Skeptical about fans and Glassboro

[joamiq]

Two questions from a central Jersey Metros - I mean Red Bull - fan (seriously, I make that mistake at least a dozen times a day):

First will the team be able to draw new fans? I can see some south Jersey/north Philly fans maybe turning their attention from the Metros to Glassboro, but that wouldn't constitute growth for the MLS, it would be a cannibalization of the Metros. I just can't see the team drawing enough new fans to make it worth it. Do those living in south Jersey or the Philly area feel otherwise? Is there a significant untapped market of people who don't already follow the Metros? I apologize if this is a stupid question and the answer is a resounding yes, I don't spend much time on this particular board.

Second, how much are Philly fans going to like having a team in Glassboro? Isn't the fact that the team isn't in Pennsylvania and also that Glassboro lacks public transport a major downer? Wouldn't there be significantly more interest in a team actually located in Philadelphia, enough perhaps to overcome the extra costs?

I know Rowan approached MLS and not the other way around about this. I wonder if MLS should take a step back and consider other opportunities. Of course there is still a long way to go. But I wonder if some South Jersey/Philly people could tell me if they disagree with these points.

[PhillyMLS]

You are going to have some cannibalization of your fan base for both DC and RBNY. However it will be negligible compared to the growth you would gain from attracting local fans. The counties within just 30 miles of the stadium are home to between 1.5 and 2 million people. So your season ticket holder fan base is about that big. You factor in people another 20 miles out from there you are looking at another 1 to 1.5 million people who would come to a game every now and again.

Now would we like it better if the team was in Philly? Yes. Does it matter? To a certain degree it does. However as has been pointed out the demographics of the area are moving towards a more populated South Jersey area. Gloucester county is having 7& growth and parts of Camden county are doing well also. Any population growth in this area will have to occur predominantly in the SJ area because outside of Chester County there is very little room for development in the PA suburbs (though they really try, trust me).

The biggest problems that are facing putting a team in Philly proper is that there is no room and the cost would be astronomical. The closest option to Philly was the Chester waterfront but that project is now a casino and horse track development. The only other development was Bristol which is just as far away as Glassboro and would be more likely to cannibalize the RBNY fan base up in that area.

[PhillySportsTeams.co]

I'm from North Philly & I can tell you that there is virtually ZERO interest in soccer. North Philly is all about basketball. no other sport even registers. Soccer isn't exactly big in the ghetto.

WAIT! DUH! Do you mean to reference the suburbs north of Philadelphia? I'm assuming that's what you meant now that I think about it.

To be blunt & with no disrespect, the Metrostars would lose ZERO fans because we HATE all sports teams from the New York area- including north jersey. When MLS launched I chose to follow DC United because rooting for a New York team wasn't an option. I find myself the exception rooting for DC United because most of my fellow Philly sports fans say it is just too far & again- cheering for NY is not an option. I don't think MLS can be anything but benefit from adding a team in the Greater Philadelphia Region.

I always took it for granted that the team would play in philadelphia itself. I prefer the team to play within the city limits. There have been grumblings for a long time that MLS would add a team to Lincoln financial Field- all grass home of the Philadelphia Eagles. When MLs launched they claimed they couldn't put a team in Philly because the Eagles & Phillies played in Veteran's Stadium which was bad Astroturf. Initially we thought all we needed was a real grass field to land a team. In more recent years MLS has changed their goal from simply finding a grass field to smaller, more soccer specific venues. I completely see the reason for this & agree with it.

There IS public tansportation from Philly to south Jersey. The PATCO High speed Line runs from dowentown Philly across the Ben Franklin Bridge to Camden, NJ & on to other points farther south in Jersey. While it doesn't go to the location of the proposed stadium location it could be looked at as an expansion possibility or having a bus route from the train line to the stadium. As a Philadelphian, the biggest pain in the butt with going to South Jersey to see a game id having to pay the high toll to cross one of the bridges into Jersey. AND as it is now the local roads around Rowan aren't equipped to handle the traffic that MLS games would generate. Obviously, with the team not playing before 2009 there is plenty of time to address that.

Ultimately, as a philly person- Rowan isn't my ideal location but it is a local MLS team in our area regardless 7 for me that is the most important thing. IF the Rowan deal becomes reality I will be one Philadelphian to fully embrace the team as my own & purchase season tickets. I just want big time soccer. I never thought that sitting in the stands in Veteran's Stadium in the early 80's watching the Philadelphia Fury in the NASL that I'd be hoping almost 25 years later for major league soccer again. I'm 10 years in now as a fanatic of DC United so I think when the time comes closer I may have mixed feelings about switching allegiances. I've grown with them & been with them thru MLS championships. Driving all the way to DC for home games has become wacky yet special for me. BUT I still want a team in my area.

Thanks for listening.

[Steve Holroyd]

If history teaches us anything, I don't think you'll lose too many fans.

In 1973, the Philadelphia Atoms set the NASL on fire by establishing all kinds of attendance records; they averaged about 11,000 a game when the league averaged 5,500, and they drew several crowds of over 20,000, which was unheard of back then.

This success was due, in no small part, to the Trenton-area market.

