Were we really humiliated?

[Euroboy]

I was upset to see our team losing to Australia yestarday. I woke up this morning and I did not want to eat breakfast. I was so upset. We should get a new coach. I just cannot believe this. We were humiliated by these rookies. See this link to see what they wrote about us:

http://www.soccer365.com/EUROPEAN_NEWS/Rest_of_Europe/page_109_46475.shtml

[Bizzo]

Originally posted by Euroboy
We should get a new coach. I just cannot believe this.

So who's this new coach you want??

[Femfa]

You sound pretty upset and humiliated - so I'm not sure if you haven't just answered your own question.

Australia and their fans, though famous world over for being pretty good sports, are having a fun time reveling in this victory.

Granted, if your question was, "Should we really feel humiliated about a friendly in which Sven not only tinkered with the line-up, but switched it wholesale for half the game?" that's a different question.

The answer - well, I leave it to those who are in fact English.

[Turk from Pigs Eye]

This sort of upset happens a lot at this stage of the four year cycle of the World Cup. The USA has beaten Germany, Argentina, and Brazil at this stage in the past.

Just remember that England passed out of the group of death just a few months ago and Argentina didn't.

[Femfa]

Although I can't resist. . .

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/sport/0,5971,Sport^^TEXT^dailytelegraph,00.html

The cartoon is especially cute.

[Moderator's Edit: I fixed the link. -JoBeck]

[Tony Ebola]

http://www.tgcom.it/tgcomimages/original/ArticoloTgCom107059immagine9.jpg

[Prenn]

Originally posted by Femfa
Although I can't resist. . .

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/sport/0,5971,Sport^^TEXT^dailytelegraph,00.html

The cartoon is especially cute.

[Moderator's Edit: I fixed the link. -JoBeck]

The cartoon is especially inaccurate.

They need to beat Wales and Northern Ireland before it's right ;)

[RichardL]

Perhaps humiliation is the wrong word. I think even before the game most people accepted that Australia, while no better than average, were not a team England were expected to beat with ease. I think it's been the manner of the defeat, rather than defeat itself, which is harder to accept. English teams, even when derided for being all long ball and lacking in finesse, were admired for their "never say die attitude". Their determination to never give up. Anyone who remembers Terry Butcher playing most of a qualifying match in Sweden(?) with a cut on his head so bad that his white shirt turned red with his splattered blood knows what I mean.
http://soccernet.com/england/news/2001/0220/20010220engbutcher.html
(yes, that was originally a white bandage)
The worrying thing was that unlike, say, the defeat to the US in 1993, this wasn't some pointless end of season friendly with tired & weary players going through the motions a long way from home, this happened at home in front of fans who turned out to support the team. If you were to say "never say die" to many of the current team, they'd probably think it was the slogan for a new hair-care product.

[Bizzo]

Originally posted by RichardL
The worrying thing was that unlike, say, the defeat to the US in 1993, this wasn't some pointless end of season friendly with tired & weary players going through the motions a long way from home, this happened at home in front of fans who turned out to support the team. If you were to say "never say die" to many of the current team, they'd probably think it was the slogan for a new hair-care product.

I agree, but players are constantly being told by the media, their managers, (some) fans that all friendlies are meaningless and when the England manager is forced to change his side after 45 minutes that attitude is reinforced. The Premiership managers have too much power now. Remember it was only a few years ago that England played 'B' internationals the day before the real game. If we continue along this path all England friendlies will disappear.

[Prenn]

Originally posted by RichardL
Perhaps humiliation is the wrong word. I think even before the game most people accepted that Australia, while no better than average, were not a team England were expected to beat with ease. I think it's been the manner of the defeat, rather than defeat itself, which is harder to accept. English teams, even when derided for being all long ball and lacking in finesse, were admired for their "never say die attitude". Their determination to never give up. Anyone who remembers Terry Butcher playing most of a qualifying match in Sweden(?) with a cut on his head so bad that his white shirt turned red with his splattered blood knows what I mean.
http://soccernet.com/england/news/2001/0220/20010220engbutcher.html
(yes, that was originally a white bandage)
The worrying thing was that unlike, say, the defeat to the US in 1993, this wasn't some pointless end of season friendly with tired & weary players going through the motions a long way from home, this happened at home in front of fans who turned out to support the team. If you were to say "never say die" to many of the current team, they'd probably think it was the slogan for a new hair-care product.

I think that's exactly the problem, it's the manner of the defeat rather than the defeat itself.

I've found myself becoming more and more frustrated over the past day or so. I now firmly belive that friendlies should be taken very seriously, ************ the big clubs. The national team is a source of national pride and it's purely the selfish interest of the non-English managers of the 'big 3' who are ************ing up our national team. The fans of those clubs can complain all they want but I'll bet you every single one of them is behind England when it comes down to it. You can't expect the England team to play no friendlies then compete when it comes to a competetive game, it just isn't going to happen. How the big clubs can complain about 2 games in six months I'll never know, they're like spoilt little brats. Don't like players going away on international duty? Don't ************ing sign them! And it's not like they're going half way round the world this one was in London for christ sake.

