Are Anti-Immigrant Views Anti-Christian?

[jmarquez1976]

Are Anti-Immigrant Views Anti-Christian?

Not being Christian myself... I am not going to claim that I am an expert. From what I remember from Bible Study, Jesus tended to embrace the downtrodden, the scapegoats...and may have criticized some Rabbies' "Libertarian" policies. Can anybody cite the correct passage?


Anyway I could see the discussing morphing into the nature of Chrisitianity. In other words... should "Christianness" be subject to a "What Would Jesus Do" or is "Christianness" better defined by the collective views (or "average views") of today's Reverends & Congregations.


Any thoughts?

[Val1]

Yes, as to how it's playing out.

As critical as I have been of Pres Bush, he's dead on for immigration. There is a strong strain in Christianity on the need to follow the legal laws of the land, the whole "render unto Caesar what is is Caesar's".

So much of the immigration debate is anecdotal that it's hard to talk seriously, but there are way too many illegal immigrants in the US right now. I don't think they pose a security risk, but that is another conversation. So, W's got it right. Let's figure out a way to make them legal.

I'm no fan of Bush in general, but he's pretty consistent on trying to find a WWJD approach to his governance.

The scapegoating and meanness in regards to immigrants, and the House bill making it a crime to work with immigrants (often the most abused and vulnerable sector of the societies they're living in) is anti-Christian. The prophet Micah asks: The Lord your God has shown you what is good. And what does the Lord require? But to act justly [or do justice, depending on the translation], to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

There is NO mercy in this anti-immigration wave. Us liberal Christians may have finally received the incentive from which we're going to stand up and take back the mantle long ago ceded to the right. This is gonna be big....

[Norsk Troll]

I'm no fan of Bush in general, but he's pretty consistent on trying to find a WWJD approach to his governance.Does that "J" stand for Jesus or Jihad? Because somehow I doubt that if Jesus had the biggest army in the world, he would have used it to invade another country, killing his own solders and plenty of innocents along the way, to take out a leader that had not actually done anything to him.

GWB wants to keep illegal immigrants in this country, or make them pseudo-legal, because they're a source for cheap labor that helps american businesses make profits. If you think he's doing it because he cares for the migrant workers, than why isn't he doing anything for migrant workers' rights? He wants to make sure they can stay here and work, but he's not going to do anything to improve their working conditions or make sure they get paid appropriately.

[Chicago1871]

Technically, yes. But since when has society fully obeyed the ideals set forth by the Christian religion?

[royalstilton]

The essence of Christianity, of Christian discipleship as a phenomenon, is to become as much like Jesus as possible; the goal is to do exactly as Jesus would do if he were in my or your shoes.

We all start on the journey of following Jesus with many bad habits and ideas about what is good and loving. These must be displaced, usually bit by bit, with God's love ( Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10 ).

It is possible to wrangle over broad or fine points and discuss what this or that means in application ( whether you can fight in a secular war, forex ), but it still comes down to: "take up your cross and follow me". That means being willing to make specific sacrifices for the sake of Christ. What those are and who will be called upon to sacrifice what is not defined exactly. It seems that God's plan (after salvation) varies according to the individual. Not everyone is called to be a missionary in India. But some are.

Wanting people to enter this country legally, as opposed to illegally, is a legitimate viewpoint for a Christian to hold. But I think if you hold to that position, you must be willing to sacrifice something to enable the people who are living in squalor in whatever country to have a standard of living that sustains life. Otherwise, you are ignoring Jesus when he says: "Whatever you did unto the least of these, you did unto me..."

[Chicago1871]

With all this immigration talk, does it mean Paleface is going back to Europe and leave us alone?
You want us to leave the fire water?

[dj43]

Wanting people to enter this country legally, as opposed to illegally, is a legitimate viewpoint for a Christian to hold. But I think if you hold to that position, you must be willing to sacrifice something to enable the people who are living in squalor in whatever country to have a standard of living that sustains life. Otherwise, you are ignoring Jesus when he says: "Whatever you did unto the least of these, you did unto me..."
I agree with all you say here but this country has always made room for immigrants who came here legally. To tell all those who ARE here legally that all of their effort was for nothing by allowing a major amnesty program now is a slap in their face.

