My theory on why Germany is struggling!

[poorvi]

This is a funny theory. I just don't believe the look of the players has anything to do with their success in soccer. Shevchenko, Henry, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Riquelme, Buffon, Maldini, Etoo ... do any of these guys look like a hit man?

The people you've mentioned here are extremely talented, probably the among the best 3 in their position in the world. But for a people, who are not extra talented, but have just the right amounts of talent. It is in these cases that the player tries to get the psychological edge over the opponents.

[Bayerntone]

The German players you mentioned are very talented too with the exception of:

Janker - an average forward

Kahn and Schumacher in particular (and Lahmann too) - talented but constantly reinforced by their violent behaviour.

Those German players all won their acclaims by their sheer skills and individual abilities to excel above their equals imo.

[AGF Aarhus]

Replace 'tough' with 'confidant' and I am inclined to agree. Also specify this more for defensive players and I will whole-heartedly agree. I would just point out that appearing tough is not enough; they player actually needs to be able to back it up. Simply telling players to 'act tough' is a losing proposition.

Before his slump in recent years, Kahn made forwards screw up just by looking at them.

I think you can also tie this in with the D-Mid discussion going on. The problem is, we're lacking the classic German libero.

With Hamann and Ramalow no longer able to bring it at this level, there is nobody to fill this position. I think Klinsmann sees this and has tried to reorient the team accordingly around speed and fitness.

To rework a classic Rumsfeldism: You go to the World Cup with the players you have, but the players you might wish you had.

It is not good enough to say 'we need this kind of player'. We don't have this kind of player, so the real question is 'what do we do in its absence. How adaptable is German football.' Duncan Idaho did a good job of addressing this question.

[Psychosis hsv]

i will say BL lacks foreign coaches who can introduce different types of play
and so many Germany players are playing at home. germany players need to play abroad. brazillians ad argentines are all over the world
germany starting 11 all play in bundesliga with exception of Huth.
when the likes of the pig want to join Rangers every German opposes. i think this should happen

lahm -go to madrid-i heard they were interested
hinkel-epl
kehl-italy
podolski-spain
klose-england

and germany will improve

if there is an elder here please tell me 1990 wcup squad players and the teams they played for? thank you

[AGF Aarhus]

if there is an elder here please tell me 1990 wcup squad players and the teams they played for? thank you
Post #29:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338263

[ohk4]

Post #29:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338263

in case you haven't noticed if you click on #29 you get just the post alone

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8095760&postcount=29

it took me a while to figure that one out and I wanted to pass along my rudimentary interweb savvy.

[Psychosis hsv]

Post #29:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338263
be direct

[AGF Aarhus]

in case you haven't noticed if you click on #29 you get just the post alone

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8095760&postcount=29

it took me a while to figure that one out and I wanted to pass along my rudimentary interweb savvy.
Cool, thanks.


be direct

What?

[Psychosis hsv]

Cool, thanks.


What?
thank you i ahve seen it.

and this is it
Brehme -> Inter
Kohler -> Juve
Reuter -> Juve
Illgner -> Real Madrid
Klinsmann -> Inter
Matthäus -> Inter
Hässler -> Lazio
Berthold -> AS Rom
Littbarski -> Racing Paris
Riedle -> Lazio/Liverpool/Fulham
Möller -> Juve
Köpke -> Marseille
these days we have players playing for Hertha in the national team!
they should start going out befor 2010 improve germany's chances

[snoooop]

don't forget Rudi Völler ^^ he played also for Marseille and was in the WC Team from 1990.

mhm, i dont see there any Problem to have an Nationalplayer from Hertha BSC Berlin?? They finished on 4th Position last Season..so.. its not a shame to have an Player from that Team.
Gilberto from Hertha played the Confed-Cup for Brasil, why cant Germany have their Rightback from Hertha??

and we have Players from Cologne, Hannover and from Wolfsburg, come on.. Hertha is from all these Clubs the best at the Moment!

Its 10x better to have an regular starter from Hertha as an Bechwarmer from Chelsea ;)

[Wotan]

Gosh---You hit the nail on the head! I gotta be careful about saying things--but--you "got it"-"poorvi" ---The Germans must assert this "menacing" German characteristic! Is that OK? Thanks--I agree 100%:) GREAT POST!! There is another factor, the lack of which is making the current German side struggle. That is the fear factor.

Previous German sides have always had a couple of players, who in addition to their talent, had an aura of invincibility, a streak of ruthlessness and a no nonesense look. I can go on naming people from the past squads- Rummenigge, Kohler, Brehme,Schuhmacher, Effenberg, Kahn,Ramelow,Sammer, Janker and so on. All these people had a menacing ' dont mess with me' attitude and this would surely have a psychological effect on their opponents. I remember clearly how Zahovic used to cower away from tackles in the 2001 final of the champions league, when he came face to face with Effenberg. It wasn't just the size, but the calmness of the players, in contrast to their agressive demeanor was a combination to intimidate even the strongest of opponents. Even a smaller person like Lothar Mathaus, with his look and coarse voice could get respect from opponents.
If I was a defender. I'd make sure I was not entrusted the task of tackling Effenberg or Janker.

