Gluttony as a Deadly Sin

[spejic]

I wonder why the subject of gluttony is so rarely touched on by those pundits that speak on the moral decay of modern civilization. I mean, if there is anything that is separating the American public from godliness, it is much more likely a preoccupation with dumping your current iPod for a new one with 10GB more memory, or putting a H2 on top of your auto buying list than the knowledge that two gay people somewhere are getting married.

I mean, just look at us. Is there anything that defines America more than the pleasures of consumption? The taking of what someone somewhere needs to give ourselves a little greater gratification? I don't think so.

[SoccerPro843]

If you own all that you ever wanted, how much would you be willing to give up to help other people that need it more? If you were a billionare, how much would you give back to the people that got your career started. How much would you donate to charities? It's easy to say you would give it up to help others, but how many of us actually would? I don't think this is relevant to this thread is it?

[royalstilton]

How much would you donate to charities? It's easy to say you would give it up to help others, but how many of us actually would? I don't think this is relevant to this thread is it?
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i think Bill Gates is a pretty good example of substantial charitable giving, but he doesn't sacrifice much, in my estimation.

[#10 Jersey]

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i think Bill Gates is a pretty good example of substantial charitable giving, but he doesn't sacrifice much, in my estimation.

what does this mean?

[SoccerPro843]

He does give a lot of money, but keeps much more than he gives.

[royalstilton]

what does this mean?
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i think someone raised the question of charitable giving. you can have everything, be able to live without any effective limit on what you can spend, and some might call that gluttony if you indulged yourself. if you did practice that sort of indulgence, but said that you gave millions to charity, would that counterbalance your gluttonous appetite for stuff, if you had billions to start with?

IOW, if you start with 50 billion dollars and give 5 million to charity, you effectively haven't changed your net worth in any appreciable way.

now, if you gave 20 billion dollars to charity, you still would have 30 billion dollars, which is so much money that it would take a lifetime to spend a million dollars a day.

[#10 Jersey]

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i think someone raised the question of charitable giving. you can have everything, be able to live without any effective limit on what you can spend, and some might call that gluttony if you indulged yourself. if you did practice that sort of indulgence, but said that you gave millions to charity, would that counterbalance your gluttonous appetite for stuff, if you had billions to start with?

IOW, if you start with 50 billion dollars and give 5 million to charity, you effectively haven't changed your net worth in any appreciable way.

now, if you gave 20 billion dollars to charity, you still would have 30 billion dollars, which is so much money that it would take a lifetime to spend a million dollars a day.

Wouldn't 5 billion satisfy the tithing requirement. Where does it say in the bible that its not ok to make money?

[spejic]

Wouldn't 5 billion satisfy the tithing requirement.What tithing requirement?Where does it say in the bible that its not ok to make money?
Matthew 6:24
... You cannot serve God and mammon.

Mathew 6:25
Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

Mark 10:24-26
And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:17-22
..And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 21:1-3
And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all.

As you can see from the last one, the point of charity is not to help the poor - it is to seperate yourself from the love of mammon.

"Mammon" is the coolest word ever. If I had a proto-fascist death metal band, all the songs I write would have the word "mammon" in them.

[#10 Jersey]

What tithing requirement?
Matthew 6:24
... You cannot serve God and mammon.

Mathew 6:25
Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

Mark 10:24-26
And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:17-22
..And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 21:1-3
And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all.

As you can see from the last one, the point of charity is not to help the poor - it is to seperate yourself from the love of mammon.

"Mammon" is the coolest word ever. If I had a proto-fascist death metal band, all the songs I write would have the word "mammon" in them.

That's what I thought...a christian concept. I don't think you'll find that in the Torah.

[#10 Jersey]

What tithing requirement?
Matthew 6:24
... You cannot serve God and mammon.

Mathew 6:25
Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

Mark 10:24-26
And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:17-22
..And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 21:1-3
And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all.

As you can see from the last one, the point of charity is not to help the poor - it is to seperate yourself from the love of mammon.

