Prayer Does Not Help ...

[Norsk Troll]

... Heart Bypass Patients:

NEW YORK (AP) (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/ap_060330_prayer.html) — In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

The second part is what amuses me (the first part was a given).

God: "Wake me up with your damned whining, will you. I'll show you!!!"

Perhaps once the mind eases up and thinks everything will be OK because it's in god's hand and all, it stops acting subconsiously to keep the immune system running at full potential to fight the infection. Sort of an anti-placebo effect.

[Dolemite]

i can't believe it's 2006 and we need a damn study to tell us prayer doesn't help patients recover

[Dolemite]

why don't they study the effects of finding a four leaf clover on patients? what about throwing a penny in a fountain? getting the bigger part of a wishbone?

[bojendyk]

Kinda of BS study because none of the patients exact cases are going to be the same, nor are the patients surgical/care teams all going to be the same.

If that's your criteria, then nearly every medical study in the history of the field has some element of BS.

[bojendyk]

Perhaps, but given the individual level of each case this study, it's impossible to isolate the conditions to prove that the variable that they're "trying" to test (intercessory prayer) is rendered impossible to isolate one way or the other?

This "study" reeks of the so-called studies that the Fundies attempt to use to debunk "evolution".

The abstract is in Medline, which means that it's been published in a peer-reviewed journal. Here it is:

BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

I think that the sample sizes sufficed to ensure that variables were spread evenly among the three groups.

[bojendyk]

Oh, so it wasn't just survival, but an uncomplicated recovery? I know this surgery is pretty common, but somehow I doubt that a complication free recovery is.

Not quite sure that I follow your objection here. Complications occurred in roughly half of the patients in all three groups. The 30-day mortality rates were also roughly equivalent.

Incidentally, some of the authors listed Harvard as an affiliation, and others listed the Mind/Body Institute, which is one of those power of positive thinking organizations. Different points of view were well represented among the authors.

Items not tested. Did the patient and/or their family friends offer prayers.

There's no way to control for this variable. Not only would you require the researchers to ask the friends and family not to pray, but you would have to trust the family members to give you honest answers about whether they prayed. More importantly, you're criticizing this study for not being a different study.

Hard to tell without testing the above variable, isn't it? Plus they can't whether or not those prayers prevented thet people who had more comlications prevented them from dying, can they?

Again, I don't follow you. The mortality rates were the same across groups.

Perhaps, but if the result went the other way, would that prove that God exists, scientifically?

The study has nothing to do with the existence of God.

[bojendyk]

No, I'm criticizng the study for testing for variable that it can't scientifically measure. Just because you believe that you're isolating the "prayer" variable, doesn't mean that you are.

That's true. I had hoped that my employer had an institutional subscription to the journal in question, but we don't, so I can't see how (if at all) the authors address that variable.


Doesn't someone/thing have to answer the prayer?

And, what if, (and this is a huge thing for people that do believe in prayer to have to get over), the answer is no.

We're raising the same question here. What I'm now wondering is when it was that prayer shifted from being a form of worship to being a petition for favors. Or has it always had both functions?

[#10 Jersey]

Is the point of this thread to show that prayer is worthless. If so, it ignores the fact that prayer is a means of connecting to something bigger than yourself, it's not merely used as a means of making a request.

[Norsk Troll]

If by connecting to something bigger, you mean a greater being (i.e. a deity), then I would disagree with you. If by something bigger, you mean being part of a community, I would agree with you up to a point, except to note that much prayer is conducted in private. But would contend that there are many other ways to engage in the community that don't involve fictitious beliefs that people can affect the outcomes of life through supernatural supplication.

[John Galt]

I'm too lazy to do a Google search, but I'd thought I'd read that some peer-reviewed medical journals did observe a positive correlation in recovery and prayer when the individual was the one doing the praying and/or when the individual was aware of the people doing the praying (i.e., family/friends).

There's no real theology there since it could be explained away through psychological theories. Still, my understanding is there are journals out there demonstrating a positive impact of prayer.

[#10 Jersey]

If by connecting to something bigger, you mean a greater being (i.e. a deity), then I would disagree with you. If by something bigger, you mean being part of a community, I would agree with you up to a point, except to note that much prayer is conducted in private. But would contend that there are many other ways to engage in the community that don't involve fictitious beliefs that people can effect the outcomes of life through supernatural supplication.

I'm not saying what you believe. But, without question, one of the purposes of prayer is to connect with G-d.

So, if by citing this study, you are attempting to say that prayer is worthless, you have missed the point of prayer to a large extent.

In addition, to many, the point of prayer is to help one get through tough situations. See Harold Kushner's many books.

In addition, all that you had to say regarding a ficticious belief, regardless of how harshly you put it, is still just your opinion, not a fact.

[DJPoopypants]

I'm too lazy to do a Google search, but I'd thought I'd read that some peer-reviewed medical journals did observe a positive correlation in recovery and prayer when the individual was the one doing the praying and/or when the individual was aware of the people doing the praying (i.e., family/friends).

There's no real theology there since it could be explained away through psychological theories. Still, my understanding is there are journals out there demonstrating a positive impact of prayer.

I believe you are correct, but this study was focused on prayers from random people for sick patients they did not know.

I have some questions/thoughts/possible analyses of this study...

