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colinh9
26 May 2008, 02:31 PM
I noticed this article was Pre-surge. Anything after?

Yeah no problem. Here's one from Oct 2007, then another from May 2008. Trust me there are plenty of these publications, I can keep them coming if you'd like.

After the surge
Gary Dorrien. The Christian Century. Chicago: Oct 30, 2007. Vol. 124, Iss. 22; pg. 8, 2 pgs

THE WEEKLY death tolls in Iraq have recently decreased-for four reasons: The U.S. troop "surge" has restricted the flow of explosives into Baghdad; ethnic cleansing has been completed in many areas; the Mahdi Army has suspended its attacks; and the U.S. is co-opting Sunni insurgents. Thus the Bush administration has been able to claim military progress and thereby to put off attempts to end the war.

But all of these factors are temporary or have perilous long-term consequences. Iraq is so thoroughly ripped apart by insurgent and sectarian violence that even Yugoslavia cannot be used as an analogy. There is no military solution to the insurgency or the civil war. And the hope of a unity government in Iraq is more remote than ever before.

General David Petraeus used the surge's five extra combat brigades to build a military ring around Baghdad and cut off the supply of ammunition to insurgents, sectarian fighters and foreign terrorists. This measure reduced attacks in the city and diverted violence to surrounding areas. At the height of the insurgent and sectarian violence in early 2007, Iraq was averaging approximately 1,800 attacks per week; the average by midsummer was 1,000. According to Iraq's Interior Ministry, 2,318 civilians were killed in August and 1,654 in September. These numbers represent reductions of approximately 30 percent from the early months of 2007.

Bush officials called the escalation a surge because they knew it would have to be temporary. The U.S. lacks the forces to sustain it. There are other problems with calling the surge a success. The high death tolls of a year ago reflected vicious campaigns of ethnic cleansing in many areas that are now completed, at least until an all-out civil war erupts. The Mahdi Army-the main anti-American Shi'ite militia group-suspended its attacks in August after it had a dangerous clash with the Badr Organization, the Shi'ite militia group that dominates the Iraqi army and police force. The current lull in violence will end as soon as the Mahdi Army resumes the murderous business for which it exists.

Petraeus's risky deal with Sunni tribal sheiks was sharply contested in the military before Petraeus's strategy prevailed. Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a homegrown Sunni Arab insurgent group led by foreign terrorists, has alienated Sunni tribal sheiks by bombing marketplaces and killing Iraqis indiscriminantly. Last spring Petraeus, hoping to capitalize on the alienation, began giving weapons to tribal police forces and other militia groups in Anbar Province that promised to use them against foreign terrorists. Attacks on American troops went down after the policy was instituted, so this summer Petraeus rolled the dice in the entire Sunni triangle of Baghdad, Ramadi and Tikrit, an area that includes Samarra and Fallujah, despite the opposition of the Maliki government.

Officially the U.S. says that it will not give arms to individuals who are known to have killed Americans; off the record officials acknowledge that, of course, we rarely know who the insurgents are anyway. The very groups that the U.S. has been fighting for the past four years are now getting U.S. weapons if they promise to use them against foreign terrorists.

Co-opting the Sunnis has bought some relief for U.S. forces, helping to reduce American deaths in August and September to 84 and 63 respectively. But this scheme is obviously loaded with peril. Trying to co-opt insurgent groups is not new in counterinsurgency warfare. The French, the British and the U.S. tried it, respectively, in Algeria, Malaya and Vietnam. In each case the weapons given to insurgent groups ended up being used against the forces providing them. Major General Rick Lynch, commander of the Third Infantry Division, explains the mentality of the Sunni militants he is trying to co-opt: "They say to us, 'We hate you because you are occupiers, but we hate alQaeda worse, and we hate the Persians even more.'" (In this lexicon, Iraqi Shi'ites are Persians.)

