Bob Evans Blog: Issues with Unlimited Substitutions

[USSF REF]

weBLOG (http://fortheintegrityofsoccer.blogs.com/artandscienceofrefereeing/2006/02/we_have_a_long_.html)

I also agree that the culture of constant free substitutions is foolish for soccer and the sooner we abandon it for all youth travel soccer and higher, the sooner we'll see even more growth in the American game.

[Statesman]

I believe the author is Bob Evans in this case, and quite frankly I think his position is completely uncalled for. As far as I'm concerned he loses more credibility with every post made. As mentioned in the comments, with the economic factors hindering the amateur leagues they need a vehicle to increase player volume to bring in more money. Free subs is the best way to accomplish that, along with a roster size increase. More players getting more of a chance to play = more money.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bob thinks things are so poor these days we might as well do away with soccer completely.

[USSF REF]

:( TOTALLY MY BAD!!! -- SORRY, that is in fact Bob Evan's site. I flipped it in my head with the coauthor of their book. Sorry Bob and Ed... My bad.

Can mod fix that subj for me?

[BC_Ref]

I believe the author is Bob Evans in this case, and quite frankly I think his position is completely uncalled for. As far as I'm concerned he loses more credibility with every post made. As mentioned in the comments, with the economic factors hindering the amateur leagues they need a vehicle to increase player volume to bring in more money. Free subs is the best way to accomplish that, along with a roster size increase. More players getting more of a chance to play = more money.


I generally think most of his posts are on the point since they deal with more of the senior/professional matters. This one is badly off. The league he mentions is an amateur league. Therefore, they are beholden to the paying customers - players.

Locally we have a bastardized system for adults - 5 subs per game, but re-entry allowed. Each team gets 5 slips allowing for 5 subs. As they see fit. It works pretty well. More people can play while stopping mass substitutions from wrecking the spirit of the game.

Locally, outside of the very limited college season, these leagues provide refs with very solid games and (at the top levels) very challenging and assessable games. Good for everyone

[Statesman]

Well, let's just say that "the integrity of soccer" is not his sole motivation for being critical of USSF. Things can certainly be improved, but I hardly think his attitude and means are the best way to go about it. Given his relationship with USSF, he's a tad biased.

Personally I think he's grasping a bit to suggest unlimited subs is really all that bad of a thing in amateur soccer.

[USSF REF]

Well, let's just say that "the integrity of soccer" is not his sole motivation for being critical of USSF. Things can certainly be improved, but I hardly think his attitude and means are the best way to go about it. Given his relationship with USSF, he's a tad biased.

Personally I think he's grasping a bit to suggest unlimited subs is really all that bad of a thing in amateur soccer.

I guess he's just using the general model from the rest of the world that isn't North America... I think for the most part -- most places have limited subs from under-7 and up.

[colins1993]

I guess he's just using the general model from the rest of the world that isn't North America... I think for the most part -- most places have limited subs from under-7 and up.

I know zilch about this author's background or is past relationship with US Soccer.

I tend to agree with him.

The game would be much more attractive IMO if it's pace was slowed for the most part. The revolving door policy on subs I feel makes for a more frenetic pace which results in unattractive soccer.

[Statesman]

Bob Evans, former FIFA referee and USSF referee director (Al K's position) - wrote a letter criticizing MLS referees and the instruction they are given that became public. As a result, was released from his position of national assessor and became a black sheep to USSF. Now he writes a blog, but instead of focusing on issues that actually help referees he uses it to snipe at the USSF administration. Often he contorts the story with a biased slant and twice he's had to retract statements after being corrected by first-hand accounts of what he's written about.

His book, For the Good of the Game, is an invaluable resource to any referee. He, however, is quickly becoming somebody to ignore. Just my opinion, of course.

[USSF REF]

He, however, is quickly becoming somebody to ignore. Just my opinion, of course.


I do not agree with this.

[Grizzlierbear]

The book written by BOB and Ed is a good read and will benifit any referee who seeks understanding. Respect is often a double edged sword simply because you can not lose what you do not have so when it is obtained it hurts more to see it disappear. To defend a position could imply that one is in error but I rather feel we leave matters unexplained or contribute to myth by accepting certain versions of the truth as absolute rather than a view of options.

