View Full Version : Klinsmann and die Nationalmannschaft
JeffS
07 Mar 2006, 07:57 PM
Some stuff that I have found:
http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-5647236,00.html
"We had no interest in making headlines," Klinsmann said in an interview with Premiere television. "We told Christian in October he should refrain from making public comments on the team when he's not nominated. We thought he'd abide. He didn't.
"He repeatedly questioned our decisions in public and cast aspersions on the team so we were unfortunately compelled to say we're not going to include him in our planning," he said.
Klinsmann later told journalists that Woerns' remarks were "cheeky and disrespectful," and added: "There's no basis to work together anymore. He was only thinking about himself."
But Woerns shot back on Saturday:
"Disrespectful? I can only laugh at that. It's disrespectful the way Klinsmann treats people, treats the father of a family."
Woerns told ARD television: "The whole way I've been treated by Klinsmann is under-handed and dishonest."
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=359640&cc=5901
'It's been said that nominations are based on performance. But if I'm not on the team now then that's not apparently the case. They should openly tell me that it's not performance but rather that someone can't stand my face anymore.'
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=360100&cc=5901
Ballack:
'I value Christian as a player and as a person and I can understand his disappointment,' Ballack told a news conference ahead of Wednesday's World Cup warm-up against Italy in Florence.
'But his reaction was too harsh - the trainer cannot accept something like that,' the Bayern Munich midfielder said.
http://in.sports.yahoo.com/060224/137/62oof.html
It is not the first time Woerns has clashed with Klinsmann. Back in October, they had a 30-minute chat to defuse a row over his omission from the Germany squad.
Woerns had complained to the media about losing his place for matches against Turkey and China. According to reports at the time, he also complained directly in an angry telephone call to Klinsmann in California.
http://www.borussia-dortmund.com/?%9F%2Ah%97%84%EC%5Dl%E5%87%9A
After his 417th Bundesliga match, the Borussia defender did not want to make things worse, but reconfirmed his criticism: "I still think what I said was true. But I am available for talks at any time." His boss, BVB CEO Hans-Joachim Watzke, indirectly asked Klinsmann for forgiveness: "Christian´s comments were made spontaneously and were very emotional. Klinsmann also would not have kicked a hole in the advertisement box München with a 24 hour delay."
http://www.borussia-dortmund.com/?%82%9E%2Ah%97%84%EC%5Do%E1%85%98
Wörns: We had a long discussion a few months ago in Hamburg. At that time he told me that he knows the way I play and that he will test the young players. The whole thing wasn´t about my performance, he said. Shortly afterwards he said in public that Köln´s Lukas Sinkiewicz was "a step ahead of me". That´s when I reacted publicly for the first time, and I think that didn´t go down very well with him. There has never been a clear instruction for me. The way Klinsmann has handled this is dishonest and insincere.
Okay, the last one is interesting.
"At that time he told me that he knows the way I play and that he will test the young players."
"Shortly afterwards he said in public that Köln´s Lukas Sinkiewicz was "a step ahead of me".
Woerns' own words. Klinsmann told him that he would test the young players, then that Sinkiewicz was a step ahead of him.
So, I'm doing my own research. Nothing conclusive yet. The last bit, with Woerns' own words, seems to suggest that Klinsmann was up front with Woerns in that he intended to test the young guys.
But I still believe you footyfan1, due to your passion and how hard you are arguing that Klinsmann lied to Woerns.
Any of your links will still be appreciated. :)
arthur d
07 Mar 2006, 08:06 PM
Of course I do, but in that case, the player flipped off their own fans. I would have understood Vogts sitting him for the rest of the tournament, but I think Vogts overreacted, especially in keeping Effenberg out of the side all of those years.
Very stubborn and stupid.......
I also didn't blame Effenberg for quitting after one match under Ribbeck. He didn't want to become a scapegoat for a mess he had nothing to do with making.
Yep, very stubborn. Maybe we are seeing the flip side of the mentality that has contributed to Germany's success in the past....
In any case, I am glad the Ribbeck disaster is over. That's truly a time to forget. What the feck were they thinking!
footyfan1
07 Mar 2006, 08:15 PM
Yep, very stubborn. Maybe we are seeing the flip side of the mentality that has contributed to Germany's success in the past....
In any case, I am glad the Ribbeck disaster is over. That's truly a time to forget. What the feck were they thinking!
