become more than a decent Bundesliga player at best.

I admit I didn't follow this guy closely but did he get the same praise as kroos and deisler? Those two were/are earmarked for "greatness" level. Reserving the #10 for him already.


I'm just saying we shouldn't expect too much from Kroos for now. Let him develop in Bayern's third division team for a season or two with some pro appearences.

Yeah me too. Which still makes him 19 when he can play for germany. I'm not saying he can step in and do really well right now for the NT. But in 2 years...


Well, I predict we'll never see Ballack, Frings and Kroos in the same team. Then there's also Marin and let's not forget the late bloomers.

If ballack and frings are there in 2010 as starters, which they should be, then kroos could also be there in 2010. And I reckon he will have a place in the midfield in 2010.

I don't know, I just see something very very special in him that marin and none of the others have. I see something even more than deisler I reckon.

[F96]

I admit I didn't follow this guy closely but did he get the same praise as kroos and deisler? Those two were/are earmarked for "greatness" level. Reserving the #10 for him already.

Oh he did.

I kinda agree about Ballack. Sometimes Germany played better without him.
Imo the best game of the 2002 WC was the final against Brazil where he was suspended.

[Leinad]

Trochowski did get praise but not on this level and even at the age of 20/21 he was nowhere near the team while its clear that Kroos will soon get his chances by Hitzfeld.
Also Trochowski was a totaly different kind of player, he wasnt really a team leader, he can be compared to Marin but not to Kroos.
Kroos on the other side has something that has nothing to do with the question where u play.
He has this special vision and passing that u simply cant teach or learn and this is something which is very important on any level.
Exactly this vision is what Trochowski still lacks, his decision making hasnt improved since his younger days but Kroos vision/decision makin is already so great that i see no problem for him to play on a senior level.
He plays a very mature game and isnt selfish and thats what you need to succed at a higher level.

[squidward123]

so fraulein and leinad, did he or didn't he get the same praise as kroos and deisler?

anyway, I happen to agree with what leinad said.

Kroos' game is very very mature - his decision making is top class and also simply the range of passes that this brings about. As well as that, he is poetry in motion with the ball at his feet. But he knows when to dribble.

He already has a body unlike bigalke :D. And he seems to be consistent as well (which is really what the result of having refined decision making is). I have the feeling that all of those things are developed enough to be able to be taken to any level he plays at. In other words he has the confidence in what he does.

I reckon he's even better than deisler and that is saying a lot.

And he also has this presence about him that would almost make older players defer to him.

[F96]

Everyone including me was hyping up Piotr pretty good.
He was that little wizzard with an awesome technique and a great shot.
We all assumed he would add vision and understanding of the game to his game later, sadly he never did.

After watching 4 games of Marko Marin it's quite clear to me that Marin already can play those "blind" passes and can anticipate situtations a lot better at 18 than Trochowski ever will.
His only "flaw" is his physique but so far he didn't get killed in the 2. Bundesliga which is a good sign.

Maybe part of the Trochowski hype was also that there was no other highly talented German player in his age-group and that made him really stand out and made people think he was better than he really was.
I mean, who else was born in 1984?
Mertesacker was but before he made 96's Bundesliga squad out of nowhere noone knew about him, Helmes is a late-bloomer.

Were Schweinsteiger, Kießling and Hilbert considered huge talents at 17?

[squidward123]

Were Schweinsteiger, Kießling and Hilbert considered huge talents at 17?

Ummmmm, schweinsteiger at the euros had the wow factor and stood out like a beacon with his dribbles and creativity from the other german players. But I don't know about age 17.

Point is, kroos right now is better than schweinsteiger at 23 :D

http://www.fifa.com/u17worldcup/matches/round=249424/match=58942/photolist.html#587070
http://www.fifa.com/u17worldcup/matches/round=249424/match=58942/photolist.html#587070

Captain material. Look at the presence. But his feet still look "delicate" enough to weave stuff on the pitch.

[F96]

Point is, kroos right now is better than schweinsteiger at 23 :D

That's debatable.
Don't forget, he's playing against fellow 17 or 16 year-olds.