Confusion over FIFA rules

[Zwanzigoetzel]

Not that it really matters for Germany, since we'll win all three group games, but just in case....this should be clarified....BEFOREHAND ;)

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,409755,00.html

[poorvi]

Can you explain the what the confusion is for the sake of those who are not fluent in the German language?

I tried the translator but it is just as confusing.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fsport%2Ffussball%2F0%2C1518%2C409755%2C00.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

[AGF Aarhus]

Can you explain the what the confusion is for the sake of those who are not fluent in the German language?
DFB website says that a tie is broken by direct competition. FIFA says goal difference is the first tie breaker. Since FIFA is the one making the rules ...

[Zwanzigoetzel]

Can you explain the what the confusion is for the sake of those who are not fluent in the German language?

I tried the translator but it is just as confusing.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fsport%2Ffussball%2F0%2C1518%2C409755%2C00.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools


I apologize....basically as per DFB rules, when two teams within a group won the same amount of games, the direct comparison takes effect. Meaning if for example Germany is first and Costa Rica second, and Germany won against Costa Rica, Germany will be first in the group. After that the amount of goals in THAT game will be counted. Whoever has more is first.

As per FIFA, the total amount of goals for all the group games will be counted. Whoever has more will be first in the group. After that, the direct comparison would take effect if need be.

For me the DFB rule makes more sense and I believed it was handled like that in all previous World Cups but I guess I was wrong....

[AGF Aarhus]

I apologize....basically as per DFB rules, when two teams within a group won the same amount of games, the direct comparison takes effect. Meaning if for example Germany is first and Costa Rica second, and Germany won against Costa Rica, Germany will be first in the group. After that the amount of goals in THAT game will be counted. Whoever has more is first.

As per FIFA, the total amount of goals for all the group games will be counted. Whoever has more will be first in the group. After that, the direct comparison would take effect if need be.

For me the DFB rule makes more sense and I believed it was handled like that in all previous World Cups but I guess I was wrong....
This is not a very good expanation (sorry).

The DFB says that if two teams have the same number of points, not just the same number of wins (remember, teams can tie), at the end of the group stage, head to head competition determines the placing in the group. These are not the DFB rules for the WC, since the DFB doesn't make rules for FIFA competitions.

FIFA says that in this situation, head to head competition is not the first tie-breaker, but goal differential (not total goals scored, but goal differential. 3-0 is better than 5-4). This is what has always been the case in the WC, and since FIFA makes rules for FIFA competition, I think it's clear which body to believe.

This article is just a complicated way of Spiegel saying that the DFB posted wrong information.

[JLSA]

This is not a very good expanation (sorry).

The DFB says that if two teams have the same number of points, not just the same number of wins (remember, teams can tie), at the end of the group stage, head to head competition determines the placing in the group. These are not the DFB rules for the WC, since the DFB doesn't make rules for FIFA competitions.

FIFA says that in this situation, head to head competition is not the first tie-breaker, but goal differential (not total goals scored, but goal differential. 3-0 is better than 5-4). This is what has always been the case in the WC, and since FIFA makes rules for FIFA competition, I think it's clear which body to believe.

This article is just a complicated way of Spiegel saying that the DFB posted wrong information.

Where does "FIFA say this". The rules they released at the start of the qualifiers said precisely what Spiegel says.

In particular, section 5 of Article 32 of the FIFA WC 2006 regulations states.


Ranking in each group shall be determined as follows:
(a) greater number of points obtained in all the group matches;

If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above criterion,
their ranking shall be determined as follows:
(b) greater number of points obtained in the group matches
between the teams concerned;
(c) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the
teams concerned;
(d) greater number of goals scored in the group matches between
the teams concerned;
(e) goal difference in all the group matches;
(f) greater number of goals scored in all the group matches;
(g) drawing lots by the Organising Committee for the FIFA World
CupTM.


They may have changed it subsequently, but it would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

J

[AGF Aarhus]

But this is what Spiegel says:
Bei der Fifa ist dieser Fall ganz anders geregelt. Dort gilt zunächst das Torverhältnis aus allen Gruppenspielen. Dann folgt der Punkt "Anzahl der in allen Gruppenspielen erzielten Tore". Erst wenn die Teams in diesen Punkten identisch sind, zählt der direkte Vergleich.

Ein Beispiel: Deutschland schlägt Costa Rica im Auftaktspiel 1:0, gewinnt gegen Polen 2:0, verliert gegen Ecuador 1:2; macht sechs Punkte, Torverhältnis 4:2. Gewinnt nun Costa Rica seine Spiele gegen Polen zum Beispiel 2:0 und gegen Ecuador 3:0 hat die Elf ebenfalls sechs Punkte, Torverhältnis 5:1.

