Germany's biggest rivalry?

[smithfan]

typical Dutch..stealing words from Germans:)

wow it would be celebrity..to beat England first and then kick off Holland:)
WOW

and the best thing is that I just got tickets for round of 16 Winner A - Runner-up B

So that could mean I will see GERMANY VS. ENGLAND live in Munich :D

[Gregoriak]

Aaaaah, the superiority complex..... Where have I seen that before?? :eek:

Probably in your nickname?

[Gregoriak]

I just did some research into the Italy vs Germany matches at the world cups.

No. of trophies in the cabinet, Germany is clearly ahead of Italy.

But Germany has yet to beat Italy in a World or Euro cup.


Against Italy
1962 0-0
1970 3-4
1978 0-0
1982 1-3

So, here Italy have 2 wins and 2 draws. and goal difference favouring them 7-4

European Championships
1988 1-1
1996 0-0

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duiitares.html

This is a good reference site.
So from a football only point of view, this rivalry should be more competitive for Germany than rivalry against the 'we never win anything' Dutch or the ' only 1966' England.

It is somewhat strange that there is no real rivalry between Germany and Italy. The 1970 and the 1982 World Cup encounters could have sparked it, but for some reason it never really happened, at least not on the same scale as the England and Holland rivalries.

The interesting thing about Italy is that in this case, Germany is the underdog. Holland and England are the two teams that suffered more from Germany than the other way round, so them feeling a intense rivalry is understandable, Germany on the other hand only has one team that made them suffer regularly (or that at least seems unbeatable in important games) and that is Italy. Surprisingly, no hard feelings from the German side towards the Italians.

[poorvi]

It is somewhat strange that there is no real rivalry between Germany and Italy. The 1970 and the 1982 World Cup encounters could have sparked it, but for some reason it never really happened, at least not on the same scale as the England and Holland rivalries.

The interesting thing about Italy is that in this case, Germany is the underdog. Holland and England are the two teams that suffered more from Germany than the other way round, so them feeling a intense rivalry is understandable, Germany on the other hand only has one team that made them suffer regularly (or that at least seems unbeatable in important games) and that is Italy. Surprisingly, no hard feelings from the German side towards the Italians.

Thats what struck me as suprising. Lack of any sort of rivalry between any 3 of the top teams of world football. No Brazil Italy, or Brazil Germany or Italy Germany rivalry.

The 1970 game, i have only read about, so my comments on that would not qualify. But in 1982 final, which I have seen on DVD, the Italians were the by far the stronger side.So a German loss did not suprise anybody in Germany and therefore no rivalry, but a German win would lead the 82 world cup to be called Miracle of Sevilla/Madrid or where ever the final was played. The teams they had disposed to get to the finals all were tough sides too. The games in which Germany beat the English or Holland in any of the world/euro cups, were games which were more balanced and very close and so the losing team would always attribute the loss to luck.The Dutch or English fans so considered the loss as a loss against a team they could have beaten. This could be a factor.

[Gregoriak]

Thats what struck me as suprising. Lack of any sort of rivalry between any 3 of the top teams of world football. No Brazil Italy, or Brazil Germany or Italy Germany rivalry.

The 1970 game, i have only read about, so my comments on that would not qualify. But in 1982 final, which I have seen on DVD, the Italians were the by far the stronger side.So a German loss did not suprise anybody in Germany and therefore no rivalry, but a German win would lead the 82 world cup to be called Miracle of Sevilla/Madrid or where ever the final was played. The teams they had disposed to get to the finals all were tough sides too. The games in which Germany beat the English or Holland in any of the world/euro cups, were games which were more balanced and very close and so the losing team would always attribute the loss to luck.The Dutch or English fans so considered the loss as a loss against a team they could have beaten. This could be a factor.


I really think that is a factor. Germany suffered two painful defeats at the hands of Italy, but that is still not in the same league as the pain the English had to suffer in various tournaments (1970, 1972, 1990, 1996). Another important factor I think is that Germany's trophy haul was still impressive despite these two painful losses vs. Italy. To the English, meeting Germany for 26 years was equal to getting kicked out of the tournament. They didn't win anything else which could have compensated so the pain was way more intense. The Germans can always look at their three World Cups and three Euro Cups for compensation.

The 1982 final was indeed very unbalanced. One of the reasons for that may be that West Germany had to play a very exhausting semi final vs. France while Italy eased thru to the final with a 2-0 semi final win over Poland. Both games were played on the same day, but Germany's was played later (due to extensive heat in Sevilla). Paul Breitner described in his World Cup book how the German team after the match vs. France had to wait for hours at the Seville airport. The plane was there but they were just not allowed to enter it and it was very frustrating to the team. By 3:00 in the night they finally were allowed to fly back to their quarter. Breitner said that this was quite a negative factor to him and his teammates as the time for the final was short (three days) and every minute was important in order to recover physically in time. Just wanted to add that. It explains a bit why Germany underperformed that much in the final.