Well, Paul Breitner said he had been offered the job, but then he criticized the way DFB did things, and they rescinded the job offer to him and basically handed it to Ribbeck.
I used to call Ribbeck's "Braun's Puppet" because of this.
footyfan1
07 Mar 2006, 08:18 PM
Some stuff that I have found:
http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-5647236,00.html
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=359640&cc=5901
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=360100&cc=5901
Ballack:
http://in.sports.yahoo.com/060224/137/62oof.html
http://www.borussia-dortmund.com/?%9F%2Ah%97%84%EC%5Dl%E5%87%9A
http://www.borussia-dortmund.com/?%82%9E%2Ah%97%84%EC%5Do%E1%85%98
Okay, the last one is interesting.
"At that time he told me that he knows the way I play and that he will test the young players."
"Shortly afterwards he said in public that Köln´s Lukas Sinkiewicz was "a step ahead of me".
Woerns' own words. Klinsmann told him that he would test the young players, then that Sinkiewicz was a step ahead of him.
So, I'm doing my own research. Nothing conclusive yet. The last bit, with Woerns' own words, seems to suggest that Klinsmann was up front with Woerns in that he intended to test the young guys.
But I still believe you footyfan1, due to your passion and how hard you are arguing that Klinsmann lied to Woerns.
Any of your links will still be appreciated. :)
Again, I don't have time for it. Go with what you truly believe. No need to patronize me. I have my information and I trust it.
However, I did see you didn't go back to anything that was said right after Hamburg.
That, along with Klinsmann's announcement that the World Cup squad would be selected for the participants in this camp are the keys to my fury over this situation.........
footyfan1
07 Mar 2006, 08:20 PM
SNIP!!
the snake has bitten:cool:
Good!!
Now crawl back under your funny rock, snake! :D
arthur d
07 Mar 2006, 08:21 PM
Well, Paul Breitner said he had been offered the job, but then he criticized the way DFB did things, and they rescinded the job offer to him and basically handed it to Ribbeck.
I used to call Ribbeck's "Braun's Puppet" because of this.
I was actually quite happy when I read about Breitner, but that happiness was short lived. Not the best person to represent Germany to the media anyway, and unfortunately that plays a big role. But yeah, Egidius' senility cost us dearly.
arthur d
07 Mar 2006, 08:26 PM
However, I did see you didn't go back to anything that was said right after Hamburg.
The last one was after Hamburg I believe:
Wörns: We had a long discussion a few months ago in Hamburg. At that time he told me that he knows the way I play and that he will test the young players. The whole thing wasn´t about my performance, he said. Shortly afterwards he said in public that Köln´s Lukas Sinkiewicz was "a step ahead of me". That´s when I reacted publicly for the first time, and I think that didn´t go down very well with him. There has never been a clear instruction for me. The way Klinsmann has handled this is dishonest and insincere.
That's clearly evidence in favour of Klinsmann and against Woerns.
JeffS
07 Mar 2006, 09:04 PM
Again, I don't have time for it. Go with what you truly believe. No need to patronize me. I have my information and I trust it.
However, I did see you didn't go back to anything that was said right after Hamburg.
That, along with Klinsmann's announcement that the World Cup squad would be selected for the participants in this camp are the keys to my fury over this situation.........
I certainly wasn't trying to patronize you. If you felt I did, I sincerely apologize.
I couldn't find anything on the Hamburg meeting specifically. In Google I typed stuff like "Klinsmann Woerns Hamburg meeting", "Woerns Klinsman row", etc etc. Nothing. But I did find the Woerns interview on the BVB site, and Woerns himself said that Klinsmann told him he was going to test the young guys. That's what I have to go by, and what you've told me. And yes, I believe you, and no, I'm not patronizing you.
JeffS
07 Mar 2006, 09:31 PM
Hey, completely off topic, but ...
Since Klinsmann is into the speed game, and most of the guys, young or not, that he's selecting are not fast, what about BVB's David Odonkor?
Yeah, he's very young and unproven. But what else is new for Klinsmann's selections?
And Odonkor has speed to burn. And he can run all night. And he is a good right winger. And he has some skills. And he's pretty creative. And, if I'm not mistaken, he's played for the German youth team.
I saw him a few weeks ago in the BVB-Werder game, and man was I impressed. Odonkor was raw, but he was so fast. And he never stopped running.
With Klinsmann's system, he could be a great fit.
footyfan1
08 Mar 2006, 10:14 AM
Hey, completely off topic, but ...
