Klinsmann and die Nationalmannschaft

[JeffS]

I pretty much agree with arthur. Except for Ballack, Podoslki and Lahm there just isn't much talent. Most players are just average Bundesliga players. It's sad that there's even talk about players like Neuville, Brdaric or Sinkiewicz making the team.

Look at the 90 team that had players like Brehme, Buchwald, Matthäus, Häßler, Littbarski and then Klinsmann and Völler up front.

This team is not even close. That's not only a question of will and mental toughness.

I even feel for the players. I do believe they will play their hearts out but I doubt that will be enough to go far and I think the majority of German football fans are extremely pessimistic right now or even panicking.

This isn't the Germany of old, that's for sure. I remember through the 70's, 80's, and early 90's they always had world class players on every part of the pitch, with plenty of talented back ups. That 90 team is a perfect example. The early 80's team led by KH Rumminigge was awesome as well. Then of course the 74 team, led by Muller and Beckenbauer was amazing.

Now Germany have Ballack and Kahn, two phenoms with yet unrealized potential in Poldolski and Lahm (maybe throw in Schweinsteiger and Borowski), then a bunch of very average Bundesliga players, some who don't even start for their clubs.

Back to the German defense - Klinsmann desperately needs Woerns. Also, this team could really use Hamann back. Hamann played great last year for Liverpool in the EPL and CL, and is in great form this year. Over the last 4 or 5 years, Liverpool's fortunes seemed to be directly tied to whether or not Hamann was healthy and playing well. When Hamann was out, Liverpool struggled. With him in, they've won trophies. Surely Hamann is not the star of Liverpool (Gerrard is), but he seems to be glue, the one that holds everything together, and the one that free's up Gerrard. Hamann can do the same for Germany.

[footyfan1]

I pretty much agree with arthur. Except for Ballack, Podoslki and Lahm there just isn't much talent. Most players are just average Bundesliga players. It's sad that there's even talk about players like Neuville, Brdaric or Sinkiewicz making the team.

Look at the 90 team that had players like Brehme, Buchwald, Matthäus, Häßler, Littbarski and then Klinsmann and Völler up front.

This team is not even close. That's not only a question of will and mental toughness.

Come on. I wasn't looking at the 1990 team. That team was loaded. One of the better sides in recent history.

I was thinking the teams of the later 70s, 80s, and later 96, 2000 and 2002.

You guys are acting like I said this is one of the most talented Germany sides in history or something. That's not what I said. I just think they do have talent and not enough heart.

Sort of like my club team at the moment. All talent, very little heart.


I even feel for the players. I do believe they will play their hearts out but I doubt that will be enough to go far and I think the majority of German football fans are extremely pessimistic right now or even panicking.

Don't blame you. Not one bit.

[arthur d]

Remember the talks they had in Hamburg after the last time Woerns wasn't called up??

After that, both Woerns AND Klinsmann acknowledged that they agreed Woerns would have another shot. Then, Klinsmann names the players to his camp and says he'll select the World Cup roster from those players. Woerns wasn't on that list, nor did he play a match after the Hamburg talks.

I believe it's partly Woerns' own fault. He's complained too much in the past, and now he's basically closed the door himself. After I read Woerns' comments I thought 'bummer, this was it then'. If he hadn't said what he did, there would have been a big chance for a call up after the Italy disaster. Still, Klinsmann is too stubborn as well.

Here is Netzer agreeing with this: "Es war meines Wissens nicht entschieden, ob Klinsmann ihn nicht noch dazu genommen hätte in einen Kader von 23 Spielern. Aber Wörns hat die Entscheidung dann selbst herbeigeführt, indem er sich so verhalten hat, wie man es nicht macht."

[Delirious]

Everything than a clear win would be a huge Disappointmen..no Question.