[arthur d]

I heard a different version of this story. In fact, quite the opposite version. My mother's father (who was an officer) travelled illegally through half of Germany into the British zone after the war ended as he expected to be treated better by the Brits. And he didn't regret this, he held them in high regard and only said positive things about their behaviour after the war. In particular, he admired their correctness and fairness. I guess it really depends on who you ask.

My father was a child in the American zone, and he only said positive things about the Americans as well (mostly to do with chewing gum). His father had resisted the nazis so they were in quite a good position anyway.

Both agreed that being in the French and Russian zones was not so great. That's also not so surprising, given that France and Russia were more directly affected.

US yes, England no. The English army officers behaved like arrogant pricks (well, they were) in the years after the war. My father knows lots of stories (he was a boy back then) about arrogant English behaviour with regards to the German population. And not only the older Germans, the younger kids were treated like crap by them as well. Totally different to the Americans, who were really liked by everyone (by and large). For example, in the English zone, for some years in school, it was ordered by the English command that no German music was allowed to be played (Beethoven etc.), but only English composers like Benjamin Britten, and every German man had to take of his hat when he passed an English soldier. You didn't get that kind of stuff from the US Army.

Just to put it into perspective. In the above post it sounded as if Americans and the English were by and large the same kind of people - they weren't!

[arthur d]

I wonder if there is a historical basis for this as well. Throughout the years, we uncivilised Germans have always looked up at Italy to a certain extent. German Kings went to Italy, sometimes to stay there (Heinrich VI, Friedrich II), Goethe admired Italy ('kennst du das Land, wo die Zitronen bluehn...'). This is of course long ago, but I still think this admiration hasn't entirely disappeared, at least subconsciously.


I really think that is a factor. Germany suffered two painful defeats at the hands of Italy, but that is still not in the same league as the pain the English had to suffer in various tournaments (1970, 1972, 1990, 1996). Another important factor I think is that Germany's trophy haul was still impressive despite these two painful losses vs. Italy. To the English, meeting Germany for 26 years was equal to getting kicked out of the tournament. They didn't win anything else which could have compensated so the pain was way more intense. The Germans can always look at their three World Cups and three Euro Cups for compensation.

The 1982 final was indeed very unbalanced. One of the reasons for that may be that West Germany had to play a very exhausting semi final vs. France while Italy eased thru to the final with a 2-0 semi final win over Poland. Both games were played on the same day, but Germany's was played later (due to extensive heat in Sevilla). Paul Breitner described in his World Cup book how the German team after the match vs. France had to wait for hours at the Seville airport. The plane was there but they were just not allowed to enter it and it was very frustrating to the team. By 3:00 in the night they finally were allowed to fly back to their quarter. Breitner said that this was quite a negative factor to him and his teammates as the time for the final was short (three days) and every minute was important in order to recover physically in time. Just wanted to add that. It explains a bit why Germany underperformed that much in the final.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

Slavery was a bitch, too. As was the Inquesition. Burning witches at the stake wasn't very nice, and I suppose chucking virgins into volcanos was a bit anti-social, as well.

The point is that one person hating another person for the transgressions of that person's ancestors against his own is counterproductive and unfair.

It is especially unfair in the case of the Germans, who have done more than any other people in, well, the history of the world, to repent of the sins of their forefathers.

Thankfully, the vast majority of Dutch people do not feel the same way you do.
Those are all things that happened hundreds of years ago. As a man of Jewish blood, I can unequivocally state that apologies won't smooth over those cracks. I don't mind Germany - My grandfather came back from Normandy alive - but you're frankly kidding yourself that people whose grandparents starved to death in the Dutch winter (or in the concentration camps) are completely irrational to hold ill feelings against the Germans. American Indians and Black Americans still have a sense of ill feeling towards the US government for the Indian resettlements and murders, slavery, etc. Slavery ended 140 years ago. The Greeks still hate the Turks. Do you think the Dutch will really be any different?

The tremendous football on the pitch is as much a reason for the animosity as history now, but the 1974 team badly felt that urge to humiliate the Germans, and it probably cost them the game.

[96Squig]

The Germans weren't worse to the Dutch than to the French, Polish or Russians though, and you don't get as much hard words from them (leave alone having a soccer rivalry).

[stefan10]

Germany in it's current form will not upset the world from my POV.

And yes, at least I will, laughing at Germany :D

With sports in general, not in real life no....

Perhabs but the good thing to be a german football or sport fan is that we always can say look at the statisitcs.

When dutch english or others say that they had or have the better teams we can be very relaxed and answer that you guys would give anything to have our record at the WC or the EuroC.

Most of the times when your players enjoy their free time because they were not able to shoot a penalty or to show a constant good performance it was germany that reached the final.

by the way do you remember the women Hockey final at the olympic games. The dutch team were better and the best team of the games but germany won the gold medaille. We are always hard to beat and also our football national team will at least show the german Tugenden with a very good figthing spirit.
As a foreigner i do not know if i would want to play against germany even with a better team.

[West 'am 'till I die]

I want to know whom the Germans and German fans consider as their biggest rivals on the football field.

I know that the Dutch and the English consider the DFB elf as their biggest rivals. But when it comes to achievements and winning competitions, these two teams are not even closely competitive.
Maybe Brazil or Italy?