Since Klinsmann is into the speed game, and most of the guys, young or not, that he's selecting are not fast, what about BVB's David Odonkor?
Yeah, he's very young and unproven. But what else is new for Klinsmann's selections?
And Odonkor has speed to burn. And he can run all night. And he is a good right winger. And he has some skills. And he's pretty creative. And, if I'm not mistaken, he's played for the German youth team.
I saw him a few weeks ago in the BVB-Werder game, and man was I impressed. Odonkor was raw, but he was so fast. And he never stopped running.
With Klinsmann's system, he could be a great fit.
Forrest Gump never stopped running either. ;)
Simply put, Forrest Odonokor isn't good enough yet.
footyfan1
08 Mar 2006, 10:17 AM
The last one was after Hamburg I believe:
Wörns: We had a long discussion a few months ago in Hamburg. At that time he told me that he knows the way I play and that he will test the young players. The whole thing wasn´t about my performance, he said. Shortly afterwards he said in public that Köln´s Lukas Sinkiewicz was "a step ahead of me". That´s when I reacted publicly for the first time, and I think that didn´t go down very well with him. There has never been a clear instruction for me. The way Klinsmann has handled this is dishonest and insincere.
That's clearly evidence in favour of Klinsmann and against Woerns.
I said 'Right After Hamburg'. The interviews they both gave right afterwards. Of course Klinsi told him he was going to play the youngsters. He also told him he'd get his chance again to make the team. Then, Klinsi goes out and announces to the world that he's going to select the World Cup roster from the players AT THIS CAMP.
A camp he didn't invite Woerns to.
What part of this are you guys not getting or just simply refusing to acknowledge????
You know what? Believe what you want to. I'm done.
JeffS
08 Mar 2006, 10:57 AM
I said 'Right After Hamburg'. The interviews they both gave right afterwards. Of course Klinsi told him he was going to play the youngsters. He also told him he'd get his chance again to make the team. Then, Klinsi goes out and announces to the world that he's going to select the World Cup roster from the players AT THIS CAMP.
A camp he didn't invite Woerns to.
What part of this are you guys not getting or just simply refusing to acknowledge????
You know what? Believe what you want to. I'm done.
Okay, that's pretty convincing, assuming, of course, Klinsi said that (and I do believe you).
Question: When Klinsmann said he would select his WC roster from players at this camp, which he didn't invite Woerns to, was that before or after Woerns' blow up in the press? I'm just asking because the timeline is important.
As for (Forrest) Odonkor, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't eventually make the German nats. It won't happen for this WC because, as you say, he isn't good enough yet. But the raw speed that Odonkor posesses is something that is in very short supply among German players. He also has skills. In the games I've watched, I saw him burn defenders a number of times.
footyfan1
08 Mar 2006, 11:11 AM
Okay, that's pretty convincing, assuming, of course, Klinsi said that (and I do believe you).
Question: When Klinsmann said he would select his WC roster from players at this camp, which he didn't invite Woerns to, was that before or after Woerns' blow up in the press? I'm just asking because the timeline is important.
It was before. Actually, it shouldn't matter. Either way, Klinsmann lied to Woerns.
When he said he would select the World Cup team from the players at that camp, that made anything he told Christian Woerns about getting a shot at the team in Hamburg and out and out lie.
As for (Forrest) Odonkor, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't eventually make the German nats. It won't happen for this WC because, as you say, he isn't good enough yet. But the raw speed that Odonkor posesses is something that is in very short supply among German players. He also has skills. In the games I've watched, I saw him burn defenders a number of times.
Odonkor has very limited skills right now. His first touch and overall ball control are horrible. But what he does well, he does VERY WELL. He's clearly a much better player than he was a year ago, but nowhere ready for senior international football yet either.
I can't say whether he will or won't get there, but I will say it seems he's "hit a wall". How he deals with the rest of the season will tell a lot.
We always seem to assume that young players will get better. In reality, many never do. Odonkor has a lot to do to convince me he'll become better.
But, he has the right trainer to learn under in Bert van Marwijk.
If we discuss this further, maybe we'll want to move it to the "David Odonkor" thread at the BVB sub-forum?
JeffS
08 Mar 2006, 12:00 PM
If we discuss this further, maybe we'll want to move it to the "David Odonkor" thread at the BVB sub-forum?
I'll see over there.