So the U.S. is arming Sunni insurgents in the hope that they will spend most of their time killing people in the middle group, even as they profess to hating Shi'ites most of all. The Shi'ite-dominated government, naturally, has pleaded against this scheme. Last July during a video conference, Prime Minister Maliki implored Bush to terminate the policy and fire Petraeus. He also threatened to arm Shi'ite militias with government funds in response; Bush told Maliki to calm down. In public Maliki's top political adviser, Sadiq Rikabi, is more plaintive. There are too many militias already, he says, so "why are we creating new ones?" (Ali al-Fadhily and Dahr Jamail, "Iraq: A Nail in Maliki Government's Coffin?" Inter Press Service, August 3; New York Times, August 11).

The answer is that the U.S. mission in Iraq is that desperate. Military leaders who lost the argument with Petraeus are already leaking "I told you so" comments to the media. For two years many Shi'ite leaders sat back, bided their time, gave lip service to a unity government, thwarted any real attempt at one, and trusted the Americans to kill off their Sunni enemies. But the Americans failed, and civil war erupted. Today the Shi'ites and Kurds see total victory within their grasp. Sectarian killings have doubled in Iraq over the past year, and the danger to U.S. troops by Shi'ite militias has soared. According to U.S. Lieutenant General Ray Odierno, Shi'ite militias launched approximately 75 percent of the successful attacks on U.S. forces this summer, often using weapons supplied by Iran. Shi'ite factions are less inclined than ever to make any political deals. Maliki explained to Admiral William Fallen this summer: "There are two mentalities in this region: conspiracy and mistrust."

Achieving a unified Iraqi democracy is a fantasy under these conditions. Even a cynical, thuggish settlement is out of reach as long as the major factions and players are consumed with sectarian agendas. Iraq cannot get to a decent outcome as long as the Sunnis remain a hostile minority, Shi'ite leaders exclude the Sunnis from governing, Shi'ite militias dominate the army and police force, and militias on all sides continue to proliferate. President Bush warns: "For all those who ask whether the fight is worth it, imagine an Iraq where militia groups backed by Iran control larger parts of the country." But that is exactly what is happening now-with the tacit consent of the very government that Bush wants to prop up with more blood and treasure.

The Baker-Hamilton Commission called for the U.S. to pull back, leaving air, ground and naval deployments in Kuwait, Bahrain and other bases in the Middle East while maintaining some residual U.S. forces in Iraq to fight terrorism and stabilize the Kurdish region. While the Republican presidential field is standing by the president s policy of escalating the war and delaying the inevitable withdrawal of forces, the Democratic candidates are offering variations on the Baker-Hamilton strategy. Hillary Clinton essentially adopted it last spring, which required a major change of position for her. Barack Obama wants to leave a residual force in Iraq to provide security for American personnel, fight terrorism and train Iraqi forces. John Edwards envisions leaving a residual force to intervene in an Iraqi genocide and deal with any violence that spills into neighboring nations. In the second tier of Democratic candidates, Bill Richardson supports an immediate and total withdrawal from Iraq that leaves a good deal of military equipment behind, Dennis Kucinich supports an immediate and total withdrawal that would take up to a year to accomplish, and Joseph Biden wants American troops to stay until Iraq can be separated into three regions.

The U.S. should be planning how to get out of Iraq. It should make it clear that it is leaving; that the U.S. will offer asylum to all Iraqis endangered by their cooperation with U.S. forces; and that the U.S. will provide massive economic assistance for all humanitarian work undertaken by the United Nations, NATO, other governments and international agencies. Thus far the U.S. attitude and record are not encouraging. Sweden has accepted over 20,000 Iraqis seeking asylum in the past year; the U.S. has taken in fewer than 900.

The U.S. has two strategic objectives in the Persian Gulf: to protect its allies and secure its oil interests. It can do both of these things without stationing troops on the ground. Both strategic objectives are best secured by maintaining a strong naval presence in the Indian Ocean and some naval forces in the Persian Gulf so that ships can get through the Strait of Hormuz. That can be done by stationing forces in the Indian Ocean and at bases outside the Middle East. In other words, the U.S. could go back to the policy it had in the 1980s.