I only saw the macro-findings. "Overall..." But this was a big study, and surely each of the churches involved in this prayer4hire study did not pray for each patient? Surely they split it up, church #1 prays for patients 1-300, church #2 prays for patients 301-600, etc. Are there any correlations there - like perhaps the baptists' prayers were effective, but the methodists' weren't, and overall they cancelled each other out? Cuz perhaps God only listens to one particular denomination, or perhaps only to any denomination church full of good souls instead of lipservice christians...

And perhaps the higher incidence of complications in the "I know I'm gettin prayed for group" is because of perceived silliness? Perhaps the patient is like "well I'm jewish, this helps a real lot, thanks guys", or "roman catholics praying for me? Mother Mary is one of those cults that the satanic popes created"

Or perhaps because of the negative pressure applied? As in "Well, I haven't been to church for years", or "I've done some bad things in my life"...and thus "no way God's gonna help me out here. I kinda wish they kept their mouths shut so maybe God wouldn't notice an unworthy sinner down here like me"

[Norsk Troll]

I think they forgot to control for how many people were out there praying for the infections. Some people like to root for the underdog, you know.

[Chicago1871]

I'm torn over these findings. While I don't believe that praying is going to get you better by getting the all mighty Foos to notice you and help out, the power of the mind is fascinating and you'd think belief that one's conditioin will improve would, in fact, help it improve. That said, if they're putting every in God's hands and not actively believing they'll get better, then I can see the negative results.

[DJPoopypants]

I'm torn over these findings. While I don't believe that praying is going to get you better by getting the all mighty Foos to notice you and help out, the power of the mind is fascinating and you'd think belief that one's conditioin will improve would, in fact, help it improve. That said, if they're putting every in God's hands and not actively believing they'll get better, then I can see the negative results.

Personal or family prayer can easily be seen as a religious "placebo effect", where hope, attention etc help the recovery process. And there is no reason to not believe it can be a "good vibe" effect, perhaps like eastern yoga or meditation. the mind is a powerful tool we barely understand.

But giving somebody else a placebo pill miles away and thinking it can make a positive impact on you...? There would haveta be some super-long-range interpersonal vibes going on there. I just can't imagine it happening.

[Michael K.]

There would haveta be some super-long-range interpersonal vibes going on there. I just can't imagine it happening.

Spooky action at a distance, man. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement)

[argentine soccer fan]

I think people who want to measure prayer in a scientific way are completely missing the point of prayer. But it is not surprising that people who close their minds to everything but what they can sense or measure scientifically will never be able to understand why so many of us pray, and will never be able to trully comprehend how or why prayer is helpful to us.

[Mel Brennan]

I think people who want to measure prayer in a scientific way are completely missing the point of prayer. But it is not surprising that people who close their minds to everything but what they can sense or measure scientifically will never be able to understand why so many of us pray, and will never be able to trully comprehend how or why prayer is helpful to us.

Eh; science doesn't have to know everything about everything in order to engage or utilise something. Science accounts for the placebo effect, it runs COPAXONE out on the market when it doesn't even know how it actually works...it can account for prayer too; science is just submitting that there's less evidence for that actually doing anything at all than there is for the placebo effect. Doesn't stop 5,000 people praying for my wife. And who knows; maybe it does something. I say it can't hurt. Great thing about science, though? It's willing to adjust - and even to rip down previous ways to thinking - based upon new findings.

Now every framework here can't say that, can they?

[prk166]

Perhaps, but given the individual level of each case this study, it's impossible to isolate the conditions to prove that the variable that they're "trying" to test (intercessory prayer) is rendered impossible to isolate one way or the other?

This "study" reeks of the so-called studies that the Fundies attempt to use to debunk "evolution".

I heard the guy who ran the study in an interview. This clearly was not aimed at debunking prayer. In fact, going into the study they hypothisized [sic] that prayer would help. He did speak to the limitations of the study and some possible things that may be studied more closely thanks to this study.

[argentine soccer fan]

Eh; science doesn't have to know everything about everything in order to engage or utilise something. Science accounts for the placebo effect, it runs COPAXONE out on the market when it doesn't even know how it actually works...it can account for prayer too; science is just submitting that there's less evidence for that actually doing anything at all than there is for the placebo effect. Doesn't stop 5,000 people praying for my wife. And who knows; maybe it does something. I say it can't hurt. Great thing about science, though? It's willing to adjust - and even to rip down previous ways to thinking - based upon new findings.

Now every framework here can't say that, can they?

No, they certainly cannot. But science also has its limitations, and they are clear and obvious, as science is dependent on observation based on sensory experience.

I will argue that to be able to scientifically study the supernatural and expect to be able to come up with measurable and reliable results is, a priori, an impossible proposition. In my view, to artificially set up prayer groups in order to attempt to study the effects of such prayers on heart patients, as though prayer was a new drug with potential healing effects, is ridiculous.

I can say from personal experience that during my journey of self discovery I have uncovered the power that prayer can have in my life. And I found that such power has nothing at all to do with prayer being a miracle cure.

If I ever have heart problems, I will depend on my valued friend the doctor to try to find a physical solution which will keep me alive. But at the same time, I will summon the power of my prayer and that of my loved ones to help me get through the ordeal, and I trust that it will help me, just as it has helped me get through other difficult ordeals that life has dealt me.

I don't necesarily expect prayer to physically heal my heart, but I expect it to help me at a personal level to deal with the situation in ways which my esteemed friend the scientist can never hope to be able to measure.