To All:
I don't see any "christian" issue in this because this is not an anti-immigrant question, it is an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant issue. Everyone, both Christian and non-Christian alike should support the laws of the land. And if you don't like them, work to change them, not circumvent them.

[jmarquez1976]

I agree with all you say here but this country has always made room for immigrants who came here legally. To tell all those who ARE here legally that all of their effort was for nothing by allowing a major amnesty program now is a slap in their face.

To All:
I don't see any "christian" issue in this because this is not an anti-immigrant question, it is an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant issue. Everyone, both Christian and non-Christian alike should support the laws of the land. And if you don't like them, work to change them, not circumvent them.


So if you had your choice of what to do with those that are here "illegally" (as if any human being could possible be illegal for simply existing) what would you do?

[Metroweenie]

All these kinds of questions are not helped by the fact that Jesus never directed his teachings to those with political power, except when he told them to give power up.

[ForeverRed]

Not only are they anti christian but they are also racist.....

[StrikerCW]

Theres a difference between immigration and illegal alien status. Especially now a days. Sure 80-200 years ago it was different when the country was still being built. Many people alive now would not be here had not illegal immigrants come into the country.

But today there is already beginning to be an overflow of normal people in this country, and cheap, rightless, workers only help to up the unemployment. Why SHOULD we allow them to continue to come other than to, as someone said, help big industry? Our government should help OUR CITIZENS not some cheap labor from elsewhere.

[dj43]

So if you had your choice of what to do with those that are here "illegally" (as if any human being could possible be illegal for simply existing) what would you do?

First of all, we need to define our terms.

ILLEGAL - something that is in violation of the law. When you put " " around the word, it makes me unsure that we are talking about the same thing.

HUMAN EXISTENCE - nothing illegal about that.

As to what to do: Anyone who is found to be in this country illegally should be deported. Period. When you violate a law, there are consequences. One should not expect anything else.

However, there are many people who are in this country illegally that are doing legitimate work. I believe we need a guest worker program for those individuals. They need to show proof of citizenship and pass a background check. And they would need to remain employed for a certain percentage of the time. If they are out of work for 6 months or more, they are no longer needed and should go home.

This guest worker program would not lead directly to automatic citizenship. However, at any time, they could apply for citizenship the same as anyone else.

This is a good way from the thread title but those are my views on this little sidetrack.

[jmarquez1976]

Theres a difference between immigration and illegal alien status. Especially now a days. Sure 80-200 years ago it was different when the country was still being built. Many people alive now would not be here had not illegal immigrants come into the country.

But today there is already beginning to be an overflow of normal people in this country, and cheap, rightless, workers only help to up the unemployment. Why SHOULD we allow them to continue to come other than to, as someone said, help big industry? Our government should help OUR CITIZENS not some cheap labor from elsewhere.


Interesting given that Unemployment Rates have been near historic lows since the mid-1990s. Also noteworthy, without Illegal Immigration...U.S. Population Growth would dip below replacement levels. Particularly problematic if you consider that the U.S. needs a very rapid influx of working age people to contrast the massive generation of rapidly aging Baby Boomers.

[dj43]

Theres a difference between immigration and illegal alien status. Especially now a days. Sure 80-200 years ago it was different when the country was still being built. Many people alive now would not be here had not illegal immigrants come into the country.

But today there is already beginning to be an overflow of normal people in this country, and cheap, rightless, workers only help to up the unemployment. Why SHOULD we allow them to continue to come other than to, as someone said, help big industry? Our government should help OUR CITIZENS not some cheap labor from elsewhere.
I agree.

Where I live this is becoming a wedge issue among the Mexican population itself. The illegals are taking jobs at very low wages, which, though they pay much better than what they could ever dream of in Mexico, it is much less than those jobs have paid to those that were here legally. The result is an overall lowering of wages throughout this largely agricultural area. And moreover, Mexicans, who are here legally, are being made to feel like some sort of traitor if they do not support the cause of their illegal "brothers."