Lullaby of Baghdad
Paul Starr. The American Prospect. Princeton: May 2008. Vol. 19, Iss. 5; pg. 3, 1 pgs

IS REDUCED VIOLENCE IN IRAQ-REDUCED, THAT IS, from its peak in 2006-a sign that the United States is finally on the road to victory? Or is U.S. strategy in the war, as Steven Simon argues in the May/June issue of Foreign Affairs, "stoking the three forces that have traditionally threatened the stability of Middle Eastern states: tribalism, warlordism, and sectarianism" and consequently making Iraq ungovernable? In other words, is the Bush administration purchasing shortterm stability in Iraq-and a lulled electorate at home-at the cost of a deepened and prolonged conflict?

There's no doubt that the "surge" in U.S. forces (now being drawn down to 140,000 troops) has bought the administration political relief. News coverage of the fighting has dropped, and congressional Democrats have been stymied in efforts to end the conflict. (I'm writing just before Gen. David Petraeus' congressional testimony.) Perhaps most important, although a majority of the public continues to believe that invading Iraq was a mistake, those who favor the war such as Sen. John McCain have been bolstered in their determination to fight on until victory.

The war's supporters say that whatever the earlier mistakes, the surge and the new bottom-up counterinsurgency strategy have improved security and put al-Qaeda in Iraq on the run. In this view, it would be a disastrous error to quit the war just as the tide has turned.

But a variety of analyses tell a different story. In early April, the congressionally funded U.S. Institute of Peace released a report by experts on Iraq concluding, "Political progress is so slow, halting and superficial, and social and political fragmentation so pronounced, that the U.S. is no closer to being able to leave Iraq than it was a year ago. Lasting political development could take five to ten years of full, unconditional U.S. commitment to Iraq."

But didn't the surge reduce attacks and casualties? Actually, the number of attacks has stabilized at about 570 per week (before spiking in March), and much of the reduction came from three other developments. In early 2007, even before the surge, violence began falling because the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad was mostly finished, and it dropped further after the Shia cleric Moktada al-Sadr declared a cease-fire by his Mahdi Army on August 28.

The third development-the decision of Sunnis in Anbar and some other areas to abandon the insurgency and join sahwa or "Awakening" groups to fight the foreign jihadists-has been widely heralded as the war's biggest turnaround. But, as Simon argues in his Foreign Affairs article, the U.S. decision to pay and equip these tribal groups strengthens the centrifugal tendencies weakening the Iraqi state. America now funds the Kurdish Peshmerga, the Sunni sahwa, and the Iraqi security Forces heavily infiltrated by the Badr militia. Our money and arms flow not just to the three major sectarian groups but to contending factions and strongmen within each one.

Current policy, retired Gen. William E. Odom told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 2, "has placed the United States astride several civil wars. And it allows all sides to consolidate, rearm, and refill their financial coffers" at American expense. And the U.S. Institute of Peace report warns, "Empowering the Awakenings-often composed of former insurgents and leaders stridently opposed to the Iraqi government-carries with it a major risk of blowback."

Some analysts hope that even with a weak state, a stable equilibrium will emerge among the warring sects, tribes, and militias, but that hope goes against the historical record and widely held expectations in Iraq that the contest for power will be settled by violence. The United States now finds itself in the bizarre role of arming rival factions to stop a civil war.

And the contradictions don't stop there. The president has defined victory in Iraq as the creation of a state that will be an American ally, while the Iraqi government we are supporting has close ties to Iran and is unlikely ever to oppose it.

But what about staying in Iraq to fight al-Qaeda? General Odom answered that question in his Senate testimony: "The concern ... about a residual base left for al-Qaeda if we withdraw is utter nonsense. The Sunnis will soon destroy al-Qaeda if we leave Iraq. The Kurds do not allow them in their region, and the Shiites, like the Iranians, detest al-Qaeda."

That is as much of a victory as we are likely to get when, sooner or later, we face up to the limits of our power and recognize that American forces cannot be tied up indefinitely trying to prevent Iraqis from killing one another. Enough of the lullaby of Baghdad. Americans need their own Awakening.

- PAUL STARR

ToonUSA
26 May 2008, 03:24 PM
This is going nowhere Colin.

You post some obscure editorials and I'll counter with words straight from the US Ambassador to Iraq. Won't matter though as you'll probably dismiss them.

