Advantage in the defensive third, quick restarts

[Fleck]

tonight i was playing a game and the referee kept calling (or waiting to blow the whistle for) advantage in our own defensive third. Personally I would have preferred if he would have just blown the whistle right away. Are there any guidelines for this?

Also the center mid for the other team was always wanting to restart play as quickly as possible and since I was guarding him closely, I was always nearby when he would try to do this. Each time he did it (without asking for 10 yards) I would block his pass and he would get upset and demand that I be carded. Now I wasnt point blank in front of him, trying to delay the restart, or moving toward the ball at all, I was just reading his eyes and intercepting his pass from about 5 yards away. Since he never asked for the 10 yards in the first place, should the referee have blown the whistle on me each time I did this? I was never carded, but the other team was given a new free kick each time.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

If he kicked the ball straight into you, then it's tough luck for him, and the free kick is not retaken. If you did something to intercept the pass that otherwise would have not hit you, then the kick is going to be retaken. Anyway why were you standing so close to him on a free kick? You're just asking for trouble.

As for the advantage, referees are generally taught that it would be most sensible to give advantage in the attacking third, slightly less in midfield, and least sensible to give it in the defensive third.

[Grizzlierbear]

tonight i was playing a game and the referee kept calling (or waiting to blow the whistle for) advantage in our own defensive third. Personally I would have preferred if he would have just blown the whistle right away. Are there any guidelines for this?

Yes law 18 adavantage is required when the need to see something is indicated by the signal and words advantage play on. ADVANTAGE must indeed be TRULY present not a continue play whenever possible. Allowing play to continue EVERY time a foul does not completely destroy an opponent is ASKING for trouble. Niggling fouls or cumulative kicks at the ankle while playing advantage is asking for an elbow to the head in retailiation at some point. On any advantage while we can go back to the original foul SOMETHING must always be done to send the players who foul a clear message be it a caution or a verbal warning. A true advantage occurs in the oppositions end FAR more often than at the defending end. Not that it can not happen just BE sure it TRULY happens!


Also the center mid for the other team was always wanting to restart play as quickly as possible and since I was guarding him closely, I was always nearby when he would try to do this. Each time he did it (without asking for 10 yards) I would block his pass and he would get upset and demand that I be carded. Now I wasnt point blank in front of him, trying to delay the restart, or moving toward the ball at all, I was just reading his eyes and intercepting his pass from about 5 yards away. Since he never asked for the 10 yards in the first place, should the referee have blown the whistle on me each time I did this? I was never carded, but the other team was given a new free kick each time.

If you are intercepting free kicks from less than 10 yards and the referee is awarding a retake and you are not recieving a caution is just weird! Granted IF you react quickly AFTER the ball is put in play and you were retreating to the MANDITORY ten yards as you are required to do the interception could indeed be the kicker's ineptitude and PLAY CONTINUES. I can assure you if I was refereeing and was ordering the retaking of free kicks you WILL be cautioned. If you are not retreating to 10 yards I will be on your case possibly verbally but certainly immediately. A slow walk or staying in at less than the 10 yard position at the taking of an opponent's free kick is ALWAYS illegal

[USSF REF]

Advantage in the last 3rd... unless you're refereeing in a pro like environment where the players can make a legitimate attack nearly every time from possession in that area -- I would say, forget it. Don't use advantage when all it will do is allow player frustration to build up. Are they really going to advance the ball into a dangerous position immediately out of the back, probably not. Of course, if you can read 3 passes ahead and see that there is a perfect chance for them, you can make the odd exception. But, for the most part, use advantage sparingly anyway, particularly in the defending 3rd. This also applies to most situations where the attacker is being hacked with his back to the opponents goal.

[ref47]

the guidelines for the advantage call are in the "advice to referees..." under law 5. there are a couple of questions that include advantage in the "lotg, questions and answers". like so many other things in this game, historical perspective and evolution contribute to what we are taught as refs. training, observation, discussion pass the "how to's" to us.

[blind_clown]

tonight i was playing a game and the referee kept calling (or waiting to blow the whistle for) advantage in our own defensive third. Personally I would have preferred if he would have just blown the whistle right away. Are there any guidelines for this?
Nothing wrong with giving advantage in the defending third, if it really is advantage. Did you ever think to tell the ref that wasn't an advantage for your team?