As for Klinsi/Woerns - You're right and I'm wrong. Klinsi did lie to him, if he did in fact say that he has his WC roster set based on the players he had at this camp, and he said that before the Woerns blow up. If he said it afterward, then he didn't lie, because there are already other quotes of Klinsi saying he was no longer considering Woerns due to his blow ups in the press. But you win, I lose - not that there was anything to lose, I'm just a pain in the @ss in rasing objections when someone claims an otherwise well regarded person is a lying coward.
footyfan1
08 Mar 2006, 12:29 PM
As for Klinsi/Woerns - You're right and I'm wrong. Klinsi did lie to him, if he did in fact say that he has his WC roster set based on the players he had at this camp, and he said that before the Woerns blow up. If he said it afterward, then he didn't lie, because there are already other quotes of Klinsi saying he was no longer considering Woerns due to his blow ups in the press. But you win, I lose - not that there was anything to lose, I'm just a pain in the @ss in rasing objections when someone claims an otherwise well regarded person is a lying coward.
Defending your guy. People do that all the time. And hey, that's just my opinion of him.
I think it all could have been avoided had Klinsmann just dropped Woerns after Hamburg or at least explained to Woerns why he wasn't being called up this time.
If Klinsmann changed his mind between Hamburg and the last camp and told Woerns about it man to man, then I wouldn't have any problem with this except for the fact that there not one German defender in better form than Christian Woerns right now. I certainly wouldn't have lost any respect for Klinsmann. I would have simply disagreed with this decision.
But from everything I know about the situation, I come to the conclusion that Klinsmann was dishonest with Woerns. I agree with you that Woerns should have handled it better, but I think you have to remember that the man not only felt betrayed, but also humiliated on the highest level.
This is why I can sympathize with Christian Woerns. And why I'm so bitterly angry at Klinsmann.
After all. How would you feel if you were fighting for a national spot and the coach, after promising you a shot, never gives you the shot and on top of that, picks a guy who can't even get into your lineup ahead of you or next to you over you for the national team????
Be honest about it.......
JeffS
08 Mar 2006, 02:08 PM
Defending your guy. People do that all the time. And hey, that's just my opinion of him.
I think it all could have been avoided had Klinsmann just dropped Woerns after Hamburg or at least explained to Woerns why he wasn't being called up this time.
If Klinsmann changed his mind between Hamburg and the last camp and told Woerns about it man to man, then I wouldn't have any problem with this except for the fact that there not one German defender in better form than Christian Woerns right now. I certainly wouldn't have lost any respect for Klinsmann. I would have simply disagreed with this decision.
But from everything I know about the situation, I come to the conclusion that Klinsmann was dishonest with Woerns. I agree with you that Woerns should have handled it better, but I think you have to remember that the man not only felt betrayed, but also humiliated on the highest level.
This is why I can sympathize with Christian Woerns. And why I'm so bitterly angry at Klinsmann.
After all. How would you feel if you were fighting for a national spot and the coach, after promising you a shot, never gives you the shot and on top of that, picks a guy who can't even get into your lineup ahead of you or next to you over you for the national team????
Be honest about it.......
Honestly, I would be very very very pissed. Through all of this, I've always been very sympathetic to Woerns' point of view (even though it might not have seemed like in my posts).
The bit of chosing bench warming CMetz over first team starting, in good form, Woerns, has to especially sting for Woerns.
But I can also see Klinsmann's point of view.
To begin with, he was the only person who had the kahunas to take the Germany position in the first place - something no one else wanted to touch. With that comes the mountainous task of rebuilding a program that was (is) in a shambles, with young guys, many of whom are mediocre talents, and constantly under the microscope, under constant pressure, receiving constant criticism, meanwhile trying to bring up the level of play of the youngsters and maintain team spirit (something that has been severly lacking in the German nats for the better part of a decade). All of this while fans and the media have the completely unreasonable expectation of you winning the WC, based on Germany's illustrious past.
Under these conditions, which no one else wanted to be a part of, the very last thing you want to deal with is a whining player constantly criticizing you in the press.
Plus, I really think that Woerns was never in Klinsmann's long term plans. Klinsmann is (rightfully) trying to totally shake things up.
First, he's trying to bring in the younger guys and bring up their level of play, something Vogts, Ribbeck, and Voeller failed to do.
Second, he made the GK position open competition, something that that has spurred on the the otherwise complacent Kahn and motivated the needy Lehmann, and both have improved.