---------------------Kahn----------------------------
---Lahm--------Metzelder-------Mertesacker----Jansen
----------------------Kehl----------------------------
----Borowski----------Ballack-----------Schweinsteiger
------------------Klose-------Podolski----------------

[footyfan1]

I believe it's partly Woerns' own fault. He's complained too much in the past, and now he's basically closed the door himself. After I read Woerns' comments I thought 'bummer, this was it then'. If he hadn't said what he did, there would have been a big chance for a call up after the Italy disaster. Still, Klinsmann is too stubborn as well.

Here is Netzer agreeing with this: "Es war meines Wissens nicht entschieden, ob Klinsmann ihn nicht noch dazu genommen hätte in einen Kader von 23 Spielern. Aber Wörns hat die Entscheidung dann selbst herbeigeführt, indem er sich so verhalten hat, wie man es nicht macht."


I disagree with your take and I don't give a rat's ass about what Gunter Netzer has to say.

Arthur, I respect your view more than Netzer's.

If Klinsmann thinks the guy complains too much, then Klinsmann should be a man and tell him face to face. Then I don't have a problem with you saying that to the public if you ever intend to.

If Klinsmann didn't have any intention of bringing Worns up to the squad, then Klinsmann should have been a man and told him face to face. Then, I don't have a problem whatever Klinsmann tells the public.


Klinsmann had this opportunity in Hamburg and he obviously did neither of the things I suggested since he publicly stated that Woerns would be given a chance to make the squad.

This is all people making excuses for what is a major character flaw. After all, Woerns didn't make a peep about being called up after the Hamburg discussion. He just went out, played his ass off and showed that he belonged. He's outplayed every German defender.


Klinsmann is the one who didn't live up to his end of the bargain.

Not only that, Klinsmann added insult to injury by calling up Woerns' teammate who can't get his sorry ass off the bench!

For those of you who don't know who the sorry ass bench warmer is, it's Christoph Metzelder. Metzelder gets his club spot taken by a U-21 player who really isn't all that good (Brzenska) and Metzelder gets called up instead of Woerns???

Who the hell can blame Woerns for going off the way he did?? He had to be not only crushed, but totally embarrassed!

His national trainer just straight lied to him and even if Klinsmann changed his mind, which he is entitled to do, he should have been a f#cking MAN and told Woerns face to face.

You can have Klinsmann. I used to truly admire the guy. He was one of my all-time favorite players.

Now I think he's a lying f#cking coward. :mad:

[arthur d]

Don't get me wrong, I am also not too happy about some of the things Klinsmann has said and done. And I understand that Woerns lost his temper. But hey, people make mistakes. Calling Klinsmann a lying coward is clearly too extreme.

Apart from this let's not forget that although Woerns has been playing well, he's not really that great either. I always used to get nervous with him in the team (he has 'liability' written across his forehead in my opinion, a bit like Jens Lehmann :)... though Lehmann is actually great at the mo ). The fact that Woerns is even an option shows how pathetic the German defence is.

To address anothe rpost, Hamann hardly plays for Liverpool anymore. He used to be very good, but now he's just too slow. The CL final was a bit of an exception.

[ForeverRed]

I disagree with your take and I don't give a rat's ass about what Gunter Netzer has to say.

Arthur, I respect your view more than Netzer's.

If Klinsmann thinks the guy complains too much, then Klinsmann should be a man and tell him face to face. Then I don't have a problem with you saying that to the public if you ever intend to.

If Klinsmann didn't have any intention of bringing Worns up to the squad, then Klinsmann should have been a man and told him face to face. Then, I don't have a problem whatever Klinsmann tells the public.


Klinsmann had this opportunity in Hamburg and he obviously did neither of the things I suggested since he publicly stated that Woerns would be given a chance to make the squad.

This is all people making excuses for what is a major character flaw. After all, Woerns didn't make a peep about being called up after the Hamburg discussion. He just went out, played his ass off and showed that he belonged. He's outplayed every German defender.


Klinsmann is the one who didn't live up to his end of the bargain.

Not only that, Klinsmann added insult to injury by calling up Woerns' teammate who can't get his sorry ass off the bench!