This is lacking now. Apart from Kahn (now a sub) and Huth (but the 'look' is all he has, no talent), and Ballack to an extent, no one has that confident and threatening appearance anymore.Take Kuranyi for instance, he looks so weak, I don't think any defender will hesitate before trying to play rough with him. Podolski looks like a school boy, and is not likely to scare any one off. But atleast he has talent.

Do you guys think, that for Germany, a team which traditonaly more physical than the other, appearing tough is necessary?

[Zwanzigoetzel]

thank you i ahve seen it.

and this is it
Brehme -> Inter
Kohler -> Juve
Reuter -> Juve
Illgner -> Real Madrid
Klinsmann -> Inter
Matthäus -> Inter
Hässler -> Lazio
Berthold -> AS Rom
Littbarski -> Racing Paris
Riedle -> Lazio/Liverpool/Fulham
Möller -> Juve
Köpke -> Marseille
these days we have players playing for Hertha in the national team!
they should start going out befor 2010 improve germany's chances

Well, let's look at the team of Euro 1996:

* Markus Babbel (Bayern München)
* Mario Basler (Werder Bremen)
* Oliver Bierhoff (Udinese Calcio)
* Fredi Bobic (VfB Stuttgart)
* Marco Bode (Werder Bremen)
* Dieter Eilts (Werder Bremen)
* Steffen Freund (Borussia Dortmund)
* Thomas Häßler (Karlsruher SC)
* Thomas Helmer (Bayern München)
* Oliver Kahn (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Klinsmann (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Kohler (Borussia Dortmund)
* Andreas Köpke (Eintracht Frankfurt)
* Stefan Kuntz (Besiktas Istanbul)
* Andreas Möller (Borussia Dortmund)
* Oliver Reck (Werder Bremen)
* Stefan Reuter (Borussia Dortmund)
* Matthias Sammer (Borussia Dortmund)
* René Schneider (Hansa Rostock)
* Mehmet Scholl (Bayern München)
* Thomas Strunz (Bayern München)
* Jens Todt (Werder Bremen)
* Christian Ziege (Bayern München)

:rolleyes:

Sorry, but I don't buy it that you have to play abroad to become a world class soccer player. Germany has enough good coaches with vast amount of experience and knowledge who just have to believe in their own youth again.

Playing in foreign leagues is by far not the silver bullet like many of you believe. Spending some time abroad most certainly will help you become a better soccer player, but that is also true for a young Brazilian talent who spends some time playing in the Bundesliga.

[poorvi]

Well, let's look at the team of Euro 1996:

* Markus Babbel (Bayern München)
* Mario Basler (Werder Bremen)
* Oliver Bierhoff (Udinese Calcio)
* Fredi Bobic (VfB Stuttgart)
* Marco Bode (Werder Bremen)
* Dieter Eilts (Werder Bremen)
* Steffen Freund (Borussia Dortmund)
* Thomas Häßler (Karlsruher SC)
* Thomas Helmer (Bayern München)
* Oliver Kahn (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Klinsmann (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Kohler (Borussia Dortmund)
* Andreas Köpke (Eintracht Frankfurt)
* Stefan Kuntz (Besiktas Istanbul)
* Andreas Möller (Borussia Dortmund)
* Oliver Reck (Werder Bremen)
* Stefan Reuter (Borussia Dortmund)
* Matthias Sammer (Borussia Dortmund)
* René Schneider (Hansa Rostock)
* Mehmet Scholl (Bayern München)
* Thomas Strunz (Bayern München)
* Jens Todt (Werder Bremen)
* Christian Ziege (Bayern München)

:rolleyes:

Sorry, but I don't buy it that you have to play abroad to become a world class soccer player. Germany has enough good coaches with vast amount of experience and knowledge who just have to believe in their own youth again.

Playing in foreign leagues is by far not the silver bullet like many of you believe. Spending some time abroad most certainly will help you become a better soccer player, but that is also true for a young Brazilian talent who spends some time playing in the Bundesliga.

Good analysis.
I tend to agree with you in general. Apart from the 90 team, which other winning or a finalist German team had more players playing outside than in the Bundesliga? I don't think any team did. That too most players who go outside, go in the twilight years of their playing careers, like Babbel, Zickler, Hamann, Basler et al.Most here claim that a player faces tougher competition per week in Spain, England or Italy as the primary reason for the player playing outside. That brings us back to Bundesliga vs other leagues debate. :p

[poorvi]

Gosh---You hit the nail on the head! I gotta be careful about saying things--but--you "got it"-"poorvi" ---The Germans must assert this "menacing" German characteristic! Is that OK? Thanks--I agree 100%:) GREAT POST!!

