Size vs. skill--anyone care to reconsider?

[The Wanderer]

I'm the biggest beater of this drum, but Argentina shows us the way again and again. Lateral quickness(side to side), the ability to make cuts and stop on a dime, plus good ball skills is better than straightline speed with only average ball skills and lateral quickness. But we were bigger. So what.

Argentina shows us why we need to let our youth players dribble 1 v 1,and play small sided games.

I don't think we're as bad as we played today, but IMHO we really need to look at our youth coaching philosophy.

[jeffmefun]

[R] for any Argie discussion from today.

Wanderer - I was about to post the following, then decided to pass, then when I saw your post, reconsidered.

I think you've hit on a good point about what our national team players (except for JC) ought to be spending more time on, much less our youth. The defenders and defensive middies are perhaps the best targets for this, but everyone would benefit.

If players possessed the skills you described, they'd certainly have more options besides run hard left or right of who's defending you. Defenders might be more confident about holding onto the ball, rather than booting long passes as much as they do.

A case study in this today was Jeff Cunningham. Many of his dribbling clinics do open up other players and create passing opportunities that can throw a defense off balance (even if Jeff lacks the sense of timing to see those passes or the vision to run where's best to free teammates).

---- original post ---->

One thing that struck me about today's game - beyond the lack of touch and general "out-of-it-ness" of what seemed like many of our players, is that so many of our plays were so predictable. Near a sideline, how often did our players try to push it past the defender, along the sideline? Runners generally waited for possession to be established, and the Argies just seemed to know what we were going to do, and where we were going to do it, and then beating us there.

While we do have a few players who seem to be creative every now and then (along with the numerous pleas that Convey and Donovan make so many passes that teammates can't see or understand - although playing beyond the skill set of your national team teammates sounds like a dubious talent to me...), very often as a team we seem to lack some fundamental spark. Without getting too much into the "national style" debate, or "a real #10 would solve our problems," I'm wondering what people think of our individual players' creativity and what the best combinations of players are out there to generate more clever possessions and constructive scoring opportunities.

------------- end of original post ---

and, to the Wanderer's question - how concurrent is creativity and the ability to make those side to side cuts, quick starts and stops, etc....?

[appoo]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
I'm the biggest beater of this drum, but Argentina shows us the way again and again. Lateral quickness(side to side), the ability to make cuts and stop on a dime, plus good ball skills is better than straightline speed with only average ball skills and lateral quickness. But we were bigger. So what.

Argentina shows us why we need to let our youth players dribble 1 v 1,and play small sided games.

I don't think we're as bad as we played today, but IMHO we really need to look at our youth coaching philosophy.

Yea this is true but the reality of it is that the only other countries in the world that'll show us up like this will be Argentina and Brazil. Those guys are the benchmark for 1v1 players. I mean who else, other than those two countries, are gonna have that many supremely talented 1v1 players? I like to look at it this way: Yes Argentina made us look silly at times their creativity, but we held our own when we got our counter-attacking game going. Something that is reliant upon our superior athletecism.

And I think it goes far further than Youth Coaching. I think this is somethig very similar to Basketball development. Generally speaking our basketball players learn their ball handling skills (dribbling and passing) on the playgrounds. Like Iverson and Stehpon Marbury. They learn the fundamentals of the game (shooting, defense, sliding, etc.) from a coach later on starting in College, or nowadays, in the NBA. This is something that European talent (with the exception of Tony Parker of France) can't match. I'm pretty sure thats how those Argentines and Brazilians get their 1v1 skills. It's not taught by a coach, its just something they've done on playgrounds. I'm not sure how any changes to youth coaching can help that.

[appoo]

Originally posted by jeffmefun
[R] and, to the Wanderer's question - how concurrent is creativity and the ability to make those side to side cuts, quick starts and stops, etc....?

I would say that they go hand-in-hand. Since the question was posed about soccer I'll give you examples from other sports who are famed for that kind of agility. Barry Sander and Michael Vick in the NFL. Allen Iverson in the NBA. All are considered among the most creative in their respective sports.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by appooOnU
I'm not sure how any changes to youth coaching can help that.