What also bothers me is that this performance is not a one off just because it's a friendly. Look at the dire performances against Macedonia, Slovakia, Brazil, the second half against Sweden, Greece, Albania at home. Sven may only have lost one competetive match but he's also drawn a few that he should have won. I'm worried because the team that put out that first half performance last night is more than capable of performing like that against Liechtenstein and more importantly Turkey.

I know what I'd do in the next game, drop some of the first team in favour of the kids. If Owen is still in such dire form there's no way he should be anywhere near the England team. He's a world classs striker but when he's in form like this he's an embarrasment. Rooney, vassell or Jeffers should take his place. Frank "watch me lose the ball" Lampard should never be seen in an England shirt again, Phil "I've got Viera in me back pocket, me" Neville should be in the centre of the midfield with Scholes and Beckham (I've been saying this for a year now) I'm still not convinced about Dyer but he's worth another run out. Gary Neville had a bad night and I'll excuse him that so the back four can stay the same. James should be behind Robinson, Wright, Kirkland and Hoult for that No.1 shirt.

[lanman]

Originally posted by Prenn
Frank "watch me lose the ball" Lampard should never be seen in an England shirt again, Phil "I've got Viera in me back pocket, me" Neville should be in the centre of the midfield with Scholes and Beckham (I've been saying this for a year now) I'm still not convinced about Dyer but he's worth another run out. Gary Neville had a bad night and I'll excuse him that so the back four can stay the same. James should be behind Robinson, Wright, Kirkland and Hoult for that No.1 shirt.

I'm with you completely on this - Phil Neville in midfield would has proved all of the critics wrong - it's just a shame the media still think of Euro 2000 (when he was played as a right footed left back). Dyer is a pale shadow of his Newcastle team-mate Jenas, who is a true star in the making. David James should be behind me and Stephen Hawking in England consideration. Rooney has to play - he is the greatest talent we have unearthed since Duncan Edwards, and as long as he is not forced to play 50+ Everton games a season he will cope fine.

I would field a side along the lines of:-

Robinson - Gary Neville - Campbell, Southgate, Ferdinand - Ashley Cole - Beckham, Scholes, Phil Neville - Rooney, Owen(if on form - otherwise Smith, Jeffers or Fowler if fit or compose in Smith's case)

If Jenas contines to develop at his current rate then I would replace Beckham with him or replce one of the strikers and play Scholes in a withdrawn role.

[Prenn]

Originally posted by lanman
I'm with you completely on this - Phil Neville in midfield would has proved all of the critics wrong - it's just a shame the media still think of Euro 2000 (when he was played as a right footed left back). Dyer is a pale shadow of his Newcastle team-mate Jenas, who is a true star in the making. David James should be behind me and Stephen Hawking in England consideration. Rooney has to play - he is the greatest talent we have unearthed since Duncan Edwards, and as long as he is not forced to play 50+ Everton games a season he will cope fine.

I would field a side along the lines of:-

Robinson - Gary Neville - Campbell, Southgate, Ferdinand - Ashley Cole - Beckham, Scholes, Phil Neville - Rooney, Owen(if on form - otherwise Smith, Jeffers or Fowler if fit or compose in Smith's case)

If Jenas contines to develop at his current rate then I would replace Beckham with him or replce one of the strikers and play Scholes in a withdrawn role.

I agree, although I'd perhaps avoid dropping Beckham unless it was absolutely necessary.

Speaking of Beckham did anyone else notice him trying to do everything last night? He was treading on the toes of his team mates which can't be a good thing at all. He did the same thing against Greece and while he may have 'won' it for us in the end I can't help but feel his constant roaming confused his team mates.

[Bizzo]

Originally posted by Prenn

Speaking of Beckham did anyone else notice him trying to do everything last night? He was treading on the toes of his team mates which can't be a good thing at all. He did the same thing against Greece and while he may have 'won' it for us in the end I can't help but feel his constant roaming confused his team mates.

In the Greece game Beckham only started taking over the entire midfield after his team-mates (Scholes & Gerrard primarily) showed that the on the day they were incapable of completing a 5yard pass.
Phil Neville is no more an international player than Lampard is. He is similar to Andy Cole in that he is a much better club player than people give him credit for, but he also becomes lost in the step up.
In the few opportunities Dyer has had since Sven took over he has been very disappointing. At the same time I don't think he has ever played with Beckham, Scholes & Gerrard at the same time.
From the Australia game Jenas is the player who appears most ready to take the next step but he should not be taking Beckham's place.

[BadAzzSnowboarder]

I've lost a huge amount of respect for the English national team and this result will haunt the squad for a long time.

The fact Sven experimented in favor of preserving England's top players for their respective clubs, is a non-issue here. England's U20 side should have been enough to crush the Aussies. Either the Aussies weren't as bad as everyone thought or England just sucked a-ss. Either way, the enormous amount of respect and admiration I had for the England squad is now gone.

Sorry to say, I'd say this is as bad as Germany losing to England 5-1 in Munich a while ago. Except at least the German team lost to a respected side, but the Englsh team were beaten by a bunch of bums.