Third, Klinsmann is trying to move Germany away from the stale, bunker style, slow, predictable style that German teams have become known for, and introduce a hard running, fast, attacking, TOR (totall football) style of play. With this style of play comes the need for younger, faster legs, and players that play have an attacking mentality.
Christian Woerns does not fit that mold. Christian Woerns, as solid as he is, fits the old mode of a traditional, stay back, center back, and he is comparitively slow on the international scene, and his older legs probably won't be able to keep up over the long run with the hard running, attacking style.
So Woerns never really was the right kind of player to fit into Klinsmann's "vision". But nonetheless I'm sure Klinsmann always wanted to keep Woerns as a viable option, in case the younger guys (Huth, Mertesacker, Metzelder, etc) did not develop as rapidly as needed.
All that said, it appears that Klinsmann was never really up front with Woerns about how he saw Woerns' roll with the German nats, even though he did tell him that he intended to test the younger guys. Klinsmann ended up (probably unintentionally) leading Woerns on, and ultimately betrayed him. Meanwhile, Woerns did not help the situation at all with his whining and criticisms in the press.
So, Klinsmann probably did lie, or did not tell the whole truth of his intentions, to Woerns.
But it's now behind us, and them, unless the BVB officials are successful in their quest to have a round table with them, Klinsmann, and Woerns, and iron everything out. But let's not hold our breath on that.
And quite frankly, my previous opinons about changing to a 3-5-2 system, with two defensive mids, would probably be wrong at this point. Klinsmann should stick with his vision, and not change direction mid stream, especially this close to the WC.
So, here's my line up that conforms to Klinsmann's vision, as if anyone cares ;)
------------------------ Kahn (or Lehmann) -----------------------
Owomoyela ------- Mertesacker -------- Farnenhorst -------- Lahm
Frings ------------------------ Kehl ---------------------- Borowski
------------------------------ Ballack ---------------------------------
------------------- Poldolski -------------- Klose --------------------
Some things of note:
In the back, I went for Mert and Farenhorst over Huth and Metzelder, simply becasue both are playing first team for their clubs, and mostly playing very well. Mert is very big, and not fast, but he seems quicker on his feet than Huth, and he's pretty good going forward. Farenhorst has been very good for Werder. I went for Owo over Friedrich or Hinkel on the right due to the speed factor, and he's in good form. Lahm is obvious - by far the best left back Germany has, and a phenom.
I went for Kehl as a true defensive mid, something Klinsmann has been neglecting (using Frings in that role, with Schneider or Deisler on the right). I went with Frings on the right because of regular first team action, Champions League experience, good form, and versatility. Although the ever reliable and skillfull Schneider would be an equally good choice. I went for Borowski on the left for the same reasons as Frings, and I'm really high on Borowski's skills right now - great shot, dribbling skills, passing, creativity, hard running, good tackler, the complete package. I really think that in a few years time Borowski might reach Ballack type standards. Bayern think so too, being that he's on their "possible acquistions" wish list.
Speaking of which, Ballack is the obvious choice for attacking mid. By far Germany's best player, and one of the best players in the world.
Klose is obvious as one of the starting strikers as he's leading the BL in scoring, and Poldoski is obvious as a true phenom (I really believe he's Germany's version of Owen or Rooney). Hanke is another true phenom who I'm high on - everytime I see him in games or highlights he does something great.
The Old Lady Hertha
08 Mar 2006, 02:14 PM
I'm just going to remark on a couple of things because I need to study real soon ;)
Christian Woerns does not fit that mold. Christian Woerns, as solid as he is, fits the old mode of a traditional, stay back, center back, and he is comparitively slow on the international scene, and his older legs probably won't be able to keep up over the long run with the hard running, attacking style.
Klose is obvious as one of the starting strikers as he's leading the BL in scoring, and Poldoski is obvious as a true phenom (I really believe he's Germany's version of Owen or Rooney). Hanke is another true phenom who I'm high on - everytime I see him in games or highlights he does something great.
@ Woerns: do you want a center back to move up field? Neither Huth or Mertesacker do that either. Woerns may not fit the young squad, but at the position he plays, why would you want him to do anything else? He defends and thats it
@ Podolski: funny you should make a Rooney comparison; Rooney first came out in Everton first year, everyone thought he was going to be the shit, like Podolski. Rooney, like Podolski, the next season disappointed greatly for Everton on a team that nearly got relegated. The next season, Rooney gets sold to Manchester United and his career takes off.
See a pattern? :D ;)
JeffS
08 Mar 2006, 02:29 PM
I'm just going to remark on a couple of things because I need to study real soon ;)
@ Woerns: do you want a center back to move up field? Neither Huth or Mertesacker do that either. Woerns may not fit the young squad, but at the position he plays, why would you want him to do anything else? He defends and thats it
@ Podolski: funny you should make a Rooney comparison; Rooney first came out in Everton first year, everyone thought he was going to be the shit, like Podolski. Rooney, like Podolski, the next season disappointed greatly for Everton on a team that nearly got relegated. The next season, Rooney gets sold to Manchester United and his career takes off.
See a pattern? :D ;)
Yes. Bayern might get Poldolski, and assuming Poldi still gets tons of PT, his career will really take off as well.
footyfan1
08 Mar 2006, 03:03 PM
Honestly, I would be very very very pissed. Through all of this, I've always been very sympathetic to Woerns' point of view (even though it might not have seemed like in my posts).
The bit of chosing bench warming CMetz over first team starting, in good form, Woerns, has to especially sting for Woerns.
But I can also see Klinsmann's point of view.
To begin with, he was the only person who had the kahunas to take the Germany position in the first place - something no one else wanted to touch. With that comes the mountainous task of rebuilding a program that was (is) in a shambles, with young guys, many of whom are mediocre talents, and constantly under the microscope, under constant pressure, receiving constant criticism, meanwhile trying to bring up the level of play of the youngsters and maintain team spirit (something that has been severly lacking in the German nats for the better part of a decade). All of this while fans and the media have the completely unreasonable expectation of you winning the WC, based on Germany's illustrious past.
Under these conditions, which no one else wanted to be a part of, the very last thing you want to deal with is a whining player constantly criticizing you in the press.
Plus, I really think that Woerns was never in Klinsmann's long term plans. Klinsmann is (rightfully) trying to totally shake things up.
First, he's trying to bring in the younger guys and bring up their level of play, something Vogts, Ribbeck, and Voeller failed to do.
Second, he made the GK position open competition, something that that has spurred on the the otherwise complacent Kahn and motivated the needy Lehmann, and both have improved.
Third, Klinsmann is trying to move Germany away from the stale, bunker style, slow, predictable style that German teams have become known for, and introduce a hard running, fast, attacking, TOR (totall football) style of play. With this style of play comes the need for younger, faster legs, and players that play have an attacking mentality.
Dude, I'm not talking about Klinsmann's entire body of work. I'm talking about this one situation. I respected Klinsmann for stepping up, taking over and making necessary changes.
However, that wasn't the discussion between us.
Christian Woerns does not fit that mold. Christian Woerns, as solid as he is, fits the old mode of a traditional, stay back, center back, and he is comparitively slow on the international scene, and his older legs probably won't be able to keep up over the long run with the hard running, attacking style.
I agree with that. However, what do you do when the guys you think fit the bill aren't any freakin' good and this guy is at least experienced and in great form??
So Woerns never really was the right kind of player to fit into Klinsmann's "vision". But nonetheless I'm sure Klinsmann always wanted to keep Woerns as a viable option, in case the younger guys (Huth, Mertesacker, Metzelder, etc) did not develop as rapidly as needed.
And he told Woerns that. However, he also assured Woerns and told everyone that Woerns would have another shot at making the team. Then, we find out that Woerns wasn't invited to the camp Klinsmann was using to select the team.
What part of Klinsmann lied to, betrayed and embarrassed Christian Woerns at the highest level do you not understand??
What's worse is that it all could have been avoided with one man-to-man conversation. All Klinsmann had to say is:
"Christian, listen, before it is announced, I need to tell you that I've changed my mind and you will not be considered for the World Cup side. After considering our options, you really just don't fit the plan we intend to utilize at the tournament. Sorry about that."
All Klinsmann had to do was have that talk with Woerns, not by phone, but man-to-man, face-to-face and I'd be sitting here calling Woerns a "crybaby bitch" if he still insisted on complaining afterwards.
After all, Klinsmann is the boss and reserves the right to change his mind. However, letting the player find out through the press is downright cowardly in my opinion.
All that said, it appears that Klinsmann was never really up front with Woerns about how he saw Woerns' roll with the German nats, even though he did tell him that he intended to test the younger guys. Klinsmann ended up (probably unintentionally) leading Woerns on, and ultimately betrayed him. Meanwhile, Woerns did not help the situation at all with his whining and criticisms in the press.
Stop right there man. There's the damned disconnect.
Woerns complained about being dropped for the Hamburg camp. Klinsi should have dropped his ass right there!
Instead, Klinsi lays out the "young guns" plan, but assures Woerns he'll get another shot. Woerns didn't utter one damned peep again until he found out through the f#ckin' press that he wasn't invited to the camp the trainer is using to make the World Cup selections from. That is when Woerns exploded.
Between the time they talked in Hamburg and the time Woerns found out he'd been lied to, he didn't utter one word. He just went out and played his ass off.
You are talking as if Woerns has been whining and complaining in the press the entire time and that's not true. Woerns went off AFTER he'd been betrayed and embarrassed.
So, Klinsmann probably did lie, or did not tell the whole truth of his intentions, to Woerns.
There's no "probably" in it......
But it's now behind us, and them, unless the BVB officials are successful in their quest to have a round table with them, Klinsmann, and Woerns, and iron everything out. But let's not hold our breath on that.
I don't like that BVB officials are doing this, but I understand why. Woerns has been BVB's best defender and arguably our best player since the Hamburg incident. They have to be afraid that Woerns attitude and form will go into the toilet over this incident.
And if it does, if you think I'm pissed off at Jurgen Klinsmann now, as they used to say in the old days, "You ain't seen nothin' yet!!" :mad:
And quite frankly, my previous opinons about changing to a 3-5-2 system, with two defensive mids, would probably be wrong at this point. Klinsmann should stick with his vision, and not change direction mid stream, especially this close to the WC.
So, here's my line up that conforms to Klinsmann's vision, as if anyone cares ;)
------------------------ Kahn (or Lehmann) -----------------------
Owomoyela ------- Mertesacker -------- Farnenhorst -------- Lahm
Frings ------------------------ Kehl ---------------------- Borowski
------------------------------ Ballack ---------------------------------
------------------- Poldolski -------------- Klose --------------------
I like it, but I still think they'll get killed in central defense. I still feel they just aren't ready for world class football. I'm also pissed that Klinsi didn't give Volz a real look.
Some things of note:
In the back, I went for Mert and Farenhorst over Huth and Metzelder, simply becasue both are playing first team for their clubs, and mostly playing very well. Mert is very big, and not fast, but he seems quicker on his feet than Huth, and he's pretty good going forward. Farenhorst has been very good for Werder. I went for Owo over Friedrich or Hinkel on the right due to the speed factor, and he's in good form. Lahm is obvious - by far the best left back Germany has, and a phenom.
A "phenom"? We disagree there. Yes, Lahm is "obvious" and very good, but I think Ronaldinho is a "phenom". Ballack is a "phenom". I don't think Lahm has done enough to deserve that status.
Other than him, I think Deutschland are screwed defensively.......
I went for Kehl as a true defensive mid, something Klinsmann has been neglecting (using Frings in that role, with Schneider or Deisler on the right). I went with Frings on the right because of regular first team action, Champions League experience, good form, and versatility. Although the ever reliable and skillfull Schneider would be an equally good choice. I went for Borowski on the left for the same reasons as Frings, and I'm really high on Borowski's skills right now - great shot, dribbling skills, passing, creativity, hard running, good tackler, the complete package.
Agree on Kehl and Frings. I'm not high on Schneider at all. But like Woerns, what do you do when you have nothing better??
I really think that in a few years time Borowski might reach Ballack type standards. Bayern think so too, being that he's on their "possible acquistions" wish list.
I don't agree. I like Borowski, but don't rate him nearly as high as you do.
Speaking of which, Ballack is the obvious choice for attacking mid. By far Germany's best player, and one of the best players in the world.
Now that, my friend, is "obvious"! ;)
Klose is obvious as one of the starting strikers as he's leading the BL in scoring, and Poldoski is obvious as a true phenom (I really believe he's Germany's version of Owen or Rooney). Hanke is another true phenom who I'm high on - everytime I see him in games or highlights he does something great.
Agree on Klose. And I also see we definitely have different standards for the use of the word "phenom". Podolski has been anything but a "phenom" this season, though he's starting to show signs of life under Latour. Hanke is a very good young striker, but a "phenom"?
I think they are both very good, but well short of "phenominal".
If Germany truly had three "phenoms" and one world class player, I doubt there'd be as much panic as there is right now.....