For those of you who don't know who the sorry ass bench warmer is, it's Christoph Metzelder. Metzelder gets his club spot taken by a U-21 player who really isn't all that good (Brzenska) and Metzelder gets called up instead of Woerns???

Who the hell can blame Woerns for going off the way he did?? He had to be not only crushed, but totally embarrassed!

His national trainer just straight lied to him and even if Klinsmann changed his mind, which he is entitled to do, he should have been a f#cking MAN and told Woerns face to face.

You can have Klinsmann. I used to truly admire the guy. He was one of my all-time favorite players.

Now I think he's a lying f#cking coward. :mad:

Then I'm sure you'll appreciate this,

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=360903&cc=5901

Klinsman skipping a mandatory world cup workshop....tsk tsk tsk

Probably on a beach somewhere in SoCal........:mad:

[footyfan1]

Don't get me wrong, I am also not too happy about some of the things Klinsmann has said and done. And I understand that Woerns lost his temper. But hey, people make mistakes. Calling Klinsmann a lying coward is clearly too extreme.

I don't feel what Klinsmann did was a "mistake". This wasn't something he "forgot" on the spur of the moment.

I feel Klinsmann did this intentionally.

I feel Klinsmann had no intention of giving Woerns another chance and was too much of a cowardly chickens#it to tell the man to his face. He had every opportunity to do so.

So yes, to me, that does make Klinsmann a lying coward.



Apart from this let's not forget that although Woerns has been playing well, he's not really that great either. I always used to get nervous with him in the team (he has 'liability' written across his forehead in my opinion, a bit like Jens Lehmann :)... though Lehmann is actually great at the mo ). The fact that Woerns is even an option shows how pathetic the German defence is.

Agree, but when you have no one better, you don't screw with who is your best no matter how "bad" he might be compared to what everyone else has.

The fact is, we're not talking about what everyone else has and you are right, if Germany had anyone better, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And that theory really gets thrown out of the window when you see that Klinsmann called up a guy who sits on the bench behind Woerns at club level.

You can't see how insulting and embarrassing that has to be to Woerns???

Not even most Dortmund fans can get behind Metzelder being called up. Even BVB fans think that's stupid!

Believe me, if Woerns had already been told he wasn't in Klinsmann's plans by Klinsmann, I wouldn't have a problem with Woerns not being called up no matter how well Woerns is playing. If Woerns didn't deserve to be called up and Klinsmann told him that to his face, I wouldn't have a problem with Woerns not being called up either.

However, not only is Woerns more than deserving, he's been lied to and embarrassed by his trainer.

If I were Woerns, I'd be looking to kick Klinsmann's ass the next time I see him......

If I were Woerns, to me, this whole thing would be tantamount to a spit in the face.



To address another post, Hamann hardly plays for Liverpool anymore. He used to be very good, but now he's just too slow. The CL final was a bit of an exception.

Totally agree.

[JeffS]

Don't get me wrong, I am also not too happy about some of the things Klinsmann has said and done. And I understand that Woerns lost his temper. But hey, people make mistakes. Calling Klinsmann a lying coward is clearly too extreme.

Apart from this let's not forget that although Woerns has been playing well, he's not really that great either. I always used to get nervous with him in the team (he has 'liability' written across his forehead in my opinion, a bit like Jens Lehmann :)... though Lehmann is actually great at the mo ). The fact that Woerns is even an option shows how pathetic the German defence is.

To address anothe rpost, Hamann hardly plays for Liverpool anymore. He used to be very good, but now he's just too slow. The CL final was a bit of an exception.

I just watched a Liverpool game two days ago and Hamann was excellent.

Anyway, it's perhaps true that Hamann is now too old and slow for the international game.

Nevertheless, the German national team desperately needs a solid defensive mid (or two in a 3-5-2 system) to play in front of the week central defenders. If not Hamann, then Kehl and/or Baumann.

I also agree with footyfan1 in how Klinsmann has handled the whole Woerns situation. It appears at a distance that he was never fully straight with the guy.