There are few absolutes in the world of soccer, they are certainly not devoide of anger or injustice or misinformation or a skewered point of view based on the facts as know to them. When some one says it is a beautiful day somewhere it generally is.

The internet as a FACTUAL medium is woefully absent on truth in many cases. Yet discussion fostered within the context of mutual benifit creates good opinions far more often than bad. Especially when there is a common purpose or goal in sharing what we can hope is usefull information. It takes less courage to stand up and say something is wrong then to sit down and make things right.

I distrust those who say they DO not care what others think! It is of better character not to worry than not to care. I love the free will concept in choice of faith, beliefs and chosen paths. Ultimate freedom is ultimate responsibility. It can be chaos or for those who care, who have compassion and can reason and understand faceing confrontation with no finger of blame but the resolve to fix the problems will always have my respect and admiration.

Those who commit to principle but refuse to consider change must reconsider.
The challange of life is one of continuous discovery. Be it your relationship with GOD, your family, your friends as well as your enemies.
There are too many people in this world to like them all but too little time to waste it in conflict with our friends. I like Chris Rock's classification of those who take the single face of a liberal or conservative, a republican or democrate, religious right or fanatic left . Those who become only one thing often fail at everything else!

The challange of life is one of continuous discovery. Be it your relationship with GOD, your family, your friends as well as your enemies.

[Alberto]

Great post Grizz. I believe Dr. Evans is off based to criticize an amateur league for it's substitution policy. Unlimited substitution particularly in the youth game an invaluable learning tool. It allows coaches the chance to correct players deficiencies. Sub a player out talk about what happened and how to improve.

Statesman, as to your opinion on Dr. Evans you come off sounding like a spokesman for the USSF. Speaking of correcting, let me correct a statement you made regarding Dr. Evans. He did not criticize MLS officials he criticized the USSF and the MLS for creating a system that forces referees to serve two masters and was contrary to how other FIFA countries handle the assignments and the evaluation of their officials.

[USSF REF]

Great post Grizz. I believe Dr. Evans is off based to criticize an amateur league for it's substitution policy. Unlimited substitution particularly in the youth game an invaluable learning tool. It allows coaches the chance to correct players deficiencies. Sub a player out talk about what happened and how to improve.


I do see you point and it has merit. I personally believe though, that constantly pulling players off the pitch to correct them, isn't necessarily teaching them to be a true "player". The reason I say this is that we know in most places in the world the game is treated as a players game, and players traditionally have to overcome and learn from the situations that are thrown at them in a match. It is incumbent on them and not the coach to make not only individual decisions but also tactical choices. Allowing the players to make mistakes is the only way they can learn. Limited subs also force players to require a much higher level of fitness and that too is a good thing.

In regards to the amateur league, I personally feel they should play with lmited subs, but I also appriciate and agree with their right to have whatever substitution methody that they like. If they pay then they can dictate how it goes in their league and no one can stop them.

I think as a reasonable comprimise to this is to adopt the substituion policy that is used in the USYS National Championship Series. They have subs limited in the following way, for U-15 an up:

Each player on the bench can be substitued once each half, during any stoppage in play. Once a player exits in a half, they cannot return for the remainder of that half. If a team has used all of its subs in a half, and a player is injured you must play a man down, unless they get better. The 2 periods of extra time are considered as "one half" for the purpose of substitution tracking. Having worked with this system, I find that it is a pretty good comprimse this keeps players in the game longer and keeps subbing as a coaching tactic down to a minimum. It also prevents a lot of time wasting by the fair use of subs later in games.

As an aside, I would hope that NCAA adopts this concept and drops the 2nd half "reentry" that is awarded to these players. They are fit enough not to need it, or should be. Plus they have roster sizes up to as many as 30 players in some cases.

[Alberto]

Let me clarify my remarks as they were intended for younger players U10 and under. As players get older and more skillful there should be less substitution allowed. It also depends on whether we are talking about rec or travel (even for travel soccer teams are flighted based on ability) so it really comes down to the age and skill level of the players.

