Germany's biggest rivalry?

[bltleo]

I wasn't saying that the US is a rival. I was addressing the fact that some people, because of the war, may still hate some countries/teams. The US has one rival at the moment... Mexico.

I understand now..

yes I know about Mexico and USA..:)

similar Germany-Holland:)

[snoooop]

Imagine IF Holland wins it in Germany come summer.......


Italy will win :)

they have a squad like germany had it at the WC 1990 in Italy :)

[arthur d]

Well as much as I would like to think the world has moved on, I don't think you can just say it's a bad reason. Though I agree with the "let's move on folks" sentiment. I still know some older generation people who refuse to buy Japanese products to this day. In Europe you still have the a couple generations of people who either lost a father, mother, relatives, etc.... I would even expect some Germans to hate Americans and the English for the bombing raids. Who knows?

What I find interesting, is that the "war reasons" mostly come from Holland and England and not from places like Poland and Russia. Maybe I just haven't seen it???? Someone enlighten me on that if that is not true.


I think you'd have to look very hard to find a German who hates the English or Americans for the bombings. Then again, there are crazy people in very country.

I can only really talk about my personal experiences. Like I said, I haven't found anybody in the UK who hates Germans because of the war. I had a few conversations with grandfathers of English friends of mine, but although they actually fought against the nazis and lost family in the war, the general attitude seemed to be more 'there was a war, there were bound to be casualties.' Almost as if the war was a sporting event of some kind. One of the old Englishmen I talked with even admired the Germans for 'fighting well'. Kind of fits with the 'two World Wars and one World Cup' theme. Young British people just make fun of Germans for their lack of humour and style, and their sometimes overly loud and arrogant behaviour.

It's different in Holland, there the war is still much more of a grudge issue, but in terms of the football rivalry it's just being used rather than being the reason now. It's just a nice little addition, if you can take the piss out of your opponent by wearing Nazi helmets and sing about bicycles. The football rivalry is more about 1974 etc.

When I travelled around Poland I still felt quite some resentment from old people. All young Poles were extremely friendly though, and for them the number one enemy seemed to be Russia really.

I have never felt any resentment from Russians though, and my friends and family who spent a lot of time in Russia said the same, and were surprised about this. Maybe to do with all the other terrible events in Russian history.

These are just my impressions.

[smithfan]

biggest rivalry?

For me personally, it's England. But most Germans probaby prefer the "enemy" Holland. But it's just a football rivalry anyway. :D

[Dead Fingers]

I think you'd have to look very hard to find a German who hates the English or Americans for the bombings. Then again, there are crazy people in very country.

Yeah...I didn't think there were, but...you never know. And that's what i w trying to get at.


It's different in Holland, there the war is still much more of a grudge issue, but in terms of the football rivalry it's just being used rather than being the reason now. It's just a nice little addition, if you can take the piss out of your opponent by wearing Nazi helmets and sing about bicycles. The football rivalry is more about 1974 etc.
When I travelled around Poland I still felt quite some resentment from old people. All young Poles were extremely friendly though, and for them the number one enemy seemed to be Russia really.
I have never felt any resentment from Russians though, and my friends and family who spent a lot of time in Russia said the same, and were surprised about this. Maybe to do with all the other terrible events in Russian history.

These are just my impressions.

Now..not to stir up any trouble here, because I would really like to understand. Why the Dutch...and not the Russians and/or Poles? They probably have a "bigger case" to be made than the Dutch for a war grudge.
Yeah, I think I agree arthur, about 74 being the real issue. Though they lost to a great team. hell, you would think they would be going ape-shit over what happened in 78. After reading Kuper's book Football Against the Enemy, it really is about 74 and the war is just added on.

[AGF Aarhus]

Now..not to stir up any trouble here, because I would really like to understand. Why the Dutch...and not the Russians and/or Poles? They probably have a "bigger case" to be made than the Dutch for a war grudge.
I think the whole point is that it isn't logical and has nothing to do with anyone having a 'big case' or not.

If I want to give you a hard time, I will find any way to do it, whether it makes sense or not.

Young British people just make fun of Germans ... and their sometimes overly loud and arrogant behaviour.
Kettle, meet Pot, Pot meet Kettle. Have you ever seen Young British people on holiday? Hell, forget 'on holiday', have you ever seen Young British people in Britain?

