How much leeway to keeper coming off the line on PK?

[NHRef]

I have a question for the collective minds here.

Last night in a U15B premier tournament, first game for both teams, the following happened. I was AR. Wondering where to draw the "trifiling" line on keepers coming off the line on a PK.

Exactly how much leeway should be allowed the keeper on a PK for coming off the line? I was AR for this, two PKs given, first PK keeper stayed on line and just before the shot took a baby step out. I let it go as trifling, ball missed the net anyway. PK2, same keeper he STARTED about 1 foot infront of the line, then when the CR blew the whistle, but before the kick, he took a big step forward. At the time of the kick he was about 4 feet off the goal line. I signalled it to the CR and he made them retake the kick (keeper saved the kick) and on the re-take it was a goal. The other AR (who is a grade 5)warned me, at halftime, to be VERY carefull making that call, I would get crucified in a big game.

At the half the keeper admitted to his coach he did come off the line.

The keeper is suppose to stay on the line, they never do, but where do you draw the line and call it?

[Chas (Psyatika)]

The other AR (who is a grade 5)warned me, at halftime, to be VERY carefull making that call, I would get crucified in a big game.I love how some referees assume they're the only competent referee in the world. You made the right call, and it was glaringly obvious. You should continue that kind of consistency in big games, not be afraid to make the right call out of fear of being "crucified".

But anyway, i let it go if it's a couple feet or fewer, or just let it go entirely if the ball misses the goal or goes straight to the keeper. I guess i'm slightly to the left when it comes to the keeper coming off the line.

[Wreave]

It sounds like you got it exactly right. The 05 was correct in suggesting you be careful, but certainly had no business making the call from his end of the field.

At a bare minimum, the keeper MUST start on the line. Not even being on the line is simply thumbing the nose at the referee and the laws. As for coming off before the kick, at that age/level, one step is OK (i.e. one foot still on the line), two steps probably not. You also have to determine if the step was trifling or not.

Example, if the keeper took a step forward, then broke right, and the kick was left and went wide, let it go. If the kick was in fact to the right and the keeper made the save, call it if you think the keeper's advance led to the save.

This is also a good thing to discuss in pregame with CR.

[njref]

A big part of the problem is the CR starting the PK with the keeper already off the line. What message does that send to the AR, when this has not been covered in the pre-game?

[HeadHunter]

A big part of the problem is the CR starting the PK with the keeper already off the line. What message does that send to the AR, when this has not been covered in the pre-game?

true this needs to be covered in the pre-game, but it is also possible for the AR to speak to the keeper. In these situations the AR has come in close enough so as to be heard- I would view this as similar to talking to players as they play the ball deep in the ARs corner. Obviously you don't want to do it when it might distract the keeper, but the AR can be proactive here as well. As to what I give I'm with those above. Start on the line and you get a half step- ie one leg forward but no more.

[blech]

***

At a bare minimum, the keeper MUST start on the line. Not even being on the line is simply thumbing the nose at the referee and the laws.

***

if goalie won't get on the line, you have a definite problem to deal with. and, absolutely correct that the goalie must start on the line. one issue for this scenario as i read the ATR is that the CR should not give the signal for the kick until this has occurred.

i was on a crew where it happened once (fortunately not in the middle myself), and am always careful to double check it now.

[hornetbiz]

I'll give you my take as a keeper...I don't know if this will affect the way you call this situation (I think it does affect the way I call it).

As a keeper my theory on PKs was that I wasn't expected to make the save so therefore all the pressure is on the kicker. I also didn't like to full out guess. I would take clues like plant foot and hips and maybe lean slightly one way or the other, but the thing I always did was get off of my line as far as I could. It cuts down the angle and gives the keeper a better chance to save the PK that isn't perfectly placed in the side netting. I didn't care if the ref called me for it and made the kicker retake, because now the pressure on the kicker is even greater. The keeper is in the kicker's head a little, the kicker has more to think about...does he go the same way?...does he change direction?...does he kick it harder?

All these thoughts just increase the likelyhood that the keeper might have a shot at a save and that's all a keeper is looking for.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

I was also a keeper, and i also refused to guess. But i never came off the line. I always just reacted to the shot, jumped at about a 10 degree angle from the goal line, and was able to save plenty.

