Political Argument Arena!!!

[Dirt McGirt]

This took me about the time it took me to type (all of 5 seconds)"why do rangers fans have an Israeli flags?"

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070802125452AAvvhdj


As you know, Rangers supporters are generally Protestant and identify themselves with loyalists and unionists. Celtic supporters are generally Catholic and identify themselves with Irish republicanism. Each side copies the relevant flags and symbols used in Northern Ireland.

I haven't seen the South Africa flag being flown in loyalist areas supporters and I'd be very suprised if they did - I've seen it flown several times in republican areas - are you sure you're not mistaking it for one of the loyalist paramiltary flags?

The Palestinian flag is flown in republican areas because people in those areas identify with the struggle of the Palestinians. Loyalist areas fly the Israeli flag in response to this for annoyance value.

BTW this brought about a very ironic situation a few years ago. Combat 18, the British fascist and racist organisation, support the loyalists and have tried unsuccessfully to organise themselves here. They objected strongly to the Israeli flags because their ideology is also anti-semitic!

Google Search Results (http://www.google.com/search?q=why+do+rangers+fans+have+an+isreli+flag&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

[Dirt McGirt]

Let me get this right...Rangers fans are anti Israel and they only fly the Israeli flag because they are anti PLO.....yeah this makes complete sense.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/08/football.race

Yet the Old Firm fans have stepped on to the international stage in their ongoing quest to hate each other more. The latest flag of choice among Rangers fans is Israeli. This has nothing to do with the fact that one of the club's founder members was a man called Moses McNeil and everything to do with the positive reception the Israeli government's crackdown on Palestinians has been getting in certain quarters of Belfast.

'The IRA and the republicans are flying PLO flags, so we'll fly Israeli flags,' explained another fan. 'Plus, we need a government here like the Israelis. They don't mess, and they don't care about world opinion.'

And sure enough, down at the other end Celtic fans were arriving in tea towels tied up like Arab robes and waving Palestinian flags. 'Their struggle is the same as the Irish struggle,' said Martin Flynn who is from the Dennistoun area of Glasgow. 'There is nothing sectarian about this. I have Protestant friends who come to support Celtic.'

You're still doing it wrong. This is old news homie. Where you been? As far as the political argument I don't like clubs that have a fascist or ultra ring wing element associated with them. I never said anything about Northern Ireland, Celtic, Loyalist or any of that other crap. Rangers FC have a hardcore ultra right wing element that support their club that's a fact that you cannot deny.

[BayernWake]

Irrelevant comment:

If Munich has taught us anything, it's that the Israelis are badass.

Please continue.

[ToonUSA]

What's Celtic got to do with anything?


Just asking what your thoughts are on them since you're so staunchly anti-Rangers for their fan behavior when Celtic is no better. Would you have the same comments if Celtic were in the final?

[Dirt McGirt]

Just asking what your thoughts are on them since you're so staunchly anti-Rangers for their fan behavior when Celtic is no better. Would you have the same comments if Celtic were in the final?I don't condone any sort of bigotry and hate from either side. I don't like Rangers FC for a variety of reasons but mainly because I detest everything that club has come to represent in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Also as a African-American I strongly identify with many of Northern Irish Catholics struggles against bigotry, oppression and injustice(something I've come to learn is reciprocated many Catholics as well).

I'm also fiercely anti-fascist/nazi going back to my early teenage years in the DC punk scene and a large segment of Rangers supporters happen to be ultra right wing fascist and racist scum ,which is well documented and is also 180 degrees from my views. I don't believe all Rangers FC fans are bad and it seems the club(s) is making steps to distance itself from the sectarian nonsense which is a positive.

With all that being said if Celtic had played a similar style of football I would have also called it anti-football which started the whole discussion with Toon3 to begin with.

[tigerdave]

Irrelevant comment:

If Munich has taught us anything, it's that the Israelis are badass.

Please continue.

Must spread rep, etc.

[JaredSS07]

Doesn't the majority of clubs in Europe have an ultra right wing group associated with them?

[Dirt McGirt]

Doesn't the majority of clubs in Europe have an ultra right wing group associated with them?No not necessarily. Maybe in UK but I think every club is different but some of the clubs that have historically had larger fascist/right wing ultra segments are Chelsea, Real Madrid, Rangers and Lazio.