Perhaps Klinsmann had decided a long time ago that Woerns just didn't have enough for the international game - too old and slow. And frankly, even though Woerns has been solid and arguably the best German central defender of the moment, Woerns has never looked all that spectacular for Germany. He's one of those players that's very good at club level, but mediocre or bad at international level. So, Klinsmann probably decided to try to bring along the unproven younger players who he saw as having the potential of being very good for the Nats, i.e. Huth, Mertesacker, Metzelder (hoping he regains pre achilies form).

Klinsmann played his cards towards high potential over proven mediocrity. Arguably, that is a worthwhile gamble.

However, it appears that Klinsmann was never straight with Woerns about this strategy.

But who's to say what exactly was said in the Hamburg meeting - only Klinsmann and Woerns know. We can't fully judge based on what has been said in the press. Thus, I'm not going to jump on the "Klinsmann is a flat out liar" bandwagon. That is patently unfair.

I will say, however, that Klinsmann has not handled the situation well. But neither has Woerns. Whining in the press will get you nowhere with any coach - it makes it look like you are trying to "show up" the coach, and it gives them no choice but to dismiss you or come down on you.

Does anyone think that Hitzfeld would have put up with a player complaining in the press about his selections, or implying he's a liar? I don't think so.

So realistically, at this point the whole Woerns affair should be a complete non-issue. It's pretty clear now that Woerns was never really in Klinsmann's long term plans, probably because Klinsmann wants to go with youth and the future. And now that they've had the public spat, Woerns will not be playing for Germany while Klinsmann is in charge. So it behooves everyone to just focus on who Klinsmann will consider and who is available and who is playing well. It's slim pickings, but that's life. But the aforementioned 3-5-2 with two defensive mids will go a long way toward plugging the huge hole.

[AllReD]

Just a simple question. How much is the DFB kicking themselves is the ass for hiring Klinsmann?

I mean i just cannot understand the trips to CA and not even attending coaching meetings. I me WTF is that. Ive lose every ounce of repect for him.

[JeffS]

I don't feel what Klinsmann did was a "mistake". This wasn't something he "forgot" on the spur of the moment.

I feel Klinsmann did this intentionally.

I feel Klinsmann had no intention of giving Woerns another chance and was too much of a cowardly chickens#it to tell the man to his face. He had every opportunity to do so.

So yes, to me, that does make Klinsmann a lying coward.





Agree, but when you have no one better, you don't screw with who is your best no matter how "bad" he might be compared to what everyone else has.

The fact is, we're not talking about what everyone else has and you are right, if Germany had anyone better, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And that theory really gets thrown out of the window when you see that Klinsmann called up a guy who sits on the bench behind Woerns at club level.

You can't see how insulting and embarrassing that has to be to Woerns???

Not even most Dortmund fans can get behind Metzelder being called up. Even BVB fans think that's stupid!

Believe me, if Woerns had already been told he wasn't in Klinsmann's plans by Klinsmann, I wouldn't have a problem with Woerns not being called up no matter how well Woerns is playing. If Woerns didn't deserve to be called up and Klinsmann told him that to his face, I wouldn't have a problem with Woerns not being called up either.

However, not only is Woerns more than deserving, he's been lied to and embarrassed by his trainer.

If I were Woerns, I'd be looking to kick Klinsmann's ass the next time I see him......

If I were Woerns, to me, this whole thing would be tantamount to a spit in the face.





Totally agree.


footyfan1, it appears that you know exactly what was said in private between Klinsmann and Woerns, either in the Hamburg meeting or before, since you are completely convinced that Klinsmann lied to Woerns. I'm not disputing your stance, I'm just curious if you have link to back it up - I'd like to check it out.

If you are basing your stance that Klinsmann flat out lied to Woerns based on what has been said in the press, then I'm going to call you on it and say it's not fair to do so. For all you or I or anyone else knows, Woerns could be lying or embellishing himself. For all we know, Klinsmann could have been telling Woerns all along that he's favoring the younger guys in order to build up Germany's future, and maybe Woerns simply did not want to accept that idea. But maybe Klinsmann did lie to Woerns. I don't know. I do know that I'm not coming to any conclusions based on what has been said in the press.