England's biggest rival is Argentina in my opinion

[West 'am 'till I die]

Holland, Holland, followed by Holland.

I don't think the Germans really care one way or another about England. As ohk says, most Germans like, or at least respect, English soccer, and I actually think most Germans have a lot of respect for England in general. That rivalry is mostly one way. You'll see Germans wearing England shirts, and half of Germany will wear Brazil (as Fräulein96 says) and Italy shirts. You will never see an Englishman wear a Germany shirt.

As for Argentina, England has a much larger rivalry with them than Germany does.

England has a rivalry with every1 (it's part of our footballing culture to create a false hatred of the oposition) realistically Millwall is alright but football-wise West Ham hate them. I think other country's fail to understand this (except Australia who put up a good fight and then share a beer afterwards)

I have nothin against Germany and even have a Germany shirt from Italia '90

[West 'am 'till I die]

In my opinion I still think that England and Holland are Germany's biggest rivals. The reason this is, is because the English and Dutch have no respect for Germany. Their still bitter about the war. They view football games vs. Germany as their Holy Wars, even though history has shown they rarely prevail against Germany. What's funny is most Germans respect England and are fond of England, but the feeling is not mutual. The English have an obsession with Germany, there the ones that drive this rivalary. They would rather beat us than anyone. Someone said why arn't Argentina and Italy rivals of Germany? Because there is mutual respect. I always here the NT's of Argentina and Italy say how "Alemania" and "Germania" are always a force to be reckoned with. As for who I say should be our rivals, that is a simple question Brazil. I hate Brazil probably because they always beat us. I would sell my soul to see Germany triumph over the Samba Boys. The reason this rivalary could be great is because we are the most successful footballing nations ever. One more point I want to make is it is, your not a knowledgable football fan if you are German wearing an England jersey, you would never see a Englishman wear DFB apparel. Why wear the jersey of a people who hate us? Wearing a Brazil jersey is silly, their just bandwagon fans who support Brazil because of its 5 World titles and legacy of success. What trendy folks!
P.S. Shawn "Puffy" Combs only wore the DFB track jacket at the NBA All-Star game to be fashionable. He knows nothing about Football. I wouldn't be proud of this. It makes me not want to wear this jacket which is a shame because I am a true fan, not a superficial fake


A German in California talking utter rubbish..... Oi KLINSMANN get ur ass back to Europe and do your job properly!! Seriously though, ask any English man his favourite foreign player to play in the EPL and most will say Jurgen!!!

[david29]

Seriously though, ask any English man his favourite foreign player to play in the EPL and most will say Jurgen!!!

More so than Zola?

[bltleo]

England has a rivalry with every1 (it's part of our footballing culture to create a false hatred of the oposition) realistically Millwall is alright but football-wise West Ham hate them. I think other country's fail to understand this (except Australia who put up a good fight and then share a beer afterwards)

I have nothin against Germany and even have a Germany shirt from Italia '90

you are very nice Englishman wearing Germany jersey. Thanks:)
I have also nothing against England and english soccer. In the opposite I like your premier league. As I mentioned the only "real rival" of us is maybe Holland:)

What about USA? Is that your rival? Just curious.

See you in Germany!:)

bltleo

[PsychedelicCeltic]

The Germans weren't worse to the Dutch than to the French, Polish or Russians though, and you don't get as much hard words from them (leave alone having a soccer rivalry).
Remember that time the Polish blockaded the Dutch ports so Dutch people had to eat tulip bulbs for a whole winter? Yeah, me neither.

In the words of Dave Chappelle, "You tried to kill my father, man". And that's why some people are going to harbour resentment against the Germans.

[meininki]

My father was a child in the American zone, and he only said positive things about the Americans as well (mostly to do with chewing gum).

:) My mother seems to have quite similar memories. When she was little (she was born in 1951), the American soldiers used to give the kids chocolate and chewing gum and she says they sometimes ran after their cars shouting "Chewing Gum! Chewing Gum!". Once she even got a doll. :)
I grew up right next to the border to the GDR and we often saw American soldiers. Once (I think I was about 7 or 8) they let us have a look into their tank and they let us listen to their walkmans. It's sort of weird to think I spent about 10 years of my life in an occupied country...

[PsychedelicCeltic]

you are very nice Englishman wearing Germany jersey. Thanks:)
I have also nothing against England and english soccer. In the opposite I like your premier league. As I mentioned the only "real rival" of us is maybe Holland:)

What about USA? Is that your rival? Just curious.

See you in Germany!:)

bltleo
Mexico.

[West 'am 'till I die]

More so than Zola?


Yea u are right

[West 'am 'till I die]

you are very nice Englishman wearing Germany jersey. Thanks:)
I have also nothing against England and english soccer. In the opposite I like your premier league. As I mentioned the only "real rival" of us is maybe Holland:)

What about USA? Is that your rival? Just curious.

See you in Germany!:)

bltleo



Oh mate don't get me started with USA.... for their pure IGNORANCE my main rival is USA