Al Qaeda has never been closer to defeat (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_080517190304;_ylt=AoxI1DQ.EuUnO5TXSwwiOYFX6GMA)

The U.S. ambassador to Iraq said Saturday that al-Qaida's network in the country has never been closer to defeat, and he praised Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki for his moves to rein in Shiite and Sunni militant groups.

"There is important progress for the Iraqi forces in confronting the Sunni and Shiite militias," he said, speaking Arabic to reporters. "The government, the prime minister are showing a clear determination to take on extremist armed elements that challenge the government's authority ... no matter who these elements are."

"You are not going to hear me say that al-Qaida is defeated, but they've never been closer to defeat than they are now," Crocker said.

The U.S. military says attacks have dropped dramatically — down to an average of 41 a day across the country, the lowest rate since 2004 — amid the crackdowns and truces. The U.S. military, backed by Sunni Arab tribal fighters, have scored successes in battling al-Qaida in Iraq and other Sunni insurgents in western parts of the country.

tigerdave
26 May 2008, 03:51 PM
For the love of God, please link your stories and post one or two relevant paragraphs. You're making my eyes bleed.

Dirt McGirt
26 May 2008, 08:42 PM
This is going nowhere Colin.

You post some obscure editorials and I'll counter with words straight from the US Ambassador to Iraq. Won't matter though as you'll probably dismiss them.

Al Qaeda has never been closer to defeat (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_080517190304;_ylt=AoxI1DQ.EuUnO5TXSwwiOYFX6GMA)Considering the US Ambassador was appointed by George Bush it's likely he's

A. A ********ing moron like his boss
B. Being less then truthful to tow the Neo Con line of bullshit
C. Gets his talking points straight from the same guys that told us Iraq had WMD
D. A combination of A,B and C (My guess)

colinh9
26 May 2008, 08:53 PM
For the love of God, please link your stories and post one or two relevant paragraphs. You're making my eyes bleed.

Unless you subscribe to LexisNexis or EBSCO or any academic research you will not be able to access it. So i posted the full thing. They aren't even long articles by any means. Two in one post, I kept it that way for a purpose.

Obscure editorials from Foreign Affairs! If the Christian Century and American Prospect(which I will admit is liberal) don't work for you, let me know, I will post others.

Oh the foreign ambassador to Iraq! Was he appointed by somebody or did he just volunteer for the post? Guy must not have any bias whatsoever. The man has been ambassador for two months but he is able to say we are closer to defeating al-qaeda than EVER!

Even within the article you linked, there are many doubts. I'm pretty convinced you don't even read the articles before you post them, because this has happened on a few occasions.

But truces with the powerful Mahdi Army militia that have calmed violence in Basra and paved the way for the Sadr City deployment have been strained in the past two days.

Supporters of anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who heads the Mahdi Army, accused al-Maliki on Saturday of seeking to eliminate their movement and warned that "dark clouds" hang over the truce.

The Sadrists' angry rhetoric may in part be aimed at warning al-Maliki not to take more aggressive steps against the Mahdi Army in Sadr City, such as confiscating heavy weapons or arresting key figures. The government has said it plans to do so, but has not begun any raids in the district, wary of sparking retaliation.

This is a wonderful example of another point. Even the same religious groups have huge divides as to how to go about achieving their goals. Sadr has endorsed violence. Those like al-Maliki and Grand Ayatollah Ali-al-Sistani have endorsed negotiation and non-violent confrontation. Just within the Shias there are four political groups that are factionalized. Just the Dawa Party (party of Al-Maliki) has historically been divided into 3 different groups.
The Sunnis are similarly divided among tribes outside of Baghdad. How is it possible to come
to a power-sharing agreement when the situation is like that? That isn't even taking into consideration the hatred between the tribes and religious groups that exists.

Listen, keep calling me out on not knowing anything and providing no substance yourself. If you want to call me out on sources, calling them obscure, don't give me something that is so obviously biased that even a mackem could figure it out.

ToonUSA
27 May 2008, 02:21 AM
Unless you subscribe to LexisNexis or EBSCO or any academic research you will not be able to access it. So i posted the full thing. They aren't even long articles by any means. Two in one post, I kept it that way for a purpose.