Also the center mid for the other team was always wanting to restart play as quickly as possible and since I was guarding him closely, I was always nearby when he would try to do this. Each time he did it (without asking for 10 yards) I would block his pass and he would get upset and demand that I be carded. Now I wasnt point blank in front of him, trying to delay the restart, or moving toward the ball at all, I was just reading his eyes and intercepting his pass from about 5 yards away. Since he never asked for the 10 yards in the first place, should the referee have blown the whistle on me each time I did this? I was never carded, but the other team was given a new free kick each time.
You should have been booked. Whistle blows, you move away. If you're moving back and he hits you or haven't started moving yet and he hits you, he's stupid. But once you stick your foot out to get the pass, it's a caution. The requirement to ask for 10 is a myth.

[Grizzlierbear]

You should have been booked. Whistle blows, you move away. If you're moving back and he hits you or haven't started moving yet and he hits you, he's stupid. But once you stick your foot out to get the pass, it's a caution. The requirement to ask for 10 is a myth.
Sadly It is a MYTH that a team must ask for 10 yards. However what is not a myth is the opponents must withdraw from the point of an infraction to COMPLY with the requirement of 10 yards. The myth exists BECAUSE the opposing players are not brought to task often enough for not doing what they are supposed too. A reasonable erffort to withdraw will not get you too much attention from the referee if you hit that 8 yard mark where one can get away with this looks like 10 ref? I will take exception though to players within that distance who remain still or slow to retreat. It is GAMESMENSHIP nothing more. I liked the 10 yard advancement rule in the EPL is it now no longer on trial?

[blind_clown]

Sadly It is a MYTH that a team must ask for 10 yards. However what is not a myth is the opponents must withdraw from the point of an infraction to COMPLY with the requirement of 10 yards. The myth exists BECAUSE the opposing players are not brought to task often enough for not doing what they are supposed too. A reasonable erffort to withdraw will not get you too much attention from the referee if you hit that 8 yard mark where one can get away with this looks like 10 ref? I will take exception though to players within that distance who remain still or slow to retreat. It is GAMESMENSHIP nothing more. I liked the 10 yard advancement rule in the EPL is it now no longer on trial?

I really don't understand how you're responding to the quote.

[Wreave]

The problem in this encroachment scenario is that the ref neither warned nor cautioned the offender, but continued to give rekicks. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

The defender should be moving away from the spot of the kick, even if the kicker doesn't ask for a ceremonial kick. The defender does not have the right to loiter and wait - the defending team has NO RIGHTS on a free kick.

What should have happened, as it seems we all agree, is that the ref should have warned the defender, then booked him. Or just booked him. Either way, you can either let the kick go, or caution the defender and rekick. You can't just give the rekick without the caution.

As a ref, I give players their verbal warning during pregame. The player in this case would have gotten his card on the first offense.

That having been said, if the attacking teams wants to take the kick without giving the defense time to move back, they take the result into their own hands. Not having been there, it's tough to tell whether the defender had time to move or not. It sounds like he was hanging out since the kicker was taking a quick kick. But, if the kick was taken without giving the defender time to move, and the defender was simply too quick and received the ball, no call should have been mande. Again, only if the defender was not loitering, and the kicker kicked before the defender had time to move.

[Grizzlierbear]

I really don't understand how you're responding to the quote.
I was generally agreeing with it but wanted to expand on the lack of enforcement to hold those who delay withdrawing to 10 yards is what creates the myth in the first place. The defenders who stand too close and lay claim they had no time to move are in the lowest percentile of reality in my opinion. 10 yards NOW! not later.

[Wreave]

You should have been booked. Whistle blows, you move away. If you're moving back and he hits you or haven't started moving yet and he hits you, he's stupid. But once you stick your foot out to get the pass, it's a caution. The requirement to ask for 10 is a myth.

I agree with everything here except "once you stick your foot out to get the pass, it's a caution." If you're moving away, and the kicker takes the kick, as soon as the kicker touches the ball, it's over. There is no more FRD - play has restarted. A defender can intercept the ball.

As we all agree, the defender has no rights. But, in a quick kick, once the kicker takes the kick, he takes the defenders as they are. They don't have to stand and watch as the ball goes by.