Nach der DFB-Version wäre, siegt Ecuador nicht gegen Polen, Deutschland Gruppenerster, da das Team den direkten Vergleich gegen Costa Rica gewonnen hat. Laut Fifa ist aber Costa Rica wegen des besseren Torverhältnisses vorn.
Which is exactly what I wrote.

[JLSA]

But this is what Spiegel says:

Which is exactly what I wrote.

Yuhuh.

But, I don't read German. So, does it say in the article where FIFA says the thing it says FIFA says, or does it just say FIFA says the thing it says FIFA says without saying where FIFA says it? Coz I've shown you something where FIFA says what Spiegel says the DFB says, which it says it different to what FIFA says, so we need to see where it says FIFA says what is says FIFA says.

Well?

J

[AGF Aarhus]

I'm not disagreeing with you JLSA, so calm down. I'm simply describing what is in the article. If you don't read German, you shouldn't jump on someones back who does when he tells you what is in an article.

The article gives an example:
Germany beats Costa Rica 1-0 and Poland 2-0, but loses to Ecuador 1-2.
Costa Rica then beats Poland 2-0 and Ecuador 3-0.

Both teams have 6 points, Germany beat Costa Rica head to head, but has a goal difference of 4-2, Costa Rica has 5-1.

The article says that according to the DFB, Gemany places ahead of Costa Rica because of the head to head result, but that according to FIFA ('Laut Fifa'), Costa Rica finishes on top because of the better goal difference.

That is an accurate translation. If you dispute the facts of the article, take it up with Spiegel, not me.

[JLSA]

I'm not disagreeing with you JLSA, so calm down. I'm simply describing what is in the article. If you don't read German, you shouldn't jump on someones back who does when he tells you what is in an article.

The article gives an example:
Germany beats Costa Rica 1-0 and Poland 2-0, but loses to Ecuador 1-2.
Costa Rica then beats Poland 2-0 and Ecuador 3-0.

Both teams have 6 points, Germany beat Costa Rica head to head, but has a goal difference of 4-2, Costa Rica has 5-1.

The article says that according to the DFB, Gemany places ahead of Costa Rica because of the head to head result, but that according to FIFA ('Laut Fifa'), Costa Rica finishes on top because of the better goal difference.

That is an accurate translation. If you dispute the facts of the article, take it up with Spiegel, not me.


I'm actually not jumping down your throat. I'm trying to find out if the "FIFA" source is an actual document, or, as I suspect, is Spiegel quoting old regulations because they are too stupid to realise they might actually ever change (as a number of journalists did during the qualifiers).

So, the question remains: does the article give any sort of indication of how FIFA said this - or is it just "laut FIFA" (that is, "I'm pretty sure that's how FIFA have always done it and I'm too bone idle to actually check my own facts"*)

J

* - just so you don't get the wrong idea, that's the Spiegel I'm quoting, not you.

[AGF Aarhus]

No prob.

The article simply quites FIFA as its source, but does not say who or what from FIFA.

At the end they include quotes from someone from the DFB whose reaction amounts to 'huh, that's ood. I wonder how that happened. We'll have to look in to that.'

[IASocFan]

Part of the problem is that, if Ecuador also beats Poland, then it's no longer a 2 way tie, but a three way tie with 3 teams having 6 points!

[AGF Aarhus]

Part of the problem is that, if Ecuador also beats Poland, then it's no longer a 2 way tie, but a three way tie with 3 teams having 6 points!
Yes, but the article also says:

siegt Ecuador nicht gegen Polen
' ... Ecuador does not win against Poland ...'

[Zwanzigoetzel]

This is not a very good expanation (sorry).

The DFB says that if two teams have the same number of points, not just the same number of wins (remember, teams can tie), at the end of the group stage, head to head competition determines the placing in the group. These are not the DFB rules for the WC, since the DFB doesn't make rules for FIFA competitions.

FIFA says that in this situation, head to head competition is not the first tie-breaker, but goal differential (not total goals scored, but goal differential. 3-0 is better than 5-4). This is what has always been the case in the WC, and since FIFA makes rules for FIFA competition, I think it's clear which body to believe.

This article is just a complicated way of Spiegel saying that the DFB posted wrong information.


Yepp, you've got ! Thanks for the correction.

[dwm5]

Where does "FIFA say this". The rules they released at the start of the qualifiers said precisely what Spiegel says.

They may have changed it subsequently, but it would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

J

FIFA did change the rules back to the old tie-breaking system. If you download the current regulations from their site, you'll see. The ranking procedure you quoted (head-to-head tiebreakers first) was from an earlier draft of the WC regulations; I believe they were experimenting with it during the youth tournaments as well, but decided to abandon it.