Question for experienced Refs....

[Dr Jay]

At my U-18 son's league game this past weekend, within the first 10 mins of the game, a keeper punted the ball from the top of the box.

The AR in that half of the field immediately waved his flag, the center came over, conferred with the AR and the center called for a direct free kick from just outside the penalty area. A goal was scored.

Without debating whether or not the keeper actually released the ball within the area, is it appropriate to call this in such a game at that point in the game ? Would it be more appropriate for the AR or the center to warn the keeper (similar to holding the ball longer than 6 secs) that if he did it a second time, a free kick would then be called ?

[blech]

i don't know that there is a right or wrong answer. i personally tend to think that this is more in the category of trivial and be inclined to deal with it with a warning (i.e., "watch your line, keep!") if at all. and you will undoubtedly hear many others that will say the same. but it's not like the goalie gets a "free pass" and should think that he needn't worry because the most he's likely to get is a warning. if he went over the line, he went over the line, and it was certainly within the realm of possibility to be called for it.

other factors/considerations: how were the markings on the field? how far over the line did the keeper go before releasing the ball? was there some strategical reason to do it other than merely getting an extra foot of distance? has the ref team had some experience with this in the past, either together or specifically with this goalie? i'm sure there are others, but these immediately come to mind. also, i'll tell you that i've spoken with refs who really think this is a big deal - i think that puts them in the minority, but again the fact that you might get a warning from one doesn't mean anything respect to the ref team that was at your son's game.

[IASocFan]

Thanks blech. I was about to respond something similar, but you pretty well covered my thoughts.

[Ref Flunkie]

This is something I specifically cover in my pre-game now because I've seen so many ARs (young and old) call this. Blech has been nice enough to read my mind as well as IASocFan's, so no reason to harp on this too much, but here is how I look at it:

1. Is it handling outside the area? Yes
2. What advantage is the keeper gaining by the extra 12" or so? In theory, only 12" more on the punt that is already going 50-60 yards, so what 0.5% more distance? This falls into the trifiling category for me.
3. In cases that it is called without a warning, apparently a referee feels that a DFK (and resulting goal in your case) is a fair punishment for the keeper (likely accidently) getting an extra 0.5% distance on his kick. Does not sound like justice to me.


In my pre-game I tell my ARs to warn him (loud enough so I can hear it), and if we really must, we can nail him later on it because we both know he was warned.

[Claymore]

Calling it that early, and with no prior warning, strikes me as "gotcha" refereeing - technically correct, but you've just pissed off an entire team so you can show your knowledge of the laws. What's worse, you've just opened yourself up to being challenged on every ticky-tack foul for the rest of the game; I'd be willing to bet that's exactly what happened.

[Wreave]

Without debating whether or not the keeper actually released the ball within the area, is it appropriate to call this in such a game at that point in the game ?

Is it appropriate? Yes.

Would it be more appropriate for the AR or the center to warn the keeper (similar to holding the ball longer than 6 secs) that if he did it a second time, a free kick would then be called ?

Would it be more appropriate to warn on the first offense, presuming the offense was minor (only a little bit over the line) and trifling (not impactful to play)? Also yes.

There is nothing inherently wrong with making the call. By doing so, the ref sets a pretty high standard for his calls in the remainder of the game. However, most refs will warn on the first offense, if it is minor.

A minor offense, at least in my book, is a release over the line while the keeper stays within the area. At that age, keepers should know better, and know where the line is, but if they stay within the PA but their hands come over the line with the ball, a warning is appropriate. If a U18 keeper steps over the line still holding the ball, the ball's not just a foot over the line, it's now three or four feet, plus it's a very visible foul to the spectators and other players.

Jim Allen notes, "However, under other circumstances, such as the goalkeeper accidentally carrying the ball over the line marking the penalty area while releasing it so that others may play it, this could be a trifling infringement and the intelligent referee might overlook the matter."

You realize of course, that posting this question looks a lot like sour grapes. We don't know how far out the keeper took the ball either, which makes it hard to give a fair assessment. In general, yes, a warning for a minor and trifling offense would have been fair, but whistling the foul is fair too - hopefully, the ref continued to call the game to the standard set by that whistle.

[billf]

Generally, an experienced AR is going to warn the keeper first. Some keepers will still dare you to call it after that and it really is an uncomfortable thing to call. In a U-18 match, I'd expect the ARs to know what they're doing. Maybe its possible the AR or Referee warned the keeper on another possession? I know it was only 10 minutes in but its still possible. At least having it happen during the first 10 minutes gave the team 80 minutes to pull it back. Had the situation been reversed, it would be much tougher to swallow, I'm sure.

[USSF REF]

While "technically correct" -- the Referee should not have given the free kick here. (In most cases). However, the Referee was probably left with little choice once the AR elected to raise his flag and beckon the Referee over there for it. The Referee discussing this at pre-game will help eliminate this problem.

The violation that has occurred here is so unimportant to the game that calling it comes off to the fans as "I'm calling this foul just so everyone knows that WE know the laws and WE make the decisions!" It draws unnecessary attention to the refereeing team and can spoil the match for the players. Certainly, after that the Referee and AR's MUST adhere to the same tight standard on all punts for the rest of that match, and if they don't they will have BIG problems.

A lot of referee's fail to see the larger picture here, which is what effect did the handling have on the match? If a keeper picks up the ball just outside the area to prevent an opponent from winning the ball then this is something you must deal with. The GK has unfairly taken a chance at the ball away from the opponents. On a punting situation, the opponents have NO chance to win the ball as they cannot directly challenge the keeper for it or prevent the ball's release into play. So what's a few inches here? This can be construed as "trifiling".