By 1976, the Atoms were gone. Meanwhile, in 1977, the Pele-led Cosmos moved into the new Giants Stadium. The Trenton market started going there, contributing significantly to the Cosmos' attendance successes.

Notably, when pro soccer returned to Philadelphia in 1978, the Fury never got back the Trenton audience, ergo that team's dismal failure at the gate (well, there were other reasons, too, but the fact remains they never recaptured the Trenton market).

I realize that the fact that we are talking about the NASL's most-glamorous team v. a new team which never rose above mediocrity, and that that had something to do with it. However, I believe the switch was more symptomatic of the fact that central NJers identify more with New York than Philadelphia.

So, all told, I don't think NYRB is going to take too much of a hit from any Glassboro club.

DC, on the other hand, might find whatever Delaware/deep South Jersey fan base they have eroded somewhat.

[Sundevil9]

You are going to have some cannibalization of your fan base for both DC and RBNY. However it will be negligible compared to the growth you would gain from attracting local fans. The counties within just 30 miles of the stadium are home to between 1.5 and 2 million people. So your season ticket holder fan base is about that big. You factor in people another 20 miles out from there you are looking at another 1 to 1.5 million people who would come to a game every now and again.



Just to pile on in support. There are certainly some die hards in PA, South, and Central Jersey, that make the trek up to the Meadowlands to see that team. And there's a good number of folks in Delaware, PA, and South Jersey that make the trek to RFK for United games. But I wouldn't think that 100% of them have season's tickets. If you plop a team in the middle both the North Jersey and DC team's may lose a little bit, but the league as a whole whould gain more fans on a weekly basis.

And I don't think people give the population of Camden, Gloucester, Southern Burlington Counties enough credit for the population or the soccer culture located there.

[dfb547490]

I don't think there are very many RB fans in the Philly area. Most of us grow up hating New York teams. If anything there are more DCU and Crew fans.

[CyphaPSU]

I don't think there are very many RB fans in the Philly area. Most of us grow up hating New York teams.
I completely concur. This goes for all of Southeast PA and most of South Jersey.

[Leon_St_Spurs]

I'm from North Philly & I can tell you that there is virtually ZERO interest in soccer. North Philly is all about basketball. no other sport even registers. Soccer isn't exactly big in the ghetto.

WAIT! DUH! Do you mean to reference the suburbs north of Philadelphia? I'm assuming that's what you meant now that I think about it.

To be blunt & with no disrespect, the Metrostars would lose ZERO fans because we HATE all sports teams from the New York area- including north jersey. When MLS launched I chose to follow DC United because rooting for a New York team wasn't an option. I find myself the exception rooting for DC United because most of my fellow Philly sports fans say it is just too far & again- cheering for NY is not an option. I don't think MLS can be anything but benefit from adding a team in the Greater Philadelphia Region.

Completely agree. I could never cheer for a NY team or even a Northern NJ team. The whole thing about soccer not being big in the inner cities is interesting though. I know why, but you would think that more poor kids would play soccer since soccer is a rather cheap sport to play (compared to other sports. the exception being basketball) do ya think its the lack of green fields or the whole media/sportscenter hatred of soccer that makes more kids look towards basketball than soccer as a means to escape?

[n4100]

Completely agree. I could never cheer for a NY team or even a Northern NJ team. The whole thing about soccer not being big in the inner cities is interesting though. I know why, but you would think that more poor kids would play soccer since soccer is a rather cheap sport to play (compared to other sports. the exception being basketball) do ya think its the lack of green fields or the whole media/sportscenter hatred of soccer that makes more kids look towards basketball than soccer as a means to escape?
Well, lets see, riding down from Fox Chase on the R8 4 times a week I notice a distinct lack of playing fields once you get below Lawncrest. I could count a number of BB courts available, but not so much green space. Another problem is that everything in terms of soccer is that so organizaed here in the states, that it becomes a problem for the inner-city kids to join. Where a kid from the suburbs has access to fields and travelling tournaments and whatnot. Also its what everyone else is playing.

[Big_Ghi]

So, all told, I don't think NYRB is going to take too much of a hit from any Glassboro club.

You're right - the big hit is going to come from the upcoming property tax hikes in NJ. Local estimates have next year's average increases ranging from $500 to $750 for a modest three-bedroom home. $6200 would buy a lot of soccer tickets.

[DaMunk]

Well, lets see, riding down from Fox Chase on the R8 4 times a week I notice a distinct lack of playing fields once you get below Lawncrest. I could count a number of BB courts available, but not so much green space. Another problem is that everything in terms of soccer is that so organizaed here in the states, that it becomes a problem for the inner-city kids to join. Where a kid from the suburbs has access to fields and travelling tournaments and whatnot. Also its what everyone else is playing.

You hit the nail on the head.

That is one of the reason why I think Drexel fencing in their small turf field was a disservice to the community. People of all ages and origins used to spend summer nights there - NE Philly, West Philly, even kids from Jersey would come across the bridge for the competition. I'm positive they're all are playing elsewhere, but I'm sure there is not the ethnic/cultural mix there was at Drexel.