Thanks for agreeing.
But why have you put my name in quotations? :confused:

Also this "menacing" characteristic that I've mentioned, is specific to players.I am not so sure you can generalize it for an entire nation.

[snoooop]

Well, let's look at the team of Euro 1996:

* Markus Babbel (Bayern München)
* Mario Basler (Werder Bremen)
* Oliver Bierhoff (Udinese Calcio)
* Fredi Bobic (VfB Stuttgart)
* Marco Bode (Werder Bremen)
* Dieter Eilts (Werder Bremen)
* Steffen Freund (Borussia Dortmund)
* Thomas Häßler (Karlsruher SC)
* Thomas Helmer (Bayern München)
* Oliver Kahn (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Klinsmann (Bayern München)
* Jürgen Kohler (Borussia Dortmund)
* Andreas Köpke (Eintracht Frankfurt)
* Stefan Kuntz (Besiktas Istanbul)
* Andreas Möller (Borussia Dortmund)
* Oliver Reck (Werder Bremen)
* Stefan Reuter (Borussia Dortmund)
* Matthias Sammer (Borussia Dortmund)
* René Schneider (Hansa Rostock)
* Mehmet Scholl (Bayern München)
* Thomas Strunz (Bayern München)
* Jens Todt (Werder Bremen)
* Christian Ziege (Bayern München)




The Bundesliga was at this time "better" and the the Big Clubs at this time (FCB and BVB) played with many more highclass germany as today!
Check out the Players from Dortmund:
Sammer was Europes Player of the Year 1996
They bought Reuter, Kohler and Möller from Juve.

Players like Oliver Bierhoff(AC Milan), Ziege(AC Milan) and Babbel(Liverpool) played later for bigger clubs outside of germany.

Köpke and Hässler played before the EC in another League, Mario Basler joined later Bayern München and so on..

[Alex_K]

Apart from the 90 team, which other winning or a finalist German team had more players playing outside than in the Bundesliga?

The 1990 World cup team had exactly 5 players playing abroad.

[Alex_K]

t
these days we have players playing for Hertha in the national team!


And that REALLY hurt us in the 70's... Erich Beer anyone? :eek:

[herewego]

Germany lacks of sprinters, you can see it at the international athletics competitions or the olympic games.
In the big view, that is not a big difference to former years, in general it was always that way.

And Germany lacks on skillful flair players on international top level, we have no Ronaldinhos or Henrys. Again, in general that has never been the other way, but in former days we always had at least 1 or 2 fine worldclass level dribblers that won most of their 1:1 plays.

So the tendency ever was, that we could only compete with the brazillians or the hollanders, the french, argentinians, italians by throwimg in other things. Tactics that takes care of the others advantage in individual skill, better stamina, better teamspirit, better fitness.

If they were obviously better in attack, we built the better defense, if they played short passing and dribbling, we played long ball, if they were mostly compact small dribblers, we played crosses and headers.
If we were not fast enough, we played a deeply standing defense with a libero who secures against through coming dribblers.

Therefore Germany always had some of the best strategic thinking liberos and midfielders. That was our big advantage, we played the possession game, we kept the ball until the opponents got tired and won in the end. As Herberger said:" A game lasts 90 minutes".

But the game made some big transition in the late eighties mid nineties.
One was the changing in the rules, that forbid sliding tackles from the back, which was very useful for players which were slower than the attackers and over all the ruling got in favor of the attackers, because yellow and red cards were given much earlier and more often.

An other was the inovation of 3 or 4 men line defenses without libero playing for the offside trap, the playable pitch thereby got much smaller, playmaking now took only place between the two defense lines which lined up about 25 meters left and right from the middle line.

That hit the germans play. Long passing wasn´t productive anymore, it wasn´t as easy as before to get wingers in the position to hit dangerously crossings, the tall forwards where kept away from the box. But shortpassing and fast one touch play, give and goes and 1:1 dribblings were more necessary than before.

So all in all, the new tactical scheme does not play in the hands of the germans traditional strenghts, but benefitted the faster and the flairy dribblers.

On the other hand: FIFA board reacted to the boring game that was promoted by the offside traps, changed the offside rule and at the last Euro you could see the first teams, that sent forwards into the offside trap to confuse the defense line, while a second striker starting inside, receives the pass just in time, and then over run this player in the offside and the defense, builds-up a new play situation and then plays the ball back to the former offside teammate.

