No ex-post-facto sanctions for diving

[USSF REF]

FIFA rule out retrospective action against divers (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=363800&cc=5901)

I don't understand FIFA... If you want to take a hard line against cheating, they should be welcoming after the match video review of diving!

Dives are intended to deceive the Referee -- so if a player executes a dive well and fools the referee, as he has practiced doing, he can reap all of the benefits of his actions and not face any sanctions later? What a great message FIFA has sent prior to the World Cup. "You shouldn't dive because the Referee will punish you, but if you get away with it by deceiving the Referee deliberatly, then GOOD FOR YOU! :D "

If FIFA so abhors the practice of diving, they should recognize that sometimes a dive WILL deceive the Referee, after all thats the whole point of it. They should take a hard line against it and say "IF you are caught diving in match and you get away with it, and the dive has some kind of significant impact on the match like a penalty for your team or a caution or send-off to an opponent, then you will be suspended and fined! Period." FIFA cannot place all of the emphasis on the Referee to catch all dives, it's extremly difficult to spot some dives and at high speeds from even minimal distances a Ref can be tricked. To say the Referee must catch the dive on the spot or it's ok -- is folly. I wonder how many of those people have ever had the try and spot simulation in an international match...

Get rid of diving, let the video review in. Sometimes draconian measures are indeed needed. If that eliminates some of the diving, it will help the Referee's do their job! PLUS It will improve the game for its own sake -- and it will be more enjoyable to the players and fans.

[NHRef]

I agree with them. Calling/not calling a dive is a definite ITOOTR, and all judgements by the referee are suppose to be final.

Just wish they would stick with this and not review cards and change them from red to yellow.

[Wreave]

I'm with USSF Ref. Of all the things that FIFA is willing to review after a match, how can this not be one?

I would think a referee would welcome it as well. Heck, have the referee of the match be one of the reviewers, with veto power. If he sees it on video and still says it's not a dive, then it's not a dive. However, you have to believe many of them see the video afterwards and wish they had but known.

I'm not even talking about the questionable stuff. If all they did was fine or otherwise penalize the really blatent, no contact, oscar-worthy performances, the game would be better for it.

[bluedevils]

Of all the things that FIFA is willing to review after a match, how can this not be one?

Great point.

[GlennAA11]

Perhaps FIFA is trying to rely on frontier justice. Let a guy get a rep as diver that becomes well known and no referee ever calls a foul in his favor ever again.

[ref47]

but, if you are going to punish the player on review, where does that leave the outcome of the match? if the dive earned a pk that was the winning goal, can you stop at the player's punishment and not change the match result? and how do you judge how the outcome changed the match dynamics? i don't think we can go into these dark waters.

[Shackleton]

FIFA rule out retrospective action against divers (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=363800&cc=5901)

I don't understand FIFA... If you want to take a hard line against cheating, they should be welcoming after the match video review of diving!

Dives are intended to deceive the Referee -- so if a player executes a dive well and fools the referee, as he has practiced doing, he can reap all of the benefits of his actions and not face any sanctions later? What a great message FIFA has sent prior to the World Cup. "You shouldn't dive because the Referee will punish you, but if you get away with it by deceiving the Referee deliberatly, then GOOD FOR YOU! :D "

If FIFA so abhors the practice of diving, they should recognize that sometimes a dive WILL deceive the Referee, after all thats the whole point of it. They should take a hard line against it and say "IF you are caught diving in match and you get away with it, and the dive has some kind of significant impact on the match like a penalty for your team or a caution or send-off to an opponent, then you will be suspended and fined! Period." FIFA cannot place all of the emphasis on the Referee to catch all dives, it's extremly difficult to spot some dives and at high speeds from even minimal distances a Ref can be tricked. To say the Referee must catch the dive on the spot or it's ok -- is folly. I wonder how many of those people have ever had the try and spot simulation in an international match...