To say this is wrong, is a gross understatement. Just thinking about the fact that being a law-abiding citizen is somehow traitorous show the need for a total re-thinking of this growing problem.

[dj43]

Interesting given that Unemployment Rates have been near historic lows since the mid-1990s. Also noteworthy, without Illegal Immigration...U.S. Population Growth would dip below replacement levels. Particularly problematic if you consider that the U.S. needs a very rapid influx of working age people to contrast the massive generation of rapidly aging Baby Boomers.
link?

[jmarquez1976]

I agree.

Where I live this is becoming a wedge issue among the Mexican population itself. The illegals are taking jobs at very low wages, which, though they pay much better than what they could ever dream of in Mexico, it is much less than those jobs have paid to those that were here legally. The result is an overall lowering of wages throughout this largely agricultural area. And moreover, Mexicans, who are here legally, are being made to feel like some sort of traitor if they do not support the cause of their illegal "brothers."

To say this is wrong, is a gross understatement. Just thinking about the fact that being a law-abiding citizen is somehow traitorous show the need for a total re-thinking of this growing problem.


I will have to disagree...I do believe it is treacherous. Up until 1989, I was Illegal too. How am I any different than my "Illegal" brothers? Just because the Republicans granted my generation of Illegals an Amnesty? It would be grossly unethical, immoral and unjustifiable for me to hold a position that undermines an "Illegal Brother's" right to an opportunity. I hold other Mexicans to that same standard...I don't care if they were born in Mexico, here or if their Great Grandparents were born here. We were all Illegal at some point of our ancestry.

[Chicago1871]

I will have to disagree...I do believe it is treacherous.
Not trying to be an asshole, but "treacherous" and "traitorious" don't mean the same thing. Just wanted to mention that.

[jmarquez1976]

I agree.

Where I live this is becoming a wedge issue among the Mexican population itself. The illegals are taking jobs at very low wages, which, though they pay much better than what they could ever dream of in Mexico, it is much less than those jobs have paid to those that were here legally. The result is an overall lowering of wages throughout this largely agricultural area. And moreover, Mexicans, who are here legally, are being made to feel like some sort of traitor if they do not support the cause of their illegal "brothers."

To say this is wrong, is a gross understatement. Just thinking about the fact that being a law-abiding citizen is somehow traitorous show the need for a total re-thinking of this growing problem.


Now, you bring up another point about the deflationary effect Illegals have on wages. First, I am not in any way for the exploitation of Illegal Immigrants...I would prefer that their social standing could be legitimized and that they could earn a more livable wage.

But lets talk about the Economic Impact of deflationary wages. High School & College Graduation rates in 1950's America were lower than that of the lowest performing ethnicities today. Immigrants raise the bar in America...by lowering the Wages of Quasi Skilled and Unskilled Labor....they give American born kids - with all the opportunities in the world - a huge, huge incentive to get an Education.

While it may true that America's Education Standards are quite low (even lower than Mexico and most developing countries), the fact that we Mass Produce Millions of College Educated people of Average Intelligence....allows us to fuel our IT. R&D and Advanced Service Sector jobs....which is what keeps the U.S. a tad ahead of other competitors on the Global Scene. If not for this we would have already been overrun by other countries that manufacturer & produce better, cheaper than we do.

Even then, U.S. Economic Leadership will be threathened by a China that will be producing 10 of Millions of College Graduates a Year. (They already produce a lot more than we do...although I think we might hold an edge on PHDs).

In the near future...we will need descendants of Illegal Immigrants to also join the College Graduate roles... not just perform lower level jobs.

[jmarquez1976]

Not trying to be an asshole, but "treacherous" and "traitorious" don't mean the same thing. Just wanted to mention that.


Interesting.... Microsoft Word has the same definition for both words. Anyway, I am pretty sure traitorious wasn't a real word until recently.

[jmarquez1976]

link?

Working on it....the Bureau of Labor's Website is extremely slow. Anyway, this table is not perfect, but it shows by State:

> Current Unemployment
> Historical High
> Historical Low


You will note than the vast majority of states.....Current Unemployment is reasonably close to Historical Lows....and very far from Historical highs. And that those Historical Lows are often in the 1990s.

http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm