Political Argument Arena!!!

[ToonUSA]

I've been ballertastic, as they say in my hood.

I'm backing no one in this election because I'm still bitter about '04. I was going to vote Colbert if he actually showed up on any ballots, but alas, the man brought Stephen down. :(

Do you have Seattle MLS fever yet? ;)

So are you going to vote?

[Howard Zinn]

Zinn...you do know Colbert was never serious about running for president? Not only because he'd never win...but because he has absolutely no interest in a political career.

And you'd really vote for someone who has 0 political experience? I love Colbert, I think he's brilliant. But I'd never vote for him for president. Luckily he's going to stay a comedian, so I'll never have to make that decision.


I'd trust Colbert to run this country before I would trust any of the asshats the Dems and Repubs push on me. At the very least, he would be more entertaining than any President we've ever had.

So are you going to vote?

I might vote Nader again (assuming he is running). I also thought about voting for McCain just to spite the Dems, but he'll already win my state anyway so it's kind of pointless.

[ToonUSA]

I'd trust Colbert to run this country before I would trust any of the asshats the Dems and Repubs push on me. At the very least, he would be more entertaining than any President we've ever had.



I might vote Nader again (assuming he is running). I also thought about voting for McCain just to spite the Dems, but he'll already win my state anyway so it's kind of pointless.

O good, then I won't have to hear you bitching about how you dislike the President's policies, becasue if you don't vote you're what the Athenians would call an idiot.

[Howard Zinn]

O good, then I won't have to hear you bitching about how you dislike the President's policies, becasue if you don't vote you're what the Athenians would call an idiot.


Ummm, I did vote in '04. :confused:

I'm just sick of the bullshit to be honest. Especially when people like you say I'm an idiot if I don't vote, but I know that my vote won't count because you only get two options. What if I don't like Obama or McCain? Then what? Well, I guess I'm an idiot. :rolleyes:

[ToonUSA]

Ummm, I did vote in '04. :confused:

I'm just sick of the bullshit to be honest. Especially when people like you say I'm an idiot if I don't vote, but I know that my vote won't count because you only get two options. What if I don't like Obama or McCain? Then what? Well, I guess I'm an idiot. :rolleyes:

If you were so inclined you could donate to your candidate, volunteer to help out, and try and not make the result in your state a foregone conclusion. If you don't like either that's your problem. McCain wasn't my first choice but he represents my beliefs closer than Obama does. Thus, he gets the nod.

[Howard Zinn]

If you were so inclined you could donate to your candidate, volunteer to help out, and try and not make the result in your state a foregone conclusion. If you don't like either that's your problem. McCain wasn't my first choice but he represents my beliefs closer than Obama does. Thus, he gets the nod.


So, you'll vote with someone you don't even agree with, but I'm the one with the problem. Yeah.

[ToonUSA]

So, you'll vote with someone you don't even agree with, but I'm the one with the problem. Yeah.

Where did I say I didn't agree with him.

You don't have to agree with a candidate on everything for you to vote for him. Just the things that are important to you.

Not voting is definitely not the answer, you know what don't vote. Will just give my vote more power.

[JaredSS07]

ToonUSA, why support Kosovo?

[ToonUSA]

ToonUSA, why support Kosovo?

Why not?

The Kosovar Albanians are a 92% minority in Kosovo and have been raped, beaten, and murdered for the last 100 years. When they were placed under UN administration they worked hard to build their own democratic institutions seperate from Belgrade, and now they look capable of the self-rule many wanted from the beginning. Tough shit Serbia and Russia don't like it.

Are you for or against Kosovo's independence?

[JaredSS07]

Why not?

The Kosovar Albanians are a 92% minority in Kosovo and have been raped, beaten, and murdered for the last 100 years. When they were placed under UN administration they worked hard to build their own democratic institutions seperate from Belgrade, and now they look capable of the self-rule many wanted from the beginning. Tough shit Serbia and Russia don't like it.

Are you for or against Kosovo's independence?

I’m not sure.

During Clinton's war, I was against Kosovo, yet not for Milosevic. I won’t defend a dictator or his ethnic war, but I also don’t agree with a group trying to takeover/take back an area from a legitimate country based on ethnic reasons.

It is a big problem that Kosovo has switched hands so many times. No one group or country has any legit claim to it. This is a conflict that goes way beyond the past 100 years. To claim that is the relevant time period to use in the decision of who gets Kosovo is just as crazy as Serbs pointing to 1389. Both the Serbs and the Albanians have committed awful crimes against each other, so I can’t take the “Albanian victim” side.

I have a basic problem with a group declaring independence based on their ethnic percentage or ethnic percentage 1,000 years ago. What if a group of Mexicans decide to take Texas back or the Spanish want Florida?

[tigerdave]

Why not?

The Kosovar Albanians are a 92% minority in Kosovo and have been raped, beaten, and murdered for the last 100 years. When they were placed under UN administration they worked hard to build their own democratic institutions seperate from Belgrade, and now they look capable of the self-rule many wanted from the beginning. Tough shit Serbia and Russia don't like it.

Are you for or against Kosovo's independence?

Serbia doesn't like it because Kosovo's been a part of "Serbia" in its various forms for over 700 years. That's understandable, what if California just decided to secede from the US? Not to mention the precedent it sets for quasi-autonomous areas around the world like Kashmir, Chechnya, Catalonia, Scotland and the Basque area of Spain.