[MidwestRef]

Good question on the advantage in the defensive third. I am usually very hesitant about calling advantage in the defensive third of the field. However, if I know the team well and realize they want the counter-attack or have a lot of team speed, I'll usually play advantage a little more unless someone tells me they don't want it. Also, if I see the team has a gaping hole in the midfield and they're on a full-speed run, I'll grant advantage.

As for the encroachment issue, all I can say is that you start backing up and MAKE NO ATTEMPT TO PLAY THE BALL AT ALL. If the opponent then kicks the ball into you, I will do my best to just let the play go. However, if you make any movement, I'll restart play and at least warn you.

[blind_clown]

As for the encroachment issue, all I can say is that you start backing up and MAKE NO ATTEMPT TO PLAY THE BALL AT ALL. If the opponent then kicks the ball into you, I will do my best to just let the play go. However, if you make any movement, I'll restart play and at least warn you.
Systems of control in order of preference:
1. Pissing no one off.
2. Pissing one team off.
3. Pissing both teams off.

Restarting with a warning falls under 3. The defenders get mad you make the call and the attackers for your failure to give the required caution.

[MidwestRef]

Systems of control in order of preference:
1. Pissing no one off.
2. Pissing one team off.
3. Pissing both teams off.

Restarting with a warning falls under 3. The defenders get mad you make the call and the attackers for your failure to give the required caution.

Fair enough, but what if you are unsure if the movement was intentional (i.e. I'm honestly moving backward trying to get out of the way, but maybe I lose my balance a little and kick a leg out)? It's a gray area for sure, but I wouldn't want to caution for that kind of situation. My two cents only, but a restart with a warning may send a message without having to issue a card.

[bluedevils]

it depends on the circumstances, but i am willing to allow play to continue and not penalize a defending player for intercepting a pass when he is closer than 10 yards from the FK. it depends if he is making a reasonable effort to retreat and is not still right on top of the FK when it is taken. if he passes both of those tests, there's a good chance i will not order a retake.

if you were challenging for the ball and whistled for the foul, you are likely to be very near the spot of the FK before it is retaken. as long as you are retreating, i have no problem allowing you to make a play for the ball once it is put in play. this includes moving to intercept the ball or 'sticking a foot out' or whatever else.

am i in the minority on this?

[Fleck]

if the attacking teams wants to take the kick without giving the defense time to move back, they take the result into their own hands.

This is what I was trying to argue with the referee. I mean if the guy is dumb enough to kick the ball right at me (he literally hit me in the back as I was walking away on the first restart in question) I think he should have to deal with the outcome.

Not having been there, it's tough to tell whether the defender had time to move or not. It sounds like he was hanging out since the kicker was taking a quick kick. But, if the kick was taken without giving the defender time to move, and the defender was simply too quick and received the ball, no call should have been mande. Again, only if the defender was not loitering, and the kicker kicked before the defender had time to move.

On the second restart I could tell he was going to put the ball in play right away again (he was played the ball right after he stopped it with his hand, the bendover kick) so I wasnt technically moving back, but he kicked the ball about 2 yards to my left so I just intercepted it easily.

[bluedevils]

Advantage in the last 3rd... unless you're refereeing in a pro like environment where the players can make a legitimate attack nearly every time from possession in that area -- I would say, forget it. Don't use advantage when all it will do is allow player frustration to build up. Are they really going to advance the ball into a dangerous position immediately out of the back, probably not. Of course, if you can read 3 passes ahead and see that there is a perfect chance for them, you can make the odd exception. But, for the most part, use advantage sparingly anyway, particularly in the defending 3rd. This also applies to most situations where the attacker is being hacked with his back to the opponents goal.

excellent post. my thoughts are pretty much in line with this.

[Wreave]

Fair enough, but what if you are unsure if the movement was intentional (i.e. I'm honestly moving backward trying to get out of the way, but maybe I lose my balance a little and kick a leg out)? It's a gray area for sure, but I wouldn't want to caution for that kind of situation. My two cents only, but a restart with a warning may send a message without having to issue a card.

There's that word which should be evil for referees: "intentional". Referees don't judge intent. We judge whether an action was deliberate.

Other than the issue of irritating both teams and making yourself look indecisive by ordering a rekick without giving a caution, we're still back to the question of why you're stopping play if the kicker accepted a quick kick with a close defender.