List of some clubs with strong anti-fascist supporters group (http://anarchistsoccer.org/?q=node/77)

http://anarchistsoccer.org/?q=node/11

Lazio's Irriducibili, Roma's Boys Roma and TDR, Paris Saint Germain's Boulogne Boys, Real Madrids Ultras Sur, Dinamo Zagreb's Bad Blue Boys are known for displaying Celtic crosses and Swastikas. In Spain, the term ultra is understood primarily as ultraderechista (far rightist), and some Spanish ultra groups use Nazi symbols such as the runic SS logo. However, other ultra groups, such as Livornos Brigate Autonome Livornesi,Carrarese, A.C. Arezzo's Fossa, Pisa Calcio's Ultras, Olympique de Marseilles Curva-Massilia and Celtics Green Brigade, Hapoel Tel-Aviv's Ultras Hapoel are known for displaying flags with red stars, hammer and sickles, the anarchy symbol or images of Che Guevara. Fans of Ajax Amsterdam often display the Star of David and Israeli flags, and regularly chant "Joden! Joden!" (Dutch for "Jews! Jews!"), in reference to the club's Jewish roots. In Turkey, Beşiktaş JK's ultra group Çarşı has an A in its logo that is similar to the anarchy symbol.

Long before I become solely a footie fan back in the mid 90's I was involved with some anti-fascist/anti-racist groups as a youth and although I no longer approve (and regret) of some of the methods we used in the past to get our message across, I still believe in that message and lend my support to all nonviolent groups that share those beliefs.

[Russell1892]

Doesn't the majority of clubs in Europe have an ultra right wing group associated with them?

I think a lot do but not all. All clubs have their arse-hole fans... I've heard racist things said at SJP too (not often though and usually in a pathetic attempt at being funny).... granted thats not the same as having a group like Lazio are famous for. Never heard a racist chant at SJP though. Apparently the fans in poland are bad for having far right views and they're scheduled to host games in Euro 2012. It wouldn't exactly surprise me if Zenit St Petersburg had a racist fan contingent though, as Eastern Europe in general has been quite bad for abuse of black players etc.

Regarding the picture above its clearly the Nazi salute and if you look at the score board as to who Rangers are playing that seems to me to be the reason why. Its not to say that Rangers fans have far-right views... just that some think its "funny" to make the Nazi salute to Israelis. Thats not in any way an attempt to defend them as it should be pretty clear to anyone that the holocaust was nothing to joke about, and thats a sick joke to make.

Celtic and Rangers are a whole different mess anyway. A nice example of the problems religion can create. I'm not pro or anti either by the way.

[Dirt McGirt]

When I started following the Toon back in the early 90's after meeting a couple of Geordies while in the army in Germany, I didn't realize or understand the political undertones involved in supporting a club. Fortunately I find no conflict with my personal political beliefs and my support for the club I've grown to love(and hate). You can't expect to fill a stadium (anywhere in the world) and not have a few bad apples in the bunch, it just the clubs that have a historical presence of racist and fascist support that I despise.

[BayernWake]

Rangers are also racist because they don't start Beasley.





[/joke]

[Toon³]

I don't condone any sort of bigotry and hate from either side. I don't like Rangers FC for a variety of reasons but mainly because I detest everything that club has come to represent in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Also as a African-American I strongly identify with many of Northern Irish Catholics struggles against bigotry, oppression and injustice(something I've come to learn is reciprocated many Catholics as well).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_%281972%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_Bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Deal_barracks_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bishopsgate_bombing

Yup, sure is nice to see you identfiying with such amazing freedom fighers....

Also it is really strange that you are so pro-catholic and yet support Newcastle who are strongly protestant.

[JaredSS07]

As an American with no experience living in Europe, I find no reason to involve myself with the poltical/racial/religious/local undertones of a club. I think it makes no sense to love or hate a club because of NSR reasons unless you experience it firsthand.

Sure I would hate to lose to Sunderland, but to me, Sp*rs games are more important. I treat Sunderland as a sports rivalry not a local one. I have no reason to hate Mackems and try to make sure I never pretend to, since I don't think I have ever met one.

[Dirt McGirt]

Yup, sure is nice to see you identfiying with such amazing freedom fighers....

Also it is really strange that you are so pro-catholic and yet support Newcastle who are strongly protestant.
Toon3 1 Strawman 0

Being sympathetic (and seeing some parallels in my own peoples struggle) to the plight of Catholics in NI doesn't making me a supporter of any terrorist active. I don't condone violence of any kind in except in self defense and I certainly don't condone killing innocents. Both sides have had a hand in the violence and to ignore that fact would be unfair.