[hornetbiz]

I was also a keeper, and i also refused to guess. But i never came off the line. I always just reacted to the shot, jumped at about a 10 degree angle from the goal line, and was able to save plenty.

Trust me, it helps immensely to cut down the angle...even if it's just a little...The farther away from the goalline, the less distance you have to travel laterally to be able to cover either post. So if you come off the line and dive at an angle away from the goal you can effectively protect more goal.

[CarRamRod]

What do you guys think about telling/showing the keeper exactly how far off their line they can come without you calling it? The other day in an indoor game (decent level coed recreational) I told a goalie to start on the line and take a half step forward before diving. At the time I was more concerned about him diving into the post (the goals are rather small) but I saw this conversation and it seems like a fair way to proactively handle a situation where a huge call is made inconsistently from referee to referee.

[macheath]

What do you guys think about telling/showing the keeper exactly how far off their line they can come without you calling it? The other day in an indoor game (decent level coed recreational) I told a goalie to start on the line and take a half step forward before diving. At the time I was more concerned about him diving into the post (the goals are rather small) but I saw this conversation and it seems like a fair way to proactively handle a situation where a huge call is made inconsistently from referee to referee.

Generally not a good idea to show things to players like this. Then they go right up to the spot, or a half step over, and then say "but ref, you said..." I think others here have it right--say "keeper, stay on your line, both of you, wait for my signal (I use the whistle and point at it)", look everything over, then off you go. If the keeper movement is trivial, let it go.

[NHRef]

I agree you really don't want to tell/show him how far you let him go. Two reasons:

1) rule says on the line, not a little over
2) if you consider x feet/inches/yards trifling, and tell him this, this becomes the new "on the line" and you then get trifling past that.

Still, I haven't gotten much feedback on if I should have let this one pass. I guess its really a "you had to be there" or I shouldn't have made the call.

Any others have any feedback on how you judge this or not?

[macheath]

I agree you really don't want to tell/show him how far you let him go. Two reasons:

1) rule says on the line, not a little over
2) if you consider x feet/inches/yards trifling, and tell him this, this becomes the new "on the line" and you then get trifling past that.

Still, I haven't gotten much feedback on if I should have let this one pass. I guess its really a "you had to be there" or I shouldn't have made the call.

Any others have any feedback on how you judge this or not?

From your description, I would have done the same. Four feet off the line at the time the shot is taken is too much, in my book. I think it's hard to set an exact distance--for me it's more timing. If they start on the line, as required, then it's hard for them to get too far forward unles they really jump out at the whistle for the shot (like Brianna Scurry did against China in the shootout final of the Women's World Cup, and got away with it).

Anything more than a foot or so, especially if they can reach that position before the ball is struck, gives the keeper a real benefit, and I'd call it. I know that's still a judgement call--did the move off the line give the keeper a real, nontrivial benefit in blocking the shot--but that's what I'd be trying to assess.

[vilafria]

Doesn't sound like anyone here would call for a re-take if the ball went wide and the keeper started way up ( 4 ft even ) off the line. Sorry, but that's not right, the kicker could have been intimidated enough to scuff the shot.
I'm not a goalie , so there is no love lost for those who infringe the stay on the line rule.

[Ref Flunkie]

Doesn't sound like anyone here would call for a re-take if the ball went wide and the keeper started way up ( 4 ft even ) off the line. Sorry, but that's not right, the kicker could have been intimidated enough to scuff the shot.
I'm not a goalie , so there is no love lost for those who infringe the stay on the line rule.


Huh? It sounds like MOST of us WOULD call the kick back if the ball did not go in but the keeper was way off his line. The debate comes as to what distance is considered trifiling (and again, I think most of us here have said a yard or more is not trifiling). I personally think NHRef got it right.

[NHRef]

Doesn't sound like anyone here would call for a re-take if the ball went wide and the keeper started way up ( 4 ft even ) off the line. Sorry, but that's not right, the kicker could have been intimidated enough to scuff the shot.
I'm not a goalie , so there is no love lost for those who infringe the stay on the line rule.

There were two PK at this keeper, first he started on the line and the shot went wide. On the second PK at the end of that half is the one I am questioning, he jumped AND made the save with a dive, that one I called back.

As an aside, I had a chance to touch base face to face with a friend who is an 06 and got to show him what happened, his reaction: "good call".