"Mammon" is the coolest word ever. If I had a proto-fascist death metal band, all the songs I write would have the word "mammon" in them.

Well Judaism and some Christian denominations provide for tithing of 10% of income.

[SoccerPro843]

That's what I thought...a christian concept. I don't think you'll find that in the Torah.
You asked; "Where in the Bible does it say that you can't make money?" and he showed you. Now you want to know where in the Torah does it say it. He answered your question about the Christian book, with of course a Christian concept.

[#10 Jersey]

You asked; "Where in the Bible does it say that you can't make money?" and he showed you. Now you want to know where in the Torah does it say it. He answered your question about the Christian book, with of course a Christian concept.

Actually I didn't ask him to find it in the Torah. I indicated that it was not.

Secondly, I didn't ask him to find it in the christian bible, I only said the bible.

The original question wasn't directed only to christians. I wouldn't know the answer from a christian concept and he answered it for me from a christian perspective

But again, the question wasn't posited as a christian one. Are others not allowed on this thread?

[christopher d]

But again, the question wasn't posited as a christian one. Are others not allowed on this thread?
The term "Deadly Sin", as far as I know, is a Christian one.

From this non-Christian's perspective, gluttony is a bad thing in that by hoarding energy (such as capital) or using energy one doesn't have access to (ie, running up credit-card debt) one is disrupting the way that energy flows through one's own life and (often, but not always) impeding that energy's flow through someone else.

The negative ramifications of all this are not of the cosmic variety, but rather quite practical. For instance: gluttony has turned many CEOs into robber-barons (see Dunlap, "Chainsaw" Al for a case-study on this) in this age of compensation by stock option. Rather than earning an honest (and lucrative) income simply doing the best by shareholders and stakeholders in the company, the siren song of gluttony has turned these people from effective managers into day-traders, doing whatever it takes to get the 10-Qs accepted by Wall St., rather than planning for the long-term health of their firms. In the end, they're left with quite a bit of money, but no career, few admirers (even Jack Welch doesn't look so good anymore), and little happiness.

[#10 Jersey]

The term "Deadly Sin", as far as I know, is a Christian one.

From this non-Christian's perspective, gluttony is a bad thing in that by hoarding energy (such as capital) or using energy one doesn't have access to (ie, running up credit-card debt) one is disrupting the way that energy flows through one's own life and (often, but not always) impeding that energy's flow through someone else.

The negative ramifications of all this are not of the cosmic variety, but rather quite practical. For instance: gluttony has turned many CEOs into robber-barons (see Dunlap, "Chainsaw" Al for a case-study on this) in this age of compensation by stock option. Rather than earning an honest (and lucrative) income simply doing the best by shareholders and stakeholders in the company, the siren song of gluttony has turned these people from effective managers into day-traders, doing whatever it takes to get the 10-Qs accepted by Wall St., rather than planning for the long-term health of their firms. In the end, they're left with quite a bit of money, but no career, few admirers (even Jack Welch doesn't look so good anymore), and little happiness.

I would agree that it is up to everyone to live the best possible life, but an assumption was made that Bill Gates wasn't doing that, despite giving very large sums of money. I gave an example of someone that earns 50 billion and gives away 5 billion. Certainly, these examples have little to do with the examples you cited.

Just because someone makes a lot of money doesn't make them a robber baron. And just because someone doesn't make any money doesn't make them a righteous person. I just find the concept of money to be a weak indicator of living a "good" life.

[nutbar]

That's what I thought...a christian concept. I don't think you'll find that in the Torah.

But what about

Proverbs 22: 29 Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.

[christopher d]

I would agree that it is up to everyone to live the best possible life, but an assumption was made that Bill Gates wasn't doing that, despite giving very large sums of money. I gave an example of someone that earns 50 billion and gives away 5 billion. Certainly, these examples have little to do with the examples you cited.