Would it be different if the keeper ran 2 or 3 yards out of the box? YES. That would be blatent and way too obvious to ignore. But in this case, I think the AR should have simply warned the keeper, as you say. If I was the Referee I would be upset with the AR after the game, but if I hadn't spoken with the AR about if before the game I really wouldn't be able to blame them.

The Referee's only other option would have been to have a dropped ball spot below where the ball was when the Referee decided play was stopped, if after the AR provided his advice the Referee decided that no offense had been committed, thus the whistle had sounded inadvertantly. But then, you might leave the AR feeling like you threw him under the bus... never a good prospect.

[Statesman]

Goalkeeper's are human too and as such make mistakes. If all we're talking about is a minor carry-over while releasing the ball then I don't even warn the first time. What I'll do is watch for it again, though, and when it occurs let the keeper know to pay better attention. After that, it's an offense that gets called.

If it is not too minor, I will warn the first time I see it and then call the second time. I don't think it is that difficult to tell if the keeper just made a simple mistake or if he is pushing the line on purpose. I can't condone punishment on the first offense unless it comes across as a clear violation in my opinion.

[Dr Jay]

Thanks all for your thoughtful answers.

This was the keepers first touch of the game and, if he went over the line at all (I didn't think he did, but I certainly didn't have the angle the AR did), it was a small amount.

It certainly seemed to be a trifling call that essentially changed the entire outcome of the game. I wondered if a verbal warning might have been more appropriate for the first offense but the suggestion that if a refereeing team is going to be "hard ass" about this call, it should be mentioned in pre game discussion.

[sandaroo]

I wondered if a verbal warning might have been more appropriate for the first offense but the suggestion that if a refereeing team is going to be "hard ass" about this call, it should be mentioned in pre game discussion.

pre-game discussion? With who...the team captains?
Sorry but I don't discuss how I'm going to officiate with the captains nor the coaches. Now if you meant the pre-game that the refs have that's a different story because the whole referee crew should be on the same page.

[bluedevils]

I agree with the majority opinion here - warn first on minor infringement, then penalize on 2nd occurrence.

This was mentioned by the guest speaker at a state recert a couple years back; IIRC, Brian Hall was the guest speaker. His take was very similar -- this is trifling and there is no reason to call it unless the GK clearly abuses the privilege or blatantly ignores the warning(s) of the officiating team.

[Wreave]

I did AR a BU14 at a tournament last summer, in which the keeper consistently tested the referee team. He spotted his first couple goal kicks outside the goal area by a couple of feet, for example. The first, I let go as trifling. The second, obviously a pattern we didn't want to continue, I flagged and they did a rekick. No more issues with that the rest of the game. However, he also kept taking the ball out of the top of the PA. The lines were well-marked, and it wasn't like he was still inside the PA and did a release over the line - he carried the ball all the way out of the PA, with his plant foot well over the line. This one took three whistles/DFKs for him to start releasing it inside the PA. I didn't care if his hand went over, but when he stepped out and kept doing it, it was an issue.

His team still won something like 4-0, but it was clear that he was testing the resolve of the ref team to address these issues. That's not trifling/accidental, it's deliberate, and needed to be addressed.

[macheath]

I did AR a BU14 at a tournament last summer, in which the keeper consistently tested the referee team. He spotted his first couple goal kicks outside the goal area by a couple of feet, for example. The first, I let go as trifling. The second, obviously a pattern we didn't want to continue, I flagged and they did a rekick. No more issues with that the rest of the game. However, he also kept taking the ball out of the top of the PA. The lines were well-marked, and it wasn't like he was still inside the PA and did a release over the line - he carried the ball all the way out of the PA, with his plant foot well over the line. This one took three whistles/DFKs for him to start releasing it inside the PA. I didn't care if his hand went over, but when he stepped out and kept doing it, it was an issue.

His team still won something like 4-0, but it was clear that he was testing the resolve of the ref team to address these issues. That's not trifling/accidental, it's deliberate, and needed to be addressed.

The second or third time, don't you need to talk to him directly (maybe you did), saying "Keeper, stay inside the area when you kick the ball. This is the Nth time I've talked to you about this. You can be cautioned for this." I never say "I'll caution you next time," leads to even more BS (not Big Soccer) and testing of limits. But the above almost always works for these testing situations.

[aevange8]

I want to know what advantage you are at even being in a position to make this call?? Typically I abandon the keeper and get back in line with the second to last defender. I have seen a lot of headers from punts come back over the central defenders...if you are standing by the 18 yard line that gives you about 2 seconds to cover 30 yards to get back with the back four. I think your time is better served up the touch line (you can still usually tell about where the keeper releases the ball if you care).

[Ref Flunkie]

I want to know what advantage you are at even being in a position to make this call?? Typically I abandon the keeper and get back in line with the second to last defender. I have seen a lot of headers from punts come back over the central defenders...if you are standing by the 18 yard line that gives you about 2 seconds to cover 30 yards to get back with the back four. I think your time is better served up the touch line (you can still usually tell about where the keeper releases the ball if you care).


To be honest, most of the time kids are that deep on keeper punts. It is a rare day that the defenders are up near midfield upon the release of the ball.

[aevange8]

kids, maybe...but higher level youth/amatuer/etc they tend to push up especially when they have a keeper that has long clearances

[USSF REF]

kids, maybe...but higher level youth/amatuer/etc they tend to push up especially when they have a keeper that has long clearances

This is true.

[NHRef]

The trailing AR is also staring straight into the wall if the FK is on his side of the field, gives another set of eyes to watch things.

[ctsoccer13]

Would you provide the same leniency on a throw-in if a player steps over the line? An initial warning, or call it? Just wondering, because in honesty, how much of an advantage is gained in that instance.