Easy--emphasize one vs. one training and small sided games. Show the players moves that they can practice on their own, etc. Tell them that it's okay to be a little selfish every now and then.

[Karl K]

I'll take a somewhat different tack.

What impressed me about Argentina was NOT take on skills or dribbling ability, but rather (and all of these things are related)

(1) ability to support the ball effectively, i.e., to take up optimal positions to receive

(2) excellent first touch when the ball comes to them AFTER they've taken up good positions

(3) ability to run off the ball at just the right angle and speed to receive the return pass

(4) ability to get the return pass on the run with -- voila!! -- a good first touch.

In other words, what set them apart were the requisite technical skills to do tight space combination play to advance/control the ball, not necessarily take-on artistry or 1 v 1 ability.

Time and time again, especially in the first 20 minutes of this game, they worked their combinations almost at will as we were ball watching and/or had our heads turned.

Speed of play, speed of thought is what set them apart today, I believe.

[appoo]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
Easy--emphasize one vs. one training and small sided games. Show the players moves that they can practice on their own, etc. Tell them that it's okay to be a little selfish every now and then.

Granted. But would that really help so much? I want to believe you when you say it would but I'm not so sure I do. I just hope there are youth coaches who listen to people like you. And are willing to try new tactics.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Karl Keller
I'll take a somewhat different tack.

What impressed me about Argentina was NOT take on skills or dribbling ability, but rather (and all of these things are related)

(1) ability to support the ball effectively, i.e., to take up optimal positions to receive

(2) excellent first touch when the ball comes to them AFTER they've taken up good positions

(3) ability to run off the ball at just the right angle and speed to receive the return pass

(4) ability to get the return pass on the run with -- voila!! -- a good first touch.

In other words, what set them apart were the requisite technical skills to do tight space combination play to advance/control the ball, not necessarily take-on artistry or 1 v 1 ability.

Time and time again, especially in the first 20 minutes of this game, they worked their combinations almost at will as we were ball watching and/or had our heads turned.

Speed of play, speed of thought is what set them apart today, I believe.

Exactly, this is where the small sided games come in. However, having 1 v 1 ability makes the defenders think twice about over pressuring. The guy comes at you and "Ole", you're past him with acres of space. A side effect of this is that you have more room to work combinations.

I just get so tired of people saying that 1 v 1 is all about showboating and ball hogging. It's about creating space, and when combined with effective off the ball running, allows for numerical advantages to be exploited.

Last but not least, learning how to take players 1 v 1 improves touch in general. Receiving a pass at speed isn't so much different than 1 v 1 dribbling in terms of technical skills in that a player who can dribble well can probably receive well.

[appoo]

Originally posted by Karl Keller
I'll take a somewhat different tack.

What impressed me about Argentina was NOT take on skills or dribbling ability, but rather (and all of these things are related)

(1) ability to support the ball effectively, i.e., to take up optimal positions to receive

(2) excellent first touch when the ball comes to them AFTER they've taken up good positions

(3) ability to run off the ball at just the right angle and speed to receive the return pass

(4) ability to get the return pass on the run with -- voila!! -- a good first touch.

In other words, what set them apart were the requisite technical skills to do tight space combination play to advance/control the ball, not necessarily take-on artistry or 1 v 1 ability.

Time and time again, especially in the first 20 minutes of this game, they worked their combinations almost at will as we were ball watching and/or had our heads turned.

Speed of play, speed of thought is what set them apart today, I believe.

Yea But we've shown those kinds of things in the recent past. Not with the current bunch maybe but at times with the WC group. Today I think our biggest problem was that we had a bad game against a superior opponent. Time and again I'd see a cross go far post and one of our players would be running near post. Or youd see a devft touch into space, where none of our players were. From reports, it seems like Argentina Improved with each match they played, I'd say that if we had 2 other matches before hand our guys would have looked much sharper, with better off-the-ball-runs, and better crossing. But thats not an excuse, this Argentina was, quite simply put, more talented

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
Argentina shows us why we need to let our youth players dribble 1 v 1,and play small sided games.