From the best and innovative teams in the CL you see that more and more, remember how Inzaghi and Sheva penetratd the defenseline of Bayern that way.

My fear is, that Klinsmann reacts now and to late to the changing of the game from the nineties, tries to play the attacking and fast one touch football with short passing and dribbling, with german players which not fit as well to that system as players from many other countries, just at a point, were there may be a restauration of the deeper standing defense.

If the best teams now play with this wave kind over-run attacks, with 1:1 dribblings, with penetrating the hole between 2 defenders on the line, if offside trap is much more riskie cause of the new rulings, then it could be wise to play with a sweeper behind the defenders again.

From this point of view, it might be not as surprising as we all thought of it, that just the only team that played seemingly old fashioned with libero behind the defense, in the end won the Euro. The Greeks were just someway unbeatable, the modern midfielders and strikers are not used anymore to play such a defense and all their new systems and tactics were developed to hurt a line defense and the offside-trap, but not a deep defense that does not even try to build an offside trap, but always had a sweeper in the backhand to secure against through balls, or double up against dribblers.

[Psychosis hsv]

Germany lacks of sprinters, you can see it at the international athletics competitions or the olympic games.
In the big view, that is not a big difference to former years, in general it was always that way.

And Germany lacks on skillful flair players on international top level, we have no Ronaldinhos or Henrys. Again, in general that has never been the other way, but in former days we always had at least 1 or 2 fine worldclass level dribblers that won most of their 1:1 plays.

So the tendency ever was, that we could only compete with the brazillians or the hollanders, the french, argentinians, italians by throwimg in other things. Tactics that takes care of the others advantage in individual skill, better stamina, better teamspirit, better fitness.

If they were obviously better in attack, we built the better defense, if they played short passing and dribbling, we played long ball, if they were mostly compact small dribblers, we played crosses and headers.
If we were not fast enough, we played a deeply standing defense with a libero who secures against through coming dribblers.

Therefore Germany always had some of the best strategic thinking liberos and midfielders. That was our big advantage, we played the possession game, we kept the ball until the opponents got tired and won in the end. As Herberger said:" A game lasts 90 minutes".

But the game made some big transition in the late eighties mid nineties.
One was the changing in the rules, that forbid sliding tackles from the back, which was very useful for players which were slower than the attackers and over all the ruling got in favor of the attackers, because yellow and red cards were given much earlier and more often.

An other was the inovation of 3 or 4 men line defenses without libero playing for the offside trap, the playable pitch thereby got much smaller, playmaking now took only place between the two defense lines which lined up about 25 meters left and right from the middle line.

That hit the germans play. Long passing wasn´t productive anymore, it wasn´t as easy as before to get wingers in the position to hit dangerously crossings, the tall forwards where kept away from the box. But shortpassing and fast one touch play, give and goes and 1:1 dribblings were more necessary than before.

So all in all, the new tactical scheme does not play in the hands of the germans traditional strenghts, but benefitted the faster and the flairy dribblers.

On the other hand: FIFA board reacted to the boring game that was promoted by the offside traps, changed the offside rule and at the last Euro you could see the first teams, that sent forwards into the offside trap to confuse the defense line, while a second striker starting inside, receives the pass just in time, and then over run this player in the offside and the defense, builds-up a new play situation and then plays the ball back to the former offside teammate.

From the best and innovative teams in the CL you see that more and more, remember how Inzaghi and Sheva penetratd the defenseline of Bayern that way.

My fear is, that Klinsmann reacts now and to late to the changing of the game from the nineties, tries to play the attacking and fast one touch football with short passing and dribbling, with german players which not fit as well to that system as players from many other countries, just at a point, were there may be a restauration of the deeper standing defense.

If the best teams now play with this wave kind over-run attacks, with 1:1 dribblings, with penetrating the hole between 2 defenders on the line, if offside trap is much more riskie cause of the new rulings, then it could be wise to play with a sweeper behind the defenders again.

From this point of view, it might be not as surprising as we all thought of it, that just the only team that played seemingly old fashioned with libero behind the defense, in the end won the Euro. The Greeks were just someway unbeatable, the modern midfielders and strikers are not used anymore to play such a defense and all their new systems and tactics were developed to hurt a line defense and the offside-trap, but not a deep defense that does not even try to build an offside trap, but always had a sweeper in the backhand to secure against through balls, or double up against dribblers.
i agree with you on what i have made bold

[Psychosis hsv]

The 1990 World cup team had exactly 5 players playing abroad.
you said earlier germany had only 5 players in starting 11 that playede abroad. thank you for claryfying that. but look now
1.arsenal
2.hertha
3bayern
4 h96
5. chelsea-bench warmer
6.bvb
7leverkursen
8bayern
9.werder
10.koln
11.bayern
they obviously lack what it takes to perform in major competition