Get rid of diving, let the video review in. Sometimes draconian measures are indeed needed. If that eliminates some of the diving, it will help the Referee's do their job! PLUS It will improve the game for its own sake -- and it will be more enjoyable to the players and fans.

Totally agree with one exception. I'd punish diving without regard to whether the dive "had some kind of significant impact on the match." If you dive and the ref misses it, then punish retroactively. To me, this is no different than using video review to punish physical violence. I also like Wreave's suggestion of having the match referee make the final call on whether or not to retrospectively punish a dive. That way, there's not someone second guessing the ref's decision and it's clear that any punishable conduct was simply missed. But, absolutely never go back and alter the game's outcome for a missed dive. It might not be ideally fair, but the only consistent alternative is review of every call and then no game would ever be finished; it would be totally unworkable.

One more thing: I'd give red cards for diving. Right now the reward for a successful dive (a PK) totally outweighs the punishment (a yellow card). There is very little disincentive for a player not to dive near the end of a close game.

[the101er]

In the Tottenham game on Saturday, the ball obviously came off a defender for a corner kick, but a goal kick was given. Do we retroactively punish that defender for not fessing up?

Referees miss calls. Diving is only an issue, only in England, only because the English have deluded themselves into believing only foreigners do it.

And don't listen to commentators, they claim every time certain players fall down it's a dive. In general, the more skilled a player is, the more he gets fouled and the more he goes down. So, perhaps the English have a point. ;)

If only we could hand out retroactive yellow cards for every goal Alan Shearer scored in his career by fouling a defender to get to the ball....

[Wreave]

In the Tottenham game on Saturday, the ball obviously came off a defender for a corner kick, but a goal kick was given. Do we retroactively punish that defender for not fessing up?

Obviously not, and not relevant to the question. Even if a player tells me that they made the last touch, or if a defender tells me a restart should be a corner kick instead of a goal kick, I always stick with the call made by the ref team:

1. Refs do make mistakes, and can make them on last touch for balls out of play as well as anything else. I need my mistakes to even out, so if I have one team or one player correcting me then my mistakes get skewed.

2. The player, even if wholly truthful, may expect different treatment later in the game if I defer to his judgement over mine. As an extreme example, what if later in the game, his team is down by one and he is challenging for another ball that goes out over the goal line. He says, "goal kick, ref." Do I believe him? If I've set the standard that I trust his judgement, then I make life difficult for myself in such a situation. However, if I've set the standard that the referees make the calls, regardless of player input, then I can safely make either a goal kick or corner kick call on that play without getting (well deserved) flack from the other team.

[Sagy]

In the Tottenham game on Saturday, the ball obviously came off a defender for a corner kick, but a goal kick was given. Do we retroactively punish that defender for not fessing up? I think that you are missing the point. When a player dives he cheats and attempts to deceive the ref. In your case the defender didn't cheat nor did his action ("letting" the ball come off him) was done for the purpose of deceiving the ref. Referee mistakes are part of the game, we cal all live with them, we can even accept stretching the rules, but cheating and purposefully attempting to deceive the ref should not be tolerated regardless of if it was initially successful or not.

I think that Wreave suggestion of the ref making the final call after reviewing the tape should be acceptable to everyone. I also think that it is reasonable to put some time limit (the review by the CR must take place in 24/48 hours).

A somewhat controversial suggestion might be to make the punishment for a successful dive (discovered during the review) twice as heavy as for one the CR identified on the field (this might encourage the diver to admit the crime before it has any irreversible consequences).

[NHRef]

But what do you do, if anything, in the case of a "post game discovered dive" that resulted in a PK in the game which scored the game winning goal? The cheat affected the game, you can't really go back and undo it and take the goal away, and would a "replay" be right? Decisions on the field by the ref are suppose to be final. In this case admitting the guy cheated, got away with it, it effected the game, then you punish him after the fact would lead to people demanding the game be replayed.