Taking the kick with a defender within ten yards does not give the kicker the right to make a close kick by that defender in hopes of squeaking it by him, or by pretending that he's not there. Being within ten yards of a free kick is not like being in an offside position (i.e. unable to touch the ball until played by someone "legal"). If the defender is moving back, and the kicker takes the kick, at the moment the ball is kicked and moves, play has restarted.

At that point, whether the defender's action to stop the ball was deliberate (extends a leg) or not (gets hit in the back), under what auspices are you ordering another restart?

What the heck, let's break out Jim Allen:

An attacking team which chooses to take a free kick with an opponent closer than the minimum distance may not thereafter claim infringement of the distance requirement, even if the ball is kicked directly to the infringing opponent, who thereby gains control of the ball.
Sometimes referees cannot tell if the team wants to take a quick kick or not, as the kicking team isn't sure itself. The referee should move quickly out of the way after indicating the approximate area of the restart and should do nothing to interfere with the kicking team's right to an immediate free kick. At competitive levels of play, referees should not automatically "manage the wall," but should allow the ball to be put back into play as quickly as possible, unless the kicking team requests help in dealing with opponents infringing on the minimum distance.
If the referee decides to delay the restart and to enforce the required minimum distance, he must tell the players not to start until he gives a clear signal to do so. An attacker who restarts play without a signal should be verbally warned and, upon repetition, be cautioned for unsporting behavior. An opponent who moves closer to the spot of the kick (from any direction) before it is taken must be cautioned and shown the yellow card if the referee has delayed the restart to ensure that the opponents are at the minimum distance. If one or more opponents fail to respect the required distance before the ball is properly put into play, the referee should stop the restart to deal with this infringement. The free kick must be retaken even if the momentum of play causes the ball to be kicked before the referee signals. The infringement plus the referee's decision to deal with it cancel any apparent restart regardless of a delay in announcing the decision.
Players should not have to ask for the ten yards, but neither should the referee be left hanging. It is better if players who definitely WANT the full ten yards ask for it, just to be safe.

Note that in the second part of this answer, beginning with "if one or more opponents...", regards a ceremonial free kick, or more generally a defender who moves in on the kick, NOT a quick kick/defender moving away.

[Grizzlierbear]

This is what I was trying to argue with the referee. I mean if the guy is dumb enough to kick the ball right at me (he literally hit me in the back as I was walking away on the first restart in question) I think he should have to deal with the outcome.

It is RARELY a good idea to argue with the referee even if you believe he is incorrect. A possiblity of being cautioned for dissent generally does not make getting it off your chest at that moment worth it. Still as a coach I can acknowledge biting the lip at times is EXTREMELY dificult which is why I tell my players let me handle the issues!
I will say as to your evaluation you are spot on here in my opinion as you have done nothing that could be misinterpreted to the aware referee as interfering with the free kick or failing to respect the 10 yards as you are not even looking at the ball and you are moving away from the point of the restart.



On the second restart I could tell he was going to put the ball in play right away again (he was played the ball right after he stopped it with his hand, the bendover kick) so I wasnt technically moving back, but he kicked the ball about 2 yards to my left so I just intercepted it easily.


Now here in my opinion a player COULD be on the referee radar because of not moving away. It may sound incongruious but as we are to allow the quick quicks our task as referee is to ensure nothing unfair prevents a legally taken one. Now tactically, a defender in close proximity to the restart position it is my condition of play that he best not be there and should be making an effort NOT to be there. If your eyes on the spot of the ball placement while you remain still but within a close distance it could appear you are responding to that restart by failing to back away.

Each referee while a mixture of experiance and understanding of the game is a MATCH conditon just like the weather or pitch surface, rain or sun hard or muddy! A player adapts to the over techy guy, the out of position guy, the new guy, the set in the old school guy, because for THAT game the referee is a fixture just like the corner flag, post or crossbar he is part of the field of play. This character may indeed call things loose, tight or somewhere in between. It is a fact that the consistancy of refereeing is not upheld game to game simply because various stages of development are at work. It is only possible for a referee to show consistancy in the MATCH he presides over for that 1 & 1/2 hr. As referees complete training and move on up they GENERALY arrive at greater concensus but man management is a skill that what works for one not always for another and occassionally not even for the one

[MidwestRef]

Wreave, thanks for the Jim Allen quote. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I'm wrong in this case. I'll have to keep a better eye on this type of situation in the future.