[Prenn]

Originally posted by Bizzo
In the Greece game Beckham only started taking over the entire midfield after his team-mates (Scholes & Gerrard primarily) showed that the on the day they were incapable of completing a 5yard pass.

I've already said that Beckhams roaming had something to do with that. You may well be right but I doin't like the way he tries to do everything.

Phil Neville is no more an international player than Lampard is. He is similar to Andy Cole in that he is a much better club player than people give him credit for, but he also becomes lost in the step up.

No, there's a big difference here. Phil Neville has never played in the centre of midfield for England, which is where he's been excelling for Man Utd. He may not be able to make the step up but he's a much better defensive midfielder than he is full back and I'l love to see him get a chance to play that position for England.


In the few opportunities Dyer has had since Sven took over he has been very disappointing. At the same time I don't think he has ever played with Beckham, Scholes & Gerrard at the same time.
From the Australia game Jenas is the player who appears most ready to take the next step but he should not be taking Beckham's place.

True, although I can't help but feel that Dyer goes into 'headless chicken' mode when he plays for England. With a few more chances he may be able to find his feet.

[Euroboy]

Originally posted by Bizzo
In the Greece game Beckham only started taking over the entire midfield after his team-mates (Scholes & Gerrard primarily) showed that the on the day they were incapable of completing a 5yard pass.
Phil Neville is no more an international player than Lampard is. He is similar to Andy Cole in that he is a much better club player than people give him credit for, but he also becomes lost in the step up.
In the few opportunities Dyer has had since Sven took over he has been very disappointing. At the same time I don't think he has ever played with Beckham, Scholes & Gerrard at the same time.
From the Australia game Jenas is the player who appears most ready to take the next step but he should not be taking Beckham's place.

Good point

[mactheknife]

since i'm not a native englishman (i've adopted the team after a couple visits) i'm just going to keep my opinions about the teams performance to myself for awhile.....


though i will say i was dissapointed. that was a game we should've won.

[Ruud]

WOW, cricket, rugby leauge, tennis now socceR?. England be wanting the convicts back now.

[sydtheeagle]

Originally posted by BadAzzSnowboarder
I've lost a huge amount of respect for the English national team and this result will haunt the squad for a long time.

The fact Sven experimented in favor of preserving England's top players for their respective clubs, is a non-issue here. England's U20 side should have been enough to crush the Aussies. Either the Aussies weren't as bad as everyone thought or England just sucked a-ss. Either way, the enormous amount of respect and admiration I had for the England squad is now gone.

Sorry to say, I'd say this is as bad as Germany losing to England 5-1 in Munich a while ago. Except at least the German team lost to a respected side, but the Englsh team were beaten by a bunch of bums.

Point one: If you've lost a "huge amount of respect" for the English team, fair enough. That's up to you. But for heaven's sakes, it was a meaningless mid-season friendly played (particulary for the first forty five minutes) by at least eight players who'd really rather have been somewhere else. By all means disrespect them for their lack of pride in the jersey, but forget the performance. It was meaningless. The people I don't respect are those dumb enough to pay good money to watch that sort of game.

Point two: It won't haunt anyone associated with the team for longer than about ten minutes. Who gives a toss? We lost to a decent, and moreover highly motivated side, many of whose players we were well aware were very good before kick off. A narrow WIN in a serious EC or WC qualifying match against mediocre opposition would (and does) haunt us far more than anything that could ever happen in a friendly.

Point three: Do you know anything about football? A full strength Australian team is far from a "walk-over" opponent and if you really think an England U-20 side would walk over a team including Schwartzer, Kewell, Viduka, Okon, Emerton, etc. etc., all top quality players (not to mention the likes of Popovic and Muscat) then you are deluding yourself. Australia is not a world power, perhaps not even a "Premiership" team in the international game but they are a solid "first division" side perfectly capable of beating any of the big names on their day. Your comments don't insult England (hell, why should they care if you think they sucked ass when you betray your own ignorance in the rest of your comments?); but they certainly insult Australia, who are no mean team and weren't before the game, either.

Point four: Oh yeah, Germany...because Germany is a "big name," they MUST be good, and Australia, because you've never heard of them (sitting, as you do, in the "soccer" capital of the world), must be a "bunch of bums". What a tosser. It seems to me that on this evidence you'd likely neither know a good performance from a bad one, or a giant-killing from a minor upset.

This post summarises why I so rarely visit or post on bigsoccer any longer. There are some great posts here, but they tend to be buried amidst masses of dross from people who don't know one end of a game of football from the other.

[divingheader]

So England lost to Australia. So What. The Socceroos are a decent team. The game cost nobody nothing. Sven looked at a lot of new talent. Great. When else should he do this? The fans got to see the national team play, and more importantly, the national team got to play together. The young guns looked good. Again great.

England fans should be excitedly talking about Jeffers and Rooney and Jenas. England fans should be talking about Sven keeping his eyes open and looking to improve the squad with new blood.

IMHO, England is the favorite for Euro glory in Portugal. A very good team that isn't on its last gasp and has a very lot young talent beating on the senior squad for playing time.

Listen to Elvis... Get Happy.