I'm all for freedom and independence, don't get me wrong. I'm glad they declared independence if that's what they felt was right. But they need to take stock of the consequences. "Tough shit" only galvanizes their "enemy" against them.

[ToonUSA]

I have a basic problem with a group declaring independence based on their ethnic percentage or ethnic percentage 1,000 years ago. What if a group of Mexicans decide to take Texas back or the Spanish want Florida?

Texas and Florida were ceded to the United States. Kosovo wasn't ceded to Serbia by the population of Kosovo as far as I know. There's nothing like being a second class citizen in a territory where you're family has lived for hundreds of years despite being the majority.

[ToonUSA]

Serbia doesn't like it because Kosovo's been a part of "Serbia" in its various forms for over 700 years. That's understandable, what if California just decided to secede from the US? Not to mention the precedent it sets for quasi-autonomous areas around the world like Kashmir, Chechnya, Catalonia, Scotland and the Basque area of Spain.

I'm all for freedom and independence, don't get me wrong. I'm glad they declared independence if that's what they felt was right. But they need to take stock of the consequences. "Tough shit" only galvanizes their "enemy" against them.

I agree with Condoleeza Rice's assertion that Kosovo is a special case. I don't buy the California bit because as soon as we begin ethnic cleansing and horrible treatment of the majority of our population then I'd probably be pushing for independence as well. What claim do Kashmir, Chechnya, Catalonia, Scotland (??), and Basque have for independence in 2008?

[JaredSS07]

Texas and Florida were ceded to the United States. Kosovo wasn't ceded to Serbia by the population of Kosovo as far as I know. There's nothing like being a second class citizen in a territory where you're family has lived for hundreds of years despite being the majority.

Texas is an odd situation and probably a bad example. California was not ceded to the US by the local population. Our army was sitting in Mexico City and we made them sign a treaty giving us their northern lands. To make us feel less guilty of a land grab war, we paid them $15mil.

Regardless of the examples, Kosovo Albanians are capitalizing on the current post-WWII liberal (no, not in a Dem vs GOP sense) mentality by claiming to be victims. The Kosovo Albanians have not always been second class citizens and have caused atrocities before. Just because they were the underdog in the "Kosovo War" against Milosevic doesn't give them the right to do whatever they want.

[tigerdave]

What claim do Kashmir, Chechnya, Catalonia, Scotland (??), and Basque have for independence in 2008?

They all have separatist groups devoted to breaking from their current nations and they have been generally trying to secure varying levels of independence for, I dunno....ever? They could just look at Kosovo and be like...okay, we're independent now so suck it India/Pakistan, Russia, Spain, England and Spain. But that doesn't really accomplish anything productive.

[ToonUSA]

They all have separatist groups devoted to breaking from their current nations and they have been generally trying to secure varying levels of independence for, I dunno....ever? They could just look at Kosovo and be like...okay, we're independent now so suck it India/Pakistan, Russia, Spain, England and Spain. But that doesn't really accomplish anything productive.

I know who they are, my question is what's their claim? Why would they be considered a special case as Kosovo is?

[tigerdave]

I know who they are, my question is what's their claim? Why would they be considered a special case as Kosovo is?

Whether they're a special case is irrelevant in their minds, is my point. All they need to see is a province of another country declaring its sovereignty due to cultural and/or political differences, and that will be enough to spark more cries for secession in those other areas. Why do you think Spain was so quick to decry Kosovo's declaration and announce support for Serbia? Because Spain doesn't want to lose Catalonia or the Basque region, and to support the Kosovars would have been seen as tacit consent for the Basques and Catalans to follow suit.

[ToonUSA]

Whether they're a special case is irrelevant in their minds, is my point. All they need to see is a province of another country declaring its sovereignty due to cultural and/or political differences, and that will be enough to spark more cries for secession in those other areas. Why do you think Spain was so quick to decry Kosovo's declaration and announce support for Serbia? Because Spain doesn't want to lose Catalonia or the Basque region, and to support the Kosovars would have been seen as tacit consent for the Basques and Catalans to follow suit.

Same with Romania with their Hungarian diaspora in Transylvania, but this is rather stating the obvious.

These provinces must know they won't get the support Kosovo got based on the fact Kosovo's plight became a global story during the break up of Yugoslavia. These nations haven't had anything of the sort, thus why I think any cries for Independence from them will fall on deaf ears. Of course, they see it as a green light because they are radicals.

[tigerdave]

Same with Romania with their Hungarian diaspora in Transylvania, but this is rather stating the obvious.

These provinces must know they won't get the support Kosovo got based on the fact Kosovo's plight became a global story during the break up of Yugoslavia. These nations haven't had anything of the sort, thus why I think any cries for Independence from them will fall on deaf ears. Of course, they see it as a green light because they are radicals.

That may be. You can't throw a "special" label on it or put the situation in a vacuum because you know and I know the world doesn't work that way. There are going to be regional and/or global repercussions to any localized action of this magnitude.

I'm not saying Kosovo's wrong to break away. If they want to do that, more power to them. I'm just putting more food for thought.

[Russell1892]

This thread is class haha, just discovered it.

C'mon boys did you not learn life's greatest lesson from supporting NUFC... things are never Black or White - they're both.

Obama/Clinton or McCain?

and please don't bitch about the price of gas/petrol its $10 a gallon over here.