I don't think we're as bad as we played today, but IMHO we really need to look at our youth coaching philosophy.

I'll take both quickness and speed. But given the choice, I take a player with fast feet, great fitness, and good skills over a player with fast legs any day of the week. Is this really a problem?

I'm not sure. Klein and Victorine - pretty slow feet for their positions. The rest of the team? A pretty bad day at the office.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Nutmeg
I'll take both quickness and speed. But given the choice, I take a player with fast feet, great fitness, and good skills over a player with fast legs any day of the week. Is this really a problem?

You wouldn't want a player like d'Alessandro? :)

I don't think it's a major problem per se, but any time one can get better on the ball, the more comfortable they are tactically IMHO. I have a belief that deficiencies at the senior level are derived from something being amiss at the youth level.

It was more a post to those types who think that our 'athleticism' and 'physicalness' are going to put us on par with the elite nations. Or those that think being 140 lbs and 5'5" is too small.

[due time]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
You wouldn't want a player like d'Alessandro? :)

I don't think it's a major problem per se, but any time one can get better on the ball, the more comfortable they are tactically IMHO. I have a belief that deficiencies at the senior level are derived from something being amiss at the youth level.

It was more a post to those types who think that our 'athleticism' and 'physicalness' are going to put us on par with the elite nations. Or those that think being 140 lbs and 5'5" is too small.

It really depends a lot on the opponent. If 150lbs and 5'5" with great ball skill is the 'correct' answer, then explain how Argentina and Brazil don't regularly trounce Germany and England?

It was clear in the WC quarterfinal that we needed some bigger, taller, more athletic defenders.

Actually, I think one of the advantages that the US will have in the future is that we will get both types of players. Then Arena can use whichever size/type of player matches up best with the opponent.

[due time]

But in general though, I do agree with your premise that our youth programs are geared to the big, fast, athletic players, and not towards the skilled ones. And the scales should be tilted back towards more skill.

[K.P.]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
[B]But we were bigger. So what.


Are you even sure that we were bigger? I'd need to see the rosters. Convey, Olsen, Beasley, and Donovan -- that's almost half our starting field players, and I don't know if any of them is bigger than 5'8", 150 lbs.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by due time
It really depends a lot on the opponent. If 150lbs and 5'5" with great ball skill is the 'correct' answer, then explain how Argentina and Brazil don't regularly trounce Germany and England?

Granted it was a friendly before the WC, but Argentina totally dominated Germany in Germany..it was 1-0 but Argentina sat back after they scored. Brazil beat Germany 2-0 in the final. In the actual WC, I believe that Bielsa didn't play the right formation, and that hurt them in their group play. Brazil usually beats England whenver they play.

[cpwilson80]

Originally posted by Karl Keller
I'll take a somewhat different tack.

What impressed me about Argentina was NOT take on skills or dribbling ability, but rather (and all of these things are related)

(1) ability to support the ball effectively, i.e., to take up optimal positions to receive

(2) excellent first touch when the ball comes to them AFTER they've taken up good positions

(3) ability to run off the ball at just the right angle and speed to receive the return pass

(4) ability to get the return pass on the run with -- voila!! -- a good first touch.

....

Speed of play, speed of thought is what set them apart today, I believe.

This is exactly what I saw yesterday. The first 20 minutes should be requisite viewing for coaches -- some of the finest combination play I have seen in a while.

The mental and technical abilities on the whole were simply better for Argentina than for us. Argentina would use half as many touches as we would for similar situations. I also noticed that for the most part, the "flair" dribbling wasn't for the sake of showing off, but by being unpredictable. Argentina would make the pass over the dribble (the goal being a great delayed 1-2 when D'Alessandro probably could have continued dribbling towards goal.)

Just glancing around here, though, you would have thought we played like the France '98 team. Remember that none of our guys are in season, and that in June, those first touches and passes are crisp again.