Obscure editorials from Foreign Affairs! If the Christian Century and American Prospect(which I will admit is liberal) don't work for you, let me know, I will post others.
The Christian Century and American Prospect are obscure. The story I linked was picked up by Yahoo from the AP.

Oh the foreign ambassador to Iraq! Was he appointed by somebody or did he just volunteer for the post? Guy must not have any bias whatsoever. The man has been ambassador for two months but he is able to say we are closer to defeating al-qaeda than EVER!
So you don't trust any official inthe Government to be truthful if he was appointed by George W. Bush? I bet you didn't think General Petraeus was telling the truth either?


Even within the article you linked, there are many doubts. I'm pretty convinced you don't even read the articles before you post them, because this has happened on a few occasions.
How so? Because the article stated that everything isn't perfect there? The article was to prove the point that things are improving and that there is no civil war. Not to prove that Iraq is heaven on earth.

This is a wonderful example of another point. Even the same religious groups have huge divides as to how to go about achieving their goals. Sadr has endorsed violence. Those like al-Maliki and Grand Ayatollah Ali-al-Sistani have endorsed negotiation and non-violent confrontation. Just within the Shias there are four political groups that are factionalized. Just the Dawa Party (party of Al-Maliki) has historically been divided into 3 different groups.
The Sunnis are similarly divided among tribes outside of Baghdad. How is it possible to come
to a power-sharing agreement when the situation is like that? That isn't even taking into consideration the hatred between the tribes and religious groups that exists.
They don't like each other...how does that prove there's a civil war taking place?

Listen, keep calling me out on not knowing anything and providing no substance yourself. If you want to call me out on sources, calling them obscure, don't give me something that is so obviously biased that even a mackem could figure it out.
Once again, my source was an AP article picked up by Yahoo. That's not obscure. The American Prospect and Christian Century, now that's obscure.

If you're not going to even believe the words of an American Diplomat based solely on the fact he was appointed by a President you don't agree with there's no reason to keep discussing things with you.

Crazy Man Michael
27 May 2008, 11:26 AM
[QUOTE=colinh9;14700764]This is a wonderful example of another point. Even the same religious groups have huge divides as to how to go about achieving their goals. Sadr has endorsed violence. Those like al-Maliki and Grand Ayatollah Ali-al-Sistani have endorsed negotiation and non-violent confrontation. Just within the Shias there are four political groups that are factionalized. Just the Dawa Party (party of Al-Maliki) has historically been divided into 3 different groups. /QUOTE]

Of course they have divergent views on how to achieve their goals - that is what happens when you have freedom. Reading the paragraph above I couldn't help but think how well it fits so many moments in history, including the African American struggle for equality in the 60's. While leaders like MLK were arguing for peace, others were calling for, and even using, violence as a tactic. If you are worried about that as an issue, you should also be worried about Obama whose pastor comes firmly out of the violence as a tactic frame of mind from the 60's. I don't think he supports it now, but he still praises those who called for it them.

Dirt McGirt
27 May 2008, 09:27 PM
Former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan whacks Bush, White House in a surprisingly scathing memoir (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html)

http://images.politico.com/global/080527_mcclellan.jpg
Snitch

Among the most explosive revelations in the 341-page book, titled “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception” (Public Affairs, $27.95):

• McClellan charges that Bush relied on “propaganda” to sell the war.

• He says the White House press corps was too easy on the administration during the run-up to the war.

• He admits that some of his own assertions from the briefing room podium turned out to be “badly misguided.”

• The longtime Bush loyalist also suggests that two top aides held a secret West Wing meeting to get their story straight about the CIA leak case at a time when federal prosecutors were after them — and McClellan was continuing to defend them despite mounting evidence they had not given him all the facts.

• McClellan asserts that the aides — Karl Rove, the president’s senior adviser, and I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, the vice president’s chief of staff — “had at best misled” him about their role in the disclosure of former CIA operative Valerie Plame’s identity.