[USSF REF]

I think the decision on the field has got to stand as far as the result of the game is concerned. That doesn't mean we can' suspend a player found to be diving, I don't see the issue with that. Sanction the players with games and money afterwards and you might see the incidence of diving reduced dramatically, which is the goal here. AND that could all be done without changing the results of a match.

[bluedevils]

If this is really such a big concern that folks, including FIFA, might entertain the idea of replaying a match or altering the result... well, then FIFA should be considering other major changes such as adding more officials on the field, goal judges, diving specialists, etc etc etc.

I don't think they should do that.

My point is, if they want to stick with the 3-man system of officiating soccer matches then they need to accept the limitations inherent in 3 people monitoring 22 players plus benches and approximately 10,000 square yards of field area. It's a lot to keep track of and mistakes, even critical mistakes that affect outcomes of matches, happen.

Bottom line for me is pretty similar to what USSF REF said: the results of matches should not be changed based on info learned post-match.

[bluedevils]

In this case admitting the guy cheated, got away with it, it [a]ffected the game, then you punish him after the fact would lead to people demanding the game be replayed.

So what if they demand the game be replayed? Rules is rules. If the game is not going to be replayed, does it really matter if people complain about it?

[NHRef]

So what if they demand the game be replayed? Rules is rules. If the game is not going to be replayed, does it really matter if people complain about it?

Depends. If you are changing the rules to catch people who cheat after the game, then this opens up the discussion of what to do when the "cheat" causes the game results to change? If you are acknowledging he cheated then you have to at least discuss how to handle the above change. Say the final of the world cup is 1-0, this GREATLY effects the players and teams from both financial and "bragging" rights/glory. Now you discover that the goal was on a PK that was incorrectly awarded due to a dive by an attacker. So, the PK should NOT have occurred, so that game should not be 1-0.

Now what? The discovery of the cheat has caused some to win and some to loose a large amount of money and fame. Not fair, so they WILL complain.

Not saying that IF they do this games will need to be replayed, but can you imagine the ramifications, especially in the press, that a cheat who was caught/suspended/fined/whatever, is the result of a team winning? It will be public outrage

Soccer has always been about the ref has final say, this changes that, so it opens up other issues. We have already seen cases of a technical mistake by the ref forcing a replay. How different is this?

[bluedevils]

Soccer has always been about the ref has final say, this changes that, so it opens up other issues. We have already seen cases of a technical mistake by the ref forcing a replay. How different is this?

It is different. How much? That is hard to say.

As long as the game is in the hands of human beings, mistakes are going to happen. It might be hard for people to accept when something is done wrong such as a PK awarded on a dive. Is it, or should it be, any harder for them to accept when the competition authority acknowledges the player's dishonesty and punishes it post-match? I don't necessarily think so. People are already making up their own minds about whether somebody cheated and it affected the match result, based on TV replays etc. How much more heat is added when the competition authority comes out and admits something that everybody already knows?

[USSF REF]

Soccer has always been about the ref has final say, this changes that, so it opens up other issues. We have already seen cases of a technical mistake by the ref forcing a replay. How different is this?

If that is what soccer has always been about, then why do most leagues have an appeals proceedure? Even more so, why does FIFA allow for misconduct not seen by the referee to be sanctioned after the match? What is the practical difference between a referee who fails to identify a dive and a referee who fails to see a player being struck off the ball and out of his view?

In both cases the referee is failing to act correctly because they mistakenly perceived or failed to see an action on the field. So why is it ok to issue up sanctions in one case and not the other? Additionally, when they sanction players after the match for things like missed violent conduct, in theory that player could be sent off, or even a penalty could be given. Yet, in those cases no one complains they should be given a new game even though a player sent-off could affect the outcome of the match.

So why not review diving and punish it later -- I fail to see the difference and I don't see how it can be a bad thing. It will be understood, up front, that those sanctions issued will NOT affect the outcome of the match.