[Sundevil9]

Well, lets see, riding down from Fox Chase on the R8 4 times a week I notice a distinct lack of playing fields once you get below Lawncrest. I could count a number of BB courts available, but not so much green space. Another problem is that everything in terms of soccer is that so organizaed here in the states, that it becomes a problem for the inner-city kids to join. Where a kid from the suburbs has access to fields and travelling tournaments and whatnot. Also its what everyone else is playing.


Good points.

But it's about the will to play. Kearny, NJ has no grass, but still managed to turn out Harkes, Meola, and Ramos. But they played in pick-up games on ashfalt tennis courts. The problem is that it's is indeed too organized, and the perception that it MUST be organized in order to exist. Kids don't think of soccer as getting a ball and a couple of friends to knock it around a bit.

[Steve Holroyd]

Kids don't think of soccer as getting a ball and a couple of friends to knock it around a bit.

True enough...but this is not soccer specific. Baseball falls into this category, too. In the suburbs, you can add basketball to the mix of sports that are only played "on a schedule." In fact, the only sport I see kids play on an ad hoc basis in suburbia is street hockey.

[PhilaBullDog]

It may be that the kids are not playing where you are watching. If you go to any Little League complex you will see kids playing pick-up soccer and basketball. My son and his friends will be at the complex for hours playing with their friends, its a great gathering place because it has consessions and lots of kids. If you have a community sports complex or park parents will bring their kids to play one sport and the sibblings will play in pick-up games. This does not happen if the complex is issolated, has only one field, or no other activities.

[n4100]

It may be that the kids are not playing where you are watching. If you go to any Little League complex you will see kids playing pick-up soccer and basketball. My son and his friends will be at the complex for hours playing with their friends, its a great gathering place because it has consessions and lots of kids. If you have a community sports complex or park parents will bring their kids to play one sport and the sibblings will play in pick-up games. This does not happen if the complex is issolated, has only one field, or no other activities.
Yeah, but that's the problem. When I was young (and hell, I'm only 27) we went outside, in the street and played pickup football/whatever. Nowadays you have to go to the nearest playground/field which might not be real close. Its great if mom and dad take the kid there, but what about when mom and dad work until 5:30 and the kid is on their own and can't get there?

[Sundevil9]

Yeah, but that's the problem. When I was young (and hell, I'm only 27) we went outside, in the street and played pickup football/whatever. Nowadays you have to go to the nearest playground/field which might not be real close. Its great if mom and dad take the kid there, but what about when mom and dad work until 5:30 and the kid is on their own and can't get there?

I don't recall the last time I saw a baseball game where a mailbox was first, a crushed milk carton was second, a pile of rocks was third, a pizza box was home plate, and the game had little continuity due to the cars wanted to use our street.

The perception anymore seems to be that if you want to pay baseball, you need to go find a baseball field, or any other specialized field for a sport of choice. Used to be that you just needed a somewhat open space, and you could fill in 'ground rules' as needed. But everything's been sterilized into structured camps and clinics.

[CyphaPSU]

Well, lets see, riding down from Fox Chase on the R8 4 times a week I notice a distinct lack of playing fields once you get below Lawncrest. I could count a number of BB courts available, but not so much green space. Another problem is that everything in terms of soccer is that so organizaed here in the states, that it becomes a problem for the inner-city kids to join. Where a kid from the suburbs has access to fields and travelling tournaments and whatnot. Also its what everyone else is playing.
...Well, this is an encouraging story (http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=8666) from South Philly.

[n4100]

I don't recall the last time I saw a baseball game where a mailbox was first, a crushed milk carton was second, a pile of rocks was third, a pizza box was home plate, and the game had little continuity due to the cars wanted to use our street.

The perception anymore seems to be that if you want to pay baseball, you need to go find a baseball field, or any other specialized field for a sport of choice. Used to be that you just needed a somewhat open space, and you could fill in 'ground rules' as needed. But everything's been sterilized into structured camps and clinics.
So I take it you remember "run past two cars, cut towards the other side of the street and look for the ball"?

[joamiq]

Thanks for sounding off guys. As an MLS fan first and foremost, I certainly hope the plan succeeds. Just to make it clear, it wasn't that I as a Red Bull NY fan felt threatened by a possible South Jersey team. I just wasn't sure that there was enough of a market there and I really don't want the league to make any bad moves. But you've helped alleviate those concerns of mine. I hope it works out. You Philly and South Jersey soccer die-hards deserve a team.

[okiebear]

Good points.

But it's about the will to play. Kearny, NJ has no grass, but still managed to turn out Harkes, Meola, and Ramos. But they played in pick-up games on ashfalt tennis courts. The problem is that it's is indeed too organized, and the perception that it MUST be organized in order to exist. Kids don't think of soccer as getting a ball and a couple of friends to knock it around a bit.

Good point about the kids. But soccer marketing means creating fan identity with a team (They quickly learn the nuances of offsides). The Nike ads are planting perfect thoughts in kids' heads. What is needed is marketing that attracts ticket-buyers. And solid demonstrations of effective capitalism --like the swoop for the Metro...Red Bulls--will help attract investors who can tell marketers to produce fans.