But if you have a link that can show conclusively that Klinsmann lied to Woerns, I'd love to see it.

[footyfan1]

I just watched a Liverpool game two days ago and Hamann was excellent.

Anyway, it's perhaps true that Hamann is now too old and slow for the international game.

Which match was that? I must have missed it. Not that I'm a big Liverpool fan anyhow......


Nevertheless, the German national team desperately needs a solid defensive mid (or two in a 3-5-2 system) to play in front of the week central defenders. If not Hamann, then Kehl and/or Baumann.

Now, I'll admit that as a BVB fan, I'm biased toward Kehl and do think he's playing well enough to earn a shot, but since he had no conversations with Klinsmann, you don't see me complaining about him.


I also agree with footyfan1 in how Klinsmann has handled the whole Woerns situation. It appears at a distance that he was never fully straight with the guy.

It wasn't "at a distance". They both spoke publicly after Hamburg.


Perhaps Klinsmann had decided a long time ago that Woerns just didn't have enough for the international game - too old and slow. And frankly, even though Woerns has been solid and arguably the best German central defender of the moment, Woerns has never looked all that spectacular for Germany. He's one of those players that's very good at club level, but mediocre or bad at international level. So, Klinsmann probably decided to try to bring along the unproven younger players who he saw as having the potential of being very good for the Nats, i.e. Huth, Mertesacker, Metzelder (hoping he regains pre achilies form).

Klinsmann played his cards towards high potential over proven mediocrity. Arguably, that is a worthwhile gamble.

Potential has never won s#it. And everything these young defenders have shown to this point has proved they weren't ready. What's wrong with a mixture of young and old?? A veteran on the pitch to help steady the young stallions??


However, it appears that Klinsmann was never straight with Woerns about this strategy.

But who's to say what exactly was said in the Hamburg meeting - only Klinsmann and Woerns know. We can't fully judge based on what has been said in the press. Thus, I'm not going to jump on the "Klinsmann is a flat out liar" bandwagon. That is patently unfair.

Not after what they both said after Hamburg. Klinsmann told the world they'd patched up their differences and Woerns would be getting a shot in the near future. That shot never came. Instead of Klinsmann being a man and telling Woerns, "I don't want complainers on my team", Klinsmann told him what he needed to to get Woerns to be quiet. Then Klinsmann screwed him.

What's "not fair" about this?? What's "not known"?! They came out and told the public what I'm saying!


I will say, however, that Klinsmann has not handled the situation well. But neither has Woerns. Whining in the press will get you nowhere with any coach - it makes it look like you are trying to "show up" the coach, and it gives them no choice but to dismiss you or come down on you.

This is bulls#it. If Klinsmann were going to rightfully dismiss Woerns for complaining, he should have done it before the Hamburg meeting. Klinsmann would have been completely justified in doing so. Even I said Woerns was a b!tch for complaining so much then. However, they met and Klinsmann told Woerns and the public that Woerns would indeed get another chance.

If Klinsmann were a f#cking MAN, he would have thrown Woerns out right there.

No. Klinsmann told Woerns what he needed to get him quiet after Hamburg, thought Woerns would suck at club level and would use that as an excuse to leave him out. When that didn't happen, Klinsmann just left him out, not even being man enough to tell the guy one on one or face to face.



Does anyone think that Hitzfeld would have put up with a player complaining in the press about his selections, or implying he's a liar? I don't think so.

Hitzfeld wouldn't have let it get past Hamburg. Again, had Klinsmann dropped Woerns then, no problem. But then he lied and embarrassed the guy. Do you think Hitzfeld would have done that??


So realistically, at this point the whole Woerns affair should be a complete non-issue. It's pretty clear now that Woerns was never really in Klinsmann's long term plans, probably because Klinsmann wants to go with youth and the future. And now that they've had the public spat, Woerns will not be playing for Germany while Klinsmann is in charge.