Well it's nice to hear someone admit what the majority of us knew/thought to be true. I would anticipate I lot more of these stories once Bush slinks off into the sunset. I only wish one of these Republican "Patriots" had the courage to do it when it matters.

tigerdave
27 May 2008, 10:09 PM
Former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan whacks Bush, White House in a surprisingly scathing memoir (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html)

http://images.politico.com/global/080527_mcclellan.jpg
Snitch



Well it's nice to hear someone admit what the majority of us knew/thought to be true. I would anticipate I lot more of these stories once Bush slinks off into the sunset. I only wish one of these Republican "Patriots" had the courage to do it when it matters.

Not saying he's lying necessarily, but how much of his "revelations" are just to peddle his book?

Dirt McGirt
27 May 2008, 10:24 PM
Not saying he's lying necessarily, but how much of his "revelations" are just to peddle his book?
I certainly question his motivations( and character but better late then never) at coming out now with this but I would suspect if the administration had a case of libel then they would go after him in court. Think Jose Canseco's book and MLB. Where there is smoke there is fire.

JaredSS07
27 May 2008, 11:53 PM
Former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan whacks Bush, White House in a surprisingly scathing memoir (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html)

http://images.politico.com/global/080527_mcclellan.jpg
Snitch



Well it's nice to hear someone admit what the majority of us knew/thought to be true. I would anticipate I lot more of these stories once Bush slinks off into the sunset. I only wish one of these Republican "Patriots" had the courage to do it when it matters.


http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/Sour%20Grapes.jpg

tigerdave
28 May 2008, 12:42 AM
Obama's misspeaking excused away as a simple honest mistake. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/27/rnc-hits-obama-over-auschwitz-claim/)

No wonder the Clintons think folks are out to get them, Hillary got raked over the coals for a similar "misspeaking". Yet Obama's exaggeration is just a mistake.

ToonUSA
28 May 2008, 01:32 AM
Obama's misspeaking excused away as a simple honest mistake. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/27/rnc-hits-obama-over-auschwitz-claim/)

No wonder the Clintons think folks are out to get them, Hillary got raked over the coals for a similar "misspeaking". Yet Obama's exaggeration is just a mistake.

Exaggeration? It was a flat out lie.

So he misplaced his great uncle by about 500 miles and in a different country? He knew not many people would know much of the real place his great uncle liberated so he had to lie and throw out the big name of Auschwitz to try and draw attention to it.

And people think he is some sort of a messiah. He's a smoke and mirrors crock is what he is.

colinh9
28 May 2008, 02:27 AM
Exaggeration? It was a flat out lie.

So he misplaced his great uncle by about 500 miles and in a different country? He knew not many people would know much of the real place his great uncle liberated so he had to lie and throw out the big name of Auschwitz to try and draw attention to it.

And people think he is some sort of a messiah. He's a smoke and mirrors crock is what he is.

So you really think he would deliberately lie about something like that? With the MSM the way it is, with the news cycles the way they are? These things can ruin a campaign because of dumbasses who buy into it. You work extreme hours in a campaign, sometimes getting a few hours of sleep if lucky every night. Auschwitz is a huge name, no doubt. This
was a family story that might have been exaggerated to him or he was absolutely exhausted and said a name that sounded familiar in his brain.

The funniest part to me is, that John McCain on a NUMBER of occasions has mistaken Sunni and Shia, Al Qaeda and their relationship with Iran, and other SERIOUS issues within the area he is supposed to be the foremost expert on. Somehow that is less relevant than Obama's slip-up today.

******** it man, even if Obama did lie, it still shows the RNC priorities.

So Scott McClellan comes out with some comments today. First off, this guy is trying to promote his book. These things have been said by so many former members of this administration, by those within the CIA, by those within the State department. Look this administration might have truly believed Iraq had WMD, had links to Al-Qaeda. Those within the intelligence community really didn't. But when the administration is hell bent on a War in Iraq, well they are going to resort to propaganda and other topics. A great interview on this subject, and there are so many former CIA agents that I can and will link to, is Pillar's.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/interviews/pillar.html
Do you remember what were they talking about, more specific than just "We're looking for a link"?

This has come out of things like articles in The Weekly Standard and so on. It's basically laundry lists of raw reporting in which if you make certain inferences. There's some kind of connection. There was a phone call made, or there was a meeting held. Indeed, there were some meetings held back early in the 1990s between individuals associated with the Saddam regime [and] individuals associated with Al Qaeda. They were mainly in the nature of feeling each other out, certainly nothing that came close to an alliance or a sponsorship or cooperative relationship.