[Brownswan]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
Easy--emphasize one vs. one training and small sided games. Show the players moves that they can practice on their own, etc. Tell them that it's okay to be a little selfish every now and then.

Fine. But if that only happens 2 days a week during soccer season -- plus the weekend game -- we will still be in the same, rudderless boat 10 years from now.

Until the kids start doing this on their own, every day, after school and during the summer, we won't see real improvement. I think that's the key of the quote above -- "moves that they can practice on their own." Actually, if they've been playing on their own every day because they want to and its fun, they probably have a bag of tricks and the skills to go with them by the time they are 10 years old.

I believe kids are doing this, and its those kids we should be spotting and encouraging and supporting for state and national teams. It's the kids who play constantly for the fun of it who have a chance of becoming the best professional and national team players.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Brownswan
Fine. But if that only happens 2 days a week during soccer season -- plus the weekend game -- we will still be in the same, rudderless boat 10 years from now.

Until the kids start doing this on their own, every day, after school and during the summer, we won't see real improvement.

I agree. I'm not so sure how many kids know that's what they should be doing though, especially when we have teenagers practicing only 2 days a week for 5 months a year.

[Mr. Cam]

Mr. Cam did not write this introduction to American Football.

ULTIMATE NFL
COACHES CLUB FOOTBALL
INTRODUCTION

Welcome to Ultimate Football '95. Get your team ready and take your place on the field. The roar of the crowd rises in the background. A cheer erupts in anticipation of your next play. What's it gonna' be, coach? I mean, after all, there's only several hundred thousand people watching your every move, ready to second-guess your decisions on a moment's notice.

Every year, millions of Americans spend their Sundays watching football. Everyone enjoys a good game of football, because it contains the right mix of pageantry, excitement, sport, and competition - and this just scratches the surface.

Soon, though, many fans begin wondering just what is happening on the field. Football is a unique blend of pure excitement, sheer physical prowess, and [b]intellectual[/b finesse.

The sheer number of things that happen in a single football play is quite mind boggling. Every player position has its own intricacies and each player must be prepared for hundreds of situations. A player must be aware of not only the down, but the field position, yards to go, score, and time left. He must react to the opposition's shifts and sets.

Once a play starts, a player has only a faction of a second to identify what is happening and react properly. If a player misses a read or fails to react correctly, it often invalidates everything his teammates are doing. Games are won and lost based not on speed, strength, and quickness, but on split second decisions, often made by individual players.

Physical ability is merely a part of wining. The game of Football, very definitely has a thinking side to it as well. The guy you face across the line of scrimmage might be a better athlete than you, buy he still must out-think you. Your opponent might be bigger than you. . . , but he won't prevail unless you let him out-smart you.

A well-coached football team will almost always beat a poorly coached team, even if that team has more raw talent. The evolution of football strategy shows how thinking coaches have had a profound effect on the game - more so than any other influence. Rule changes, physical improvement of players, and television have all been adapted to by the great thinkers of the game. Now it's your turn to go them one better. Well, coach - what's it gonna be?

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Mr. Cam
Physical ability is merely a part of wining. The game of Football, very definitely has a thinking side to it as well. The guy you face across the line of scrimmage might be a better athlete than you, buy he still must out-think you. Your opponent might be bigger than you. . . , but he won't prevail unless you let him out-smart you.

A well-coached football team will almost always beat a poorly coached team, even if that team has more raw talent. The evolution of football strategy shows how thinking coaches have had a profound effect on the game - more so than any other influence. Rule changes, physical improvement of players, and television have all been adapted to by the great thinkers of the game. Now it's your turn to go them one better. Well, coach - what's it gonna be?

Okay, Mr. Cam, who distributes the ball in football? The quarterback. 1 guy out of 11. In soccer, who distributes the ball? All 11 field players.

Who calls the plays in football? The offensive coordinator, who's not even on the field. Who calls the plays in soccer? No one in particular.

What does any of this have to do with size vs. skill in regards to U.S. soccer? Nothing.