Just because someone makes a lot of money doesn't make them a robber baron. And just because someone doesn't make any money doesn't make them a righteous person. I just find the concept of money to be a weak indicator of living a "good" life.
Of course they have little to do with the examples I've cited. I also don't find any spirituality in poverty, nor do I find wealth a measure of harm done to the world. In fact, I'd go so far as to say we agree on Mr. Gates's lack of gluttony as far as money is concerned.


In the arena of market share, on the other hand, I think his gluttony has hurt the software industry. Care to comment on that?

[Caesar]

Wouldn't 5 billion satisfy the tithing requirement. Where does it say in the bible that its not ok to make money? Well, spejic has already given you a list, and it's highly disingenuous for you to turn around and say "oh, I only meant the Torah" when you didn't specify in the first place.

Particularly given the fact the topic of this thread deals with one of the Seven Deadly Sins, an entirely Christian concept formulated by a sixth-century pope, meaning Jewish religious law is about as relevant here as Keynesian economics.

[spejic]

Yes, I am only concerned with gluttony as a Christian concept. I certainly have my own secular concept of gluttony and why it is bad, but I was specifically wondering why the Christian sense of the severity of it as a sin has been so reduced in modern times in America, a very gluttonous and very Christian nation. I mean, there are plenty of examples of how religion changes over time, but this a pretty drastic one. And the avoidance of gluttony is one of the most important of Jesus’ descriptions of how to actually live your life on Earth. I just wonder how believers avoid cognitive dissonance.

[Alex_K]

"Mammon" is the coolest word ever. If I had a proto-fascist death metal band, all the songs I write would have the word "mammon" in them.

Kreator have the line "losers in this sickening Reich of mammon" in one of their songs :D (they aren't proto-fascisct, though ;)).

[Caesar]

Yes, I am only concerned with gluttony as a Christian concept. I certainly have my own secular concept of gluttony and why it is bad, but I was specifically wondering why the Christian sense of the severity of it as a sin has been so reduced in modern times in America, a very gluttonous and very Christian nation. I mean, there are plenty of examples of how religion changes over time, but this a pretty drastic one. And the avoidance of gluttony is one of the most important of Jesus’ descriptions of how to actually live your life on Earth. I just wonder how believers avoid cognitive dissonance. There is quite a good article around somewhere that explores what being Christian in America is about... I think the guy who wrote it was called McCubbin or McKibbin or something, I wish I could remember and find it. Anyway, one of my favourite quotes from it was something like "when Jesus was asked by a rich man what he had to do to get into heaven, he didn't say 'earn, horde, invest, spend and let the benefits trickle down'".

I think this is one of the big selling points of the megachurches that are fanatically popular (and growing). They focus very, very heavily on reconciling the essentially socialist ideals of Jesus' teachings with the hardcore capitalist culture of the greater society. There is a lot of focus on the idea of the love of money being the root of all evil, and using the idea of not actually 'serving' mammon if you place God at the top of your list of priorities, regardless of how you pursue money in other areas of your life. There is an emphasis on attitude towards your wealth, rather than the simple starkness of whether or not you are wealthy.

One point continually stressed is that found in I Tim. 5:8: "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever." Which is the justification many religious types with jobs pulling down $500k use to justify putting junior in an expensive private school, living in a large house in an expensive suburb, owning 2 luxury SUVs and taking trips to Europe every summer.

There is also the idea of "stewardship" - God has granted you wealth, therefore you have an obligation to use it wisely, and if we were to squander His gifts with poor financial management we would be most remiss. Lots of stuff from Paul's letter to the Corinthians used to support this. Personally I think it's a crock - I've read a few articles by "Christian finance experts" about "living your life with God and fiscal responsibility" and they're basically the same increase-your-net-worth ideas every financial planner espouses couched in scriptural justification for wealth to appease the conscience of their readers.

Reconciling wealth with Christian ideals seems more to be about redefining wealth to find loopholes to that eye in the needle than reassessing how we choose to live our lives. But I should stop complaining - it's just this is one bit of hypocrisy that really pisses me off, so I'm prone to rant.