Heaven and Hell

[Dadinho]

No, not Max Fischer's brilliant play, but the religious conceptions of where the faithful and damned end up, respectively.

Something that has troubled\perplexed me about Christianity is the simple idea of heaven and hell. If I'm not mistaken, pre-copernican Christian theology followed the aristotelian idea of heaven as a physical place up in the sky (along with crystals and other crazy ideas that we'll forgive Aristotle for having). What has happened since? Do any of the major Christian religions have an agreed upon idea, within their own church or with others?

Additionally, if there is no consensus among churches or if you don't follow it, I would like to know if in your personal belief you believe that heaven and hell are actual physical locations, which I suppose would mean that the soul is measurable, definable and quantifiable. Or if they are more conceptual in nature and don't actually exist in any physical realm, which isn't to say that they don't exist only that they can't be quantified.

If physical then where would each exist? Would it be in another dimension, or could it be a different universe altogether?

Eternally Curious (and damned because of this curiosity),
Dadinho

p.s. I'm not sure what Muslim and Jewish theologians have to say, but I'd be thankful for any Jews or Muslims to share their thoughts.

[NoodlesMacintosh]

In my beliefs Heaven and Hell are actual, physical places, but Heaven at least does not exist yet in its final form. Until then most souls will be waiting for the resurrections and judgment to figure out where they're going. Heaven will be a perfected form of Earth. I would kindly appreciate a lack of Belinda Carlisle references in relation to this statement. It's not just some place in the sky you fly away to, but since I don't really know where the Spirit World is (by this I don't mean Purgatory as it seems to be commonly understood; no fire, at least, but yeah, it's a place to clean up after life and before judgment if you're so inclined...it's where those without the chance to learn about the Gospel in life have the opportunity to do so), and since I just said Heaven isn't here yet, well, yeah.

So I just said that there's a place where you can learn and progress after death but before judgment. I also said you can do so if you're so inclined...I realize that sounds a bit weird, but I believe that who you are in life is who you are in death...if you're not willing to change, or are entrenched in other beliefs in life, I don't think that'll change much when you die. I don't adhere to the asinine statement that all unbelievers will die terrified believers or some such rubbish. A man convinced of his own will is hard to shake, regardless of what that will has him convinced of.

As for the other realms (since I believe there's more to it than the simple Heaven/Hell dichotomy...there being kind of a grey area inbetween where you're still damned--as in not able to spiritually progress, which is still major--but you're not in Hell) there are many places to go depending on how good a person you were. I think there are too many things to do right/wrong for it to come down to two locations. I couldn't tell you much about Hell (as opposed to various degrees of Not Heaven) other than it's a place you almost have to strive to reach. I don't know where it is/will be. I don't research it all that much. Sorry.

[Ismitje]

Here's a terrific book from Yale University, now in its second edition, that I found intriguing in its discussion of various Christian concepts of heaven:

http://graphics.christianbook.com/g/product/2/25202.gif

Authors McDannell and Lang do consider concepts of hell to some extent as well. They do not judge amongst the various approaches, and the Yale publishing stamp makes it more informational than judgemental. Good writing style, too.

One of the main dividing points amongst the various "heavens" is whether the afterlife is anthropocentric (the main point is to live with loved ones) or theocentric (the main point is living with God). I favor the former, while acknowledging the importance of the living with God aspect.

As an academic who is also religious, I found Heaven, A History very enlightening.

[SirManchester]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?

[Dadinho]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?

Well, that is what I believe, but I happen to be interested in the beliefs of others and their reasons for having them.

[SirManchester]

Well, that is what I believe, but I happen to be interested in the beliefs of others and their reasons for having them.

oh don't get me wrong, I'm with you, I'm always fanscinated to hear what story everyone else believes in too.

[Ismitje]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?

I think that most Christian versions of death include disintegration into dust and heaven at the same time. But since there's also a belief in resurrection from those dust particles back into corporeal form, I guess the full disintegration idea isn't really embraced.

[Toon³]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?

Because that is really really dull.

I think it would be really cool be a ghost, not needing to feed or sleep or have sex becaus you'd always have that just had sex while eating a steak sandwich after a long nap feeling. Just observing the living going about their business.

Man that would be sweet. Quick someone shoot me so I can go watch Jessica Alba in the shower

[SoccerPro843]

Because that is really really dull.

I think it would be really cool be a ghost, not needing to feed or sleep or have sex becaus you'd always have that just had sex while eating a steak sandwich after a long nap feeling. Just observing the living going about their business.

Man that would be sweet. Quick someone shoot me so I can go watch Jessica Alba in the shower
Yeah, but what if you die tragically, and you are doomed to relive that moments for eternity? Not all ghosts are happy ghosts my friend.

[Toon³]

Yeah, but what if you die tragically, and you are doomed to relive that moments for eternity? Not all ghosts are happy ghosts my friend.

I'm not going to die tragically, I already know how I'm going to die and it's freakin sweet!

[#10 Jersey]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?

what about your soul?

[quentinc]

Why is it so hard to believe that after we die we just disintegrate in the ground?
Because people don't want to believe that's what they lived their entire life for.

[#10 Jersey]

Because people don't want to believe that's what they lived their entire life for.

Or that it doesn't make sense that you would live your life and then just turn off.

[Dadinho]

what about your soul?

But this assumes that souls exist, and I´m betting SirM doesn´t.

[NoodlesMacintosh]

Yeah, but what if you die tragically, and you are doomed to relive that moments for eternity? Not all ghosts are happy ghosts my friend.

The Stone Tape (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069316/)

Review: http://www.braineater.com/house/stonetape.html

[#10 Jersey]

But this assumes that souls exist, and I´m betting SirM doesn´t.

Just pointing out that he has no proof for his view.

[NoodlesMacintosh]

Just pointing out that he has no proof for his view.

Few people have any definite proof for any philosophical/religious view they hold.

Except me. :D

[SoccerPro843]

I'm not going to die tragically, I already know how I'm going to die and it's freakin sweet!
Maybe not tragically, but in a horrific way.

[SirManchester]

what about your soul?

my what now? :confused:




















ooohhhh..you mean my penis. well, I'm sure dozens of little nightcrawlers will be battling it out for it after I'm gone.

[SirManchester]

Just pointing out that he has no proof for his view.


You're right, I have no proof that we just disintegrate into the ground.