When I travelled around Poland I still felt quite some resentment from old people. All young Poles were extremely friendly though, and for them the number one enemy seemed to be Russia really.
I've had a great time in Poland. It seems to be the one country where Reagan is actualy popular. I went there with my German girlfriend, and when I spoke English everyone was our best friend. When she spoke German, well, they weren't anymore.

[Dead Fingers]

I think the whole point is that it isn't logical and has nothing to do with anyone having a 'big case' or not.

If I want to give you a hard time, I will find any way to do it, whether it makes sense or not.



yep..sounds about right.

[Three Rivers]

Well as much as I would like to think the world has moved on, I don't think you can just say it's a bad reason. Though I agree with the "let's move on folks" sentiment. I still know some older generation people who refuse to buy Japanese products to this day. In Europe you still have the a couple generations of people who either lost a father, mother, relatives, etc.... I would even expect some Germans to hate Americans and the English for the bombing raids. Who knows?

What I find interesting, is that the "war reasons" mostly come from Holland and England and not from places like Poland and Russia. Maybe I just haven't seen it???? Someone enlighten me on that if that is not true.

I have many friends in Germany who love, love, love the USA and England. Especially the older folks who lived through the war and saw their country ruined and then raised back up to be an economic giant.

One friend spent two years as a prisoner of war in Louisiana. Said it was, up till that time, the best years of his life.

Another friend who is a real Anglophile. Spends many vacations in England.

Both are very passionate German football supporters who have very little hate in their hearts.

[Dead Fingers]

I have many friends in Germany who love, love, love the USA and England. Especially the older folks who lived through the war and saw their country ruined and then raised back up to be an economic giant.

One friend spent two years as a prisoner of war in Louisiana. Said it was, up till that time, the best years of his life.

Another friend who is a real Anglophile. Spends many vacations in England.

Both are very passionate German football supporters who have very little hate in their hearts.

Yeah, I would assume that is true...in the context of what was being said, that the use of World War 2 as a reason of hating a team is absurd, I was playing devils advocate. The Germans and Americans have had pretty good relations for the last 50 years...and I wasn't dissagreeing with that. I was just suggesting that some people, whether in small or large numbers, German, American, English, Dutch, Polish, French, Russian, etc...might have a reason associated with the war that they use in the context of a soccer match.

Make sense??

[Three Rivers]

It does!

[poorvi]

I just did some research into the Italy vs Germany matches at the world cups.

No. of trophies in the cabinet, Germany is clearly ahead of Italy.

But Germany has yet to beat Italy in a World or Euro cup.


Against Italy
1962 0-0
1970 3-4
1978 0-0
1982 1-3

So, here Italy have 2 wins and 2 draws. and goal difference favouring them 7-4

European Championships
1988 1-1
1996 0-0

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duiitares.html

This is a good reference site.
So from a football only point of view, this rivalry should be more competitive for Germany than rivalry against the 'we never win anything' Dutch or the ' only 1966' England.

[prymetyme]

Personaly I'll always hate England, Holland, Argentina, Brazil ( I just have a grudge against them).

England is explainable. Holland like SirManc said it a while back there grudge is based of a war from 60 years ago when the kids playing now never experienced it and a lot of the next wave will only know a unified Germany. Its silly for that to be the reason to hate us.

Argentina, there just scum. Maradona explains it all.

Brazil- 2002.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

Holland like SirManc said it a while back there grudge is based of a war from 60 years ago when the kids playing now never experienced it and a lot of the next wave will only know a unified Germany.

That's pretty naive.

[prymetyme]

How is it naive. Take Podolski. He's a young German player. He's about 20. If he is 20 (I think he is) he was born in 1986. Germany was re-unified in 1990. He cant remember that let alone remember the war.

A lot of the Dutch people I know still have a grudge against the Germans for WW2. Honestly it is hard for them not to (especially the older ones) and I can see why they would. Horrible crimes were comitted and nobody excpects them to forget about that but, this is football and these are not the people nor have any connection to the people that caused the harm to the Dutch.

There is obviously a rivalry and maybe it is just the few dutch i have talked to, maybe they dont have a good reason for the rivavly because theyve grown up with it. But its certainly not a naive concept.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

Rotterdam was firebombed. The Dutch Hunger of 1944. The deportation of Jews.