But in the world of international terrorism, ... it's possible to link just about anyone to just about anyone else. If you dig hard enough for enough circumstantial reporting, meetings, phone calls, names that come up in the same breath, travel to the same place at about the same time, you and I could be seen to have a relationship, probably, if someone worked hard enough at linking us through such things like that.

That's very different from forming an analytic judgment about what is the nature of the relationship we had. ... It becomes very easy to use raw reporting to try to make the case that there is a substantial relationship, losing sight of the fact that relationships can be ones of suspicion or even competition, as well as ones of cooperation. In the case of the one we're talking about, Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, [it] was more the former: suspicion of feeling each other out.

So we're talking about the difficulty of objective analysis in the face of policy-makers who already have their minds made up? ...

The ideal model, the proper relationship, is one in which the intelligence community focuses on certain subjects, either because the policy-maker is interested in the subjects -- that is, not particular lines of argument -- or because in the judgment of the intelligence officers, these are important issues that could affect or threaten U.S. national interests. Once they choose those topics by either of those criteria, they take them wherever the evidence and the analysis takes them without regard to particular policy references.

That's the ideal textbook model. When policy-makers make a decision first, then use intelligence to support the decision, that basically stands the model upside down.

So many others within the Counter Terrorism unit and within the CIA saying similar things. Cheney for christ sake showed up at the CIA headquarters to monitor progress on the State report. Vice President's NEVER do this. Of course he was influencing them with his power, gaging if they would support him and the administration in their effort to rid the world of Saddam. Cheney might very well have believed Iraq was the biggest threat in the world but they lied and used information they knew had no true weight.
For those that have not seen this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

It's absolutely fantastic.

I pose this question to those in favor with a war in Iran: why isn't the right wing going after Pakinstan? Why, when they supported the Taliban before 9/11? Why, when in their northwest corner the Taliban is still hiding to this day, without any repercussions whatsoever? Why doesn't the Bush administration immediately bomb this area?

Why wasn't there a CIA State Report on Iraq? When there are state reports on almost every other country, when we had already been in a war with the damn country?

Look these are no more than mere questions. I just want what you think is the honest answer.

You call Obama an outright lier for misspeaking ONCE, yet you defend the Bush administration for lying on many accounts, defend the McCain campaign for remarks made. Just doesn't equate.

tigerdave
28 May 2008, 02:50 AM
So you really think he would deliberately lie about something like that? With the MSM the way it is, with the news cycles the way they are?

If the MSM hadn't hand-chosen him as the neo-Dem Messiah, I'd tend to agree with that. But you must admit that the MSM has been far harder on McCain and Clinton than they have been on Obama, and they've been about a year behind the work of the right-wing talking heads like Hannity and Limbaugh when it comes to Obama, in the hopes that it doesn't taint their desired candidate. The fact of the matter is that Obama can pretty much do no wrong as far as the MSM is concerned.

You call Obama an outright lier for misspeaking ONCE...

Here's 67 other instances of "misspeaking" for you to chew on... (http://savagepolitics.com/?page_id=326)

And some more gaffes from "the intellectual one" (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/21/barack-obama-gaffe-machine/)

Dirt McGirt
28 May 2008, 12:59 PM
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/Sour%20Grapes.jpg
Somebody rep Jared for me. lol

tigerdave
28 May 2008, 02:36 PM
Somebody rep Jared for me. lol

Covered.

And just because I know the 'Bush is a liar too' line is coming because of those 80-odd misspeaks I posted of Obama's, I never said he wasn't stupid/lying/etc. But this goes to show that Obama, despite claming to want change in the way politics are done, is the quintessential politician, saying whatever is convenient at the time to try and get himself elected.