I'm not Pro Catholic or Anti Protestant (I'm Presbyterian) I'm just anti-fascist and anti-racist. If anyone actually read the New Testament they would realize all this violence in Christ's name is ridiculous.

[Russell1892]

I wouldn't exactly call Newcastle "strongly protestant", there's a protestant history to England... so you could say that about any English club. I'm an atheist so I guess that means I'll have to f*ck off too. Shit. I'm guessing Toon3 is protestant though.

Its more fair to say religion doesn't really matter at Newcastle... unlike say Celtic or Rangers.

I may be wrong but MOST of what Dirt's said is why he's against Rangers... then people assume he's pro-celtic. But hell he doesn't need me to speak for him.

Unfortunately the debate with Celtic/Rangers (as in this case) always goes from football, non-football, insulting each other, Northern Ireland, the IRA occasionally via a detour of Irish history.

[Toon³]

Toon3 1 Strawman 0

Being sympathetic (and seeing some parallels in my own peoples struggle) to the plight of Catholics in NI doesn't making me a supporter of any terrorist active. I don't condone violence of any kind in except in self defense and I certainly don't condone killing innocents. Both sides have had a hand in the violence and to ignore that fact would be unfair.

I'm not Pro Catholic or Anti Protestant (I'm Presbyterian) I'm just anti-fascist and anti-racist. If anyone actually read the New Testament they would realize all this violence in Christ's name is ridiculous.

What exactly his the plight of catholics in Northern Ireland? At no point have they been denied freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Their arguement that Northern Ireland should be part of the ROI is their view. The majority of Northern Ireland is Unionist and wants to continue being part of the UK and it always has been. Your sympathies are with a group of people who seem to think its ok to force the majority of a country to live the way their see fit and also felt it ok not only to start a campaign of violence not only in Northern Ireland but also in the UK claiming victims who had nothing at all to do with the issue.

[ToonUSA]

I don't condone any sort of bigotry and hate from either side. I don't like Rangers FC for a variety of reasons but mainly because I detest everything that club has come to represent in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Also as a African-American I strongly identify with many of Northern Irish Catholics struggles against bigotry, oppression and injustice(something I've come to learn is reciprocated many Catholics as well).

I'm also fiercely anti-fascist/nazi going back to my early teenage years in the DC punk scene and a large segment of Rangers supporters happen to be ultra right wing fascist and racist scum ,which is well documented and is also 180 degrees from my views. I don't believe all Rangers FC fans are bad and it seems the club(s) is making steps to distance itself from the sectarian nonsense which is a positive.

With all that being said if Celtic had played a similar style of football I would have also called it anti-football which started the whole discussion with Toon3 to begin with.

But you're pro-terrorist when it fits your sympathies?

If you condemn Rangers and "a large segment" of their fans for what you perceive as them being "right wing fascist and racist scum" shouldn't you condemn "a large segment" of the Celtic supporters for being the same but in the opposite direction on the political scale from Rangers?

FWIW my Grandfather was born in and spent most of his childhood in Ireland. He taught me the IRA wasn't exactly a badge of honor to wear around.

[tigerdave]

Rangers are also racist because they don't start Beasley.





[/joke]

I was going to say, I wondered what Beasley, Cousin and Darcheville thought of the Rangers fans...

[Toon³]

I was going to say, I wondered what Beasley, Cousin and Darcheville thought of the Rangers fans...

What would they have to think about?

[Dirt McGirt]

But you're pro-terrorist when it fits your sympathies?

If you condemn Rangers and "a large segment" of their fans for what you perceive as them being "right wing fascist and racist scum" shouldn't you condemn "a large segment" of the Celtic supporters for being the same but in the opposite direction on the political scale from Rangers?

FWIW my Grandfather was born in and spent most of his childhood in Ireland. He taught me the IRA wasn't exactly a badge of honor to wear around.Where did I say I support the IRA or Celtic for that matter? You and Toon3 keep bring up Celtic,IRA, the Troubles, terrorists, all other manner of bullshit to try justify the Huns behavior not me. Seriously you guys got nothing.:D

Why would I condemn anyone for being the opposite of right wing fascist and racist scum?? I keep hearing the same strawman arguments over and over. I don't like clubs with large portions of right wing ultras, I'm anti racist, anti-fascist and I only believe in violence in self defense.Tell me again why this is bad?