These are things people do not forget with time. I'm playing the world's smallest violin for the Germans who are sad that some people out there hate them.

[Dutch_Master]

I just did some research into the Italy vs Germany matches at the world cups.

No. of trophies in the cabinet, Germany is clearly ahead of Italy.

But Germany has yet to beat Italy in a World or Euro cup.


Against Italy
1962 0-0
1970 3-4
1978 0-0
1982 1-3

So, here Italy have 2 wins and 2 draws. and goal difference favouring them 7-4

European Championships
1988 1-1
1996 0-0

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duiitares.html

This is a good reference site.
So from a football only point of view, this rivalry should be more competitive for Germany than rivalry against the 'we never win anything' Dutch or the ' only 1966' England.

And what has India EVER done?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[AGF Aarhus]

Rotterdam was firebombed. The Dutch Hunger of 1944. The deportation of Jews.

These are things people do not forget with time. I'm playing the world's smallest violin for the Germans who are sad that some people out there hate them.
Slavery was a bitch, too. As was the Inquesition. Burning witches at the stake wasn't very nice, and I suppose chucking virgins into volcanos was a bit anti-social, as well.

The point is that one person hating another person for the transgressions of that person's ancestors against his own is counterproductive and unfair.

It is especially unfair in the case of the Germans, who have done more than any other people in, well, the history of the world, to repent of the sins of their forefathers.

Thankfully, the vast majority of Dutch people do not feel the same way you do.

[poorvi]

And what has India EVER done?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


India has won a world cup in the only sport that is truly followed here (cricket). Can't say the same about the Dutch.

But I don't understand your point of view. No one here claimed that India is the biggest rival Germany should have. If achievements are the criteria to go by, Italy should be a better team to have a sporting rivalry against, rather than Holland.

[stefan10]

India has won a world cup in the only sport that is truly followed here (cricket). Can't say the same about the Dutch.

But I don't understand your point of view. No one here claimed that India is the biggest rival Germany should have. If achievements are the criteria to go by, Italy should be a better team to have a sporting rivalry against, rather than Holland.

The question is why such a rivalry exists and why does it still goes on.

The rivalry with the netherlands has in my opinion several reasons.

In terms of football it is the final 1974 where the dutch still belive that they had the better team and it is still a big issue and problem for holland.

Other things are the history and the fact that germany is the big neighbour and for a small and unimportant country like the netherlands it is a great thing to beat the big neighbour in the east.


In terms of england you can also find the english obsesion with germany and the war but also reasons within the football history.
After the win in 1966 against germany we had been their nightmare in the last decades. it started with the 1/4 1970 then the european championships 1972 WC 1990 and finaly the Euro 1996. They had to see 5 WC and 5 Euro finals with a german team after their one and only final in the complete football history. it is not easy for the nation that creats that sport and where so many people are really true fans. i guess looking at my experiances the english people are even more insane in terms of football than the germans.

perhabs there is no rivalry with italy because it needs also a myth like the lost final in 1974 and people who are willing to create these emotions.
There was a unbelivable great match against italy at the world cup 1970 but it was only a great match nothing more.

[Dutch_Master]

India has won a world cup in the only sport that is truly followed here (cricket). Can't say the same about the Dutch.

But I don't understand your point of view. No one here claimed that India is the biggest rival Germany should have. If achievements are the criteria to go by, Italy should be a better team to have a sporting rivalry against, rather than Holland.

Cricket is only popular in a couple of countries (mostly the UK and their former colonies if I'm correct). We're world champions in such a sport as well (field hockey, which is more popular around the globe than cricket I believe). So what? It's nice and all and good achievements by those teams but the only sport that really matters in most countries is football!

I'm not talking about that, you are talking about "never win anything" Holland and "only 1966" England, that's what my comment is about....
For me a rivalry isn't measured by achievements, for most people it isn't I guess. It's a history thing... Maybe you can compare it with the India/Pakistan story?
If measured by results then yes, Italy or Brasil but it simply isn't... The Italians nor the Brazilians don't give a flyin' ******** about Germany. True rivalries are Holland/Germany, England/Scotland, England/Argentina, Argentina/Brasil, etc.