Why must everyone jump to the position of the most narrow interpretation of one's remarks. Did I say it was an absolute rule to pull a player out? No, I stated it has benefit. I certainly, did not advocate to pull aplayer out strictly for instruction. There are many reasons coaches substitute.

[Alberto]

In regards to the amateur league, I personally feel they should play with lmited subs, but I also appriciate and agree with their right to have whatever substitution methody that they like. If they pay then they can dictate how it goes in their league and no one can stop them.

I think as a reasonable comprimise to this is to adopt the substituion policy that is used in the USYS National Championship Series. They have subs limited in the following way, for U-15 an up:

Each player on the bench can be substitued once each half, during any stoppage in play. Once a player exits in a half, they cannot return for the remainder of that half. If a team has used all of its subs in a half, and a player is injured you must play a man down, unless they get better. The 2 periods of extra time are considered as "one half" for the purpose of substitution tracking. Having worked with this system, I find that it is a pretty good comprimse this keeps players in the game longer and keeps subbing as a coaching tactic down to a minimum. It also prevents a lot of time wasting by the fair use of subs later in games.



It depends on the league. At a premier amateur level yes, on a non-flighted amateur level, who are we to dictate the fact that constant susbtitution is annoying and kills the flow of the game. They pay for the right to play and contingent on how the coach or team captain see's it, that's how they should sub regardless of how we may abhor the unlimited substitution rule.

[Statesman]

Statesman, as to your opinion on Dr. Evans you come off sounding like a spokesman for the USSF. Speaking of correcting, let me correct a statement you made regarding Dr. Evans. He did not criticize MLS officials he criticized the USSF and the MLS for creating a system that forces referees to serve two masters and was contrary to how other FIFA countries handle the assignments and the evaluation of their officials.

Why must everyone jump to the position of the most narrow interpretation of one's remarks.

Interesting.

[Alberto]

Interesting.

Yes, particularly when it creates the impression that Dr. Evans has issues with not only the USSF, but also it's referees. You were very aware of what he wrote regarding the way the USSF was being asked by the MLS to tell the referees to avoid sanctioning the stars of the league.

Here's the link. http://soccer-ref.quietfire.com/BobEvansPaper.html

Even more interesting was your post with respect to his remarks. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=364751&postcount=25

Why the about face now?

[njref]

I can't think of one youth team sport in the US that has limited substitution - football, basketball, lacrosse, hockey all allow virtually unlimited subs, and even baseball little leagues have pretty free subs. Making youth players spend long stretches on the bench is a guarenteed way to make them lose interest. Whatever the merits of limited subs at the higher levels, the concept has no place in youth sports.

Ironically, my local league and others (I think at the urging of the USSF?) has just moved to subs at ANY stoppage, rather than the old limit of goal kick, your own throw, etc, so if anything we are moving even further away from "limited" subs.

[Chas (Psyatika)]

To be fair, though, with the exception of baseball on that list, all the sports you mention have unlimited subs at the professional level too.

[Statesman]

Yes, particularly when it creates the impression that Dr. Evans has issues with not only the USSF, but also it's referees. ... Why the about face now?

Do you know him not to have issues with the referees? I'm not going to claim intimate knowledge of what he does or does not have issue with, other than from his writings and speeches. It's always sounded to me that he has issues with referees allowing themselves to be coerced.

As far as the "about face" comment - I still support what he said about the issue at the time. I just don't think his attitude and opinion expressed in his current blog are productive or professional (or accurate half the time). Some posts are high quality, others are tabloid trash.

[Attacking Minded]

Bob Evans, former FIFA referee and USSF referee director (Al K's position) - wrote a letter criticizing MLS referees and the instruction they are given that became public. As a result, was released from his position of national assessor and became a black sheep to USSF. Now he writes a blog, but instead of focusing on issues that actually help referees he uses it to snipe at the USSF administration. Often he contorts the story with a biased slant and twice he's had to retract statements after being corrected by first-hand accounts of what he's written about.

His book, For the Good of the Game, is an invaluable resource to any referee. He, however, is quickly becoming somebody to ignore. Just my opinion, of course.
He's not alone.