ToonUSA
28 May 2008, 04:18 PM
So you really think he would deliberately lie about something like that? With the MSM the way it is, with the news cycles the way they are? These things can ruin a campaign because of dumbasses who buy into it. You work extreme hours in a campaign, sometimes getting a few hours of sleep if lucky every night. Auschwitz is a huge name, no doubt. This
was a family story that might have been exaggerated to him or he was absolutely exhausted and said a name that sounded familiar in his brain.
Funny, when President Bush misspeaks you don't give him the benefit of the doubt of being "tired." What do you mean by with the news cycles the way they are? The MSM is in the tank for Obama and I first saw his lies on TV, not reading about it on the internet. Do you think they edited the footage?

The funniest part to me is, that John McCain on a NUMBER of occasions has mistaken Sunni and Shia, Al Qaeda and their relationship with Iran, and other SERIOUS issues within the area he is supposed to be the foremost expert on. Somehow that is less relevant than Obama's slip-up today.
Care to link to a videoclip or 2? I don't think misspeaking when talking about the Sunnis and Shias and telling an outright lie in relation to a family story are comparable.

******** it man, even if Obama did lie, it still shows the RNC priorities.
So you support someone who will just flat out lie about things? How can you possibly try and turn this around on the RNC?

So Scott McClellan comes out with some comments today. First off, this guy is trying to promote his book. These things have been said by so many former members of this administration, by those within the CIA, by those within the State department. Look this administration might have truly believed Iraq had WMD, had links to Al-Qaeda. Those within the intelligence community really didn't. But when the administration is hell bent on a War in Iraq, well they are going to resort to propaganda and other topics. A great interview on this subject, and there are so many former CIA agents that I can and will link to, is Pillar's.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/interviews/pillar.html
Do you really not believe Iraq has never been involved with WMDs?

I pose this question to those in favor with a war in Iran: why isn't the right wing going after Pakinstan? Why, when they supported the Taliban before 9/11? Why, when in their northwest corner the Taliban is still hiding to this day, without any repercussions whatsoever? Why doesn't the Bush administration immediately bomb this area?
I don't think anyone is in favor of going to war with Iran unless necessary, Colin. So you want us to just go and bomb a sovereign nation because the Taliban is hiding in the hills. Do you not think the US has the wheels in motion trying to get these guys?

You call Obama an outright lier for misspeaking ONCE, yet you defend the Bush administration for lying on many accounts, defend the McCain campaign for remarks made. Just doesn't equate.
What about the 57 states? Or the numerous times Dave has linked. Check your facts Colin.

Dirt McGirt
28 May 2008, 05:54 PM
Covered.

And just because I know the 'Bush is a liar too' line is coming because of those 80-odd misspeaks I posted of Obama's, I never said he wasn't stupid/lying/etc. But this goes to show that Obama, despite claming to want change in the way politics are done, is the quintessential politician, saying whatever is convenient at the time to try and get himself elected.So the real question is do you want a 70 year old senior citizen to continue the failed polices of the previous administration and further weaken this country's military, economy, and international standing? Or do you want to go in a more positive direction and try and cut out all the partisan bs that renders Washington ineffective,get America moving forward, focus on squashing the Taliban, extricate ourselves from an Iraqi civil war, begin ending our reliance on Arab oil, and balance the budget? The choice is easy. Maybe it would be easier for a lot of Americans if Obama was 100% white and had a last name of Smith but it's time for middle America to look beyond the surface and pay attention to the details.

If you don't know what Obama stands for it's only because you don't want to know. I find it hard to believe a bunch of rightwing soccer dorks can find the most obscure stats on some unknown Russian striker no one has ever heard of yet claims to not know one thing the leading Presidential candidates platform and then use their own ignorance as a reason not to vote for said candidate. Your argument is illogical considering Barrack has written two books and maintains a website with his platform and clearly explained and outlined and it's even available for download.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

I mean can you Replicans stop lying just once? you don't know how funny to me that you use Micheal Savage and Mary Maitlan to make your point. What's next Bill O'Rielly and Rush with Ann Coulter in the bullpen. Real intellectual heavyweights.:p ( I would expect that from ToonUSA but not you)

JaredSS07
28 May 2008, 06:24 PM
The choice is easy. Maybe it would be easier for a lot of Americans if Obama was 100% white and had a last name of Smith but it's time for middle America to look beyond the surface and pay attention to the details.

HAHAHAHAHA

I was going to write an actual response but since you have just proven that there is no point, I won't waste my time.