Klinsmann should have just said that. You are writing as if we don't know what came out of the Hamburg meeting. That's where you're wrong.

We do know what came out of that meeting.....

And that's what makes Klinsmann a lying coward.




So it behooves everyone to just focus on who Klinsmann will consider and who is available and who is playing well. It's slim pickings, but that's life. But the aforementioned 3-5-2 with two defensive mids will go a long way toward plugging the huge hole.

See, what you don't get here is that some of the players have possibly also lost some respect for Klinsmann and no matter what formation he employs, that will potentially hurt the team.

Possibly not against the USA because they will be playing for "German Pride" then. But it will rear it's head again and more than likely at the tournament.

Michael Ballack was being "politically correct" in saying he "understands Woerns". But doesn't it carry some weight that the team's undisputed top player has empathy for Woerns??

Others haven't come out and said as much yet, but they have to be thinking, "If Klinsmann can lie to a veteran like Christian and embarrass him like that, what will he say/do to me??"

It's fine if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, but wait and see. I'm almost certain Klinsmann has lost at least some respect from some of his players because of this situation.......

[footyfan1]

footyfan1, it appears that you know exactly what was said in private between Klinsmann and Woerns, either in the Hamburg meeting or before, since you are completely convinced that Klinsmann lied to Woerns. I'm not disputing your stance, I'm just curious if you have link to back it up - I'd like to check it out.

If you are basing your stance that Klinsmann flat out lied to Woerns based on what has been said in the press, then I'm going to call you on it and say it's not fair to do so. For all you or I or anyone else knows, Woerns could be lying or embellishing himself. For all we know, Klinsmann could have been telling Woerns all along that he's favoring the younger guys in order to build up Germany's future, and maybe Woerns simply did not want to accept that idea. But maybe Klinsmann did lie to Woerns. I don't know. I do know that I'm not coming to any conclusions based on what has been said in the press.

But if you have a link that can show conclusively that Klinsmann lied to Woerns, I'd love to see it.


Klinsmann and Woerns both spoke to the press. It wasn't "press speculation", they were quoted. I don't have time to go digging right now. I read it and saw it as it happened. Was covered by most German media outlets and at the BVB Offical Site (www.borussia-dortmund.de).

You can search if you like.

And again, if Klinsmann were a MAN and he had problems with Woerns, he should have dropped his ass in Hamburg.

A MAN, who is a respectable authority figure and person, wouldn't have let it go this far if his intention was to not play the guy from the start.

[JeffS]

Which match was that? I must have missed it. Not that I'm a big Liverpool fan anyhow......


The team they played totally escapes me now. But it was good. I'm not a big Liverpool fan either (I do like them, however).


Now, I'll admit that as a BVB fan, I'm biased toward Kehl and do think he's playing well enough to earn a shot, but since he had no conversations with Klinsmann, you don't see me complaining about him.


I'm more of BVB fan than Werder fan (BVB is really my favorite German side lately), but I would favor Baumann ahead of Kehl, ever so slightly, simply because Baumann is currently getting lot's of extremely valuable Champions League experience. But I would still be quite happy with Kehl. Both are very good defensive mids, and could really help Germany.


It wasn't "at a distance". They both spoke publicly after Hamburg.


Yes, it is still "at a distance", because nobody, except Klinsmann and Woerns themselves, actually know what was said in private, regardless of what they said in public.


Potential has never won s#it.


Neither has playing past-their-prime veterens who were mediocre to begin with. Just look at the WC98, Euro2000, and Euro2004 German sides.


And everything these young defenders have shown to this point has proved they weren't ready. What's wrong with a mixture of young and old?? A veteran on the pitch to help steady the young stallions??


I agree with you 10,000 % here. A winning formula is a mixture of youth and experience. Vogts, Ribbeck and Voeller tended to rely too much on the veterens and didn't give the young guys enough PT. Klinsmann is proving to be the opposite, being obsessed with the youngsters and giving some of the vets the bird.


Not after what they both said after Hamburg. Klinsmann told the world they'd patched up their differences and Woerns would be getting a shot in the near future. That shot never came.


Wrong. That chance for Woerns never came, yet (the key word is "yet"). Who knows, perhaps Klinsmann had plans of bringing Woerns within the next game or two, but wanted to still use the games immediately following the Hamburg meeting for youth experience/evaluation. But Woerns blew up immediately when he didn't get selected right away.


Instead of Klinsmann being a man and telling Woerns, "I don't want complainers on my team", Klinsmann told him what he needed to to get Woerns to be quiet. Then Klinsmann screwed him.


Instead of Woerns being a man and being patient and giving Klinsmann a chance to select him for future games, he threw is public temper tantrum when he didn't get selected immediately.

It works both ways.


What's "not fair" about this?? What's "not known"?! They came out and told the public what I'm saying!

This is bulls#it. If Klinsmann were going to rightfully dismiss Woerns for complaining, he should have done it before the Hamburg meeting. Klinsmann would have been completely justified in doing so. Even I said Woerns was a b!tch for complaining so much then. However, they met and Klinsmann told Woerns and the public that Woerns would indeed get another chance.


And if Woerns didn't throw his tantrum, that chance might still have come. Again, he wasn't exactly patient now, was he?


If Klinsmann were a f#cking MAN, he would have thrown Woerns out right there.


If Woerns were a f#cking MAN, he wouldn't have been belly aching all along, and publicly trying to show up Klinsmann.

Frankly, both men handled the whole situation like sh!t.


No. Klinsmann told Woerns what he needed to get him quiet after Hamburg, thought Woerns would suck at club level and would use that as an excuse to leave him out. When that didn't happen, Klinsmann just left him out, not even being man enough to tell the guy one on one or face to face.


Pure speculation, and you are putting the sinister motivation label on Klinsmann.

[sarcasm] Yes, like Klinsmann's main motivation through this whole ordeal was to screw Woerns, because you know, Klinsmann always hated Woerns, and Klinsmann really enjoys screwing people for kicks. Naw, winning games for Germany was always completely secondary to Klinsmann as compared to the top priority of screwing Christian Woerns.[end sarcasm]


Hitzfeld wouldn't have let it get past Hamburg. Again, had Klinsmann dropped Woerns then, no problem. But then he lied and embarrassed the guy. Do you think Hitzfeld would have done that??


Based on one of your previous posts calling Hitzfeld a coward, since he wouldn't take the Germany post in the first place, then yes, I think he would have done that. ;)


Klinsmann should have just said that. You are writing as if we don't know what came out of the Hamburg meeting. That's where you're wrong.


We know what they said publicly after the meeting. It can be argued that what they said publicly was all that was said in the meeting. But I find that to be extremely unlikely. With most public figures, be it professional athletes and coaches, actors, rock stars, or politicians, what is said publicly rarely reveals the whole truth of what happens behind closed doors.


We do know what came out of that meeting.....


Again, we know what was said publicly. We don't know if that is everything that was said privately, though.


And that's what makes Klinsmann a lying coward.


Nope, it doesn't. Again, we just don't know.


See, what you don't get here is that some of the players have possibly also lost some respect for Klinsmann and no matter what formation he employs, that will potentially hurt the team.


Yep, Klinsmann has done a poor job through all of this. And the whole commuting from California thing isn't working out well at all. But it's not all Klinsmann's fault. The spirit on the German national team has completely sucked for nearly a decade now, under Ribbeck, Voeller, and Klinsmann. Just remember, after Germany bombed out of Euro04, everyone wanted Voeller's head, that after everyone thought he was a god for leading the team to the finals of WC02. Then when Klinsmann took over, and injected his attractive, attacking style, and produced some early good results (including a tie with mighty Brazil in Berlin), everyone thought Klinsmann was a god. But now after a string of sucky results and a very public spat with crybaby Woerns, people want Klinsmann's head, including you calling him a lying coward.

It's friggin' hilarious, the world of professional sports, and the fans who like to b!tch about coaches and players.


Possibly not against the USA because they will be playing for "German Pride" then. But it will rear it's head again and more than likely at the tournament.

Michael Ballack was being "politically correct" in saying he "understands Woerns". But doesn't it carry some weight that the team's undisputed top player has empathy for Woerns??


Sure. I understand Woerns too. He wants to play for his country, and he's getting looked over in favor of young guys that aren't developed yet or are sitting on the bench. If I were in his shoes, I'd be very frustrated.

However, I would try to be a MAN about it and look at the big picture (that Germany does, in fact, need to develop the younger guys), be patient, do my best, and not whine about my coach in the press. If I were in Woerns' shoes, that strategy would be much better for ME in the long run, giving ME the best chance to play for my country.

But I'm not Christian Woerns, and Christian Woerns chose to handle the situation in the worst possible fashion.


Others haven't come out and said as much yet, but they have to be thinking, "If Klinsmann can lie to a veteran like Christian and embarrass him like that, what will he say/do to me??"


If Klinsmann did in fact lie to Woerns, then yes, the players are probably thinking that. I do think they are bummed about the public humiliation that Klinsmann put Woerns through by selecting bench warming Metzelder ahead of him. And I really think they are very bummed about the recent string of bad performances. Both Klinsmann and the players really have their work cut out for them to try to turn things around.


It's fine if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, but wait and see. I'm almost certain Klinsmann has lost at least some respect from some of his players because of this situation.......

I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for all the stuf you post about, and really really enjoy your posts. I just happen to disagree with you that Klinsmann definetely lied to Woerns, because we can't know for sure at this point, IMHO.

I am, however, still dissappointed with Klinsmann's tactics and selections. I've already said it, but he's leaving the two (usually unproven and/or out of form) center backs constantly exposed in his 4-4-2 system that lacks a true defensive mid and constantly pushes the wing backs forward. If I'm going to be ticked at Klinsmann for anything, that's it.

I will also agree wholeheartedly with you that Klinsmann selecting Metzelder, who sits on the bench behind Woerns for BVB, ahead of Woerns for Germany, was a full on slap in the face, whether it was intentional or not. That was a complete public humilation that Klinsmann exacted on Woerns.

But a spat with a player, where it's a "He said", "He said" situation, and it's all pot shots and complaining in the press, I'm not going to jump on either person's side. Sorry. But if you want Klinsmann's head on a silver platter, have at it, if it makes you feel better. ;)

[footyfan1]

The team they played totally escapes me now. But it was good. I'm not a big Liverpool fan either (I do like them, however).


I had it on in the background while I was doing some work. Fowler almost won it near the end, but the goal was disallowed for off-side. Wasn't it Birmingham City??



I'm more of BVB fan than Werder fan (BVB is really my favorite German side lately), but I would favor Baumann ahead of Kehl, ever so slightly, simply because Baumann is currently getting lot's of extremely valuable Champions League experience. But I would still be quite happy with Kehl. Both are very good defensive mids, and could really help Germany.


I think Baumann is too much of a wimp. I've followed him since he was on FCN's youth team. If your next question is how or why, it's because I lived in the Nuernberg area for most of the years between 1988 and 2003. One short year and a half stint in the Heidelberg area and the rest of the time I was always within 45 minutes or less from Nuernberg.





Yes, it is still "at a distance", because nobody, except Klinsmann and Woerns actually said in private, regardless of what they said in public.


So they are going to say one thing in private and then lie to the public?? Come on man. And as stated, Klinsmann could have avoided it all by dropping Woerns in Hamburg.

He also could have avoided this by just telling Woerns that he would get his shot later. Hasn't a veteran like Woerns earned that kind of courtesy??


Neither has playing past-their-prime veterens who were mediocre to begin with. Just look at the WC98, Euro2000, and Euro2004 German sides.

I never advocated using "past their prime veterans" as you saw in my next response that you agreed "10,000%" with.



I agree with you 10,000 % here. A winning formula is a mixture of youth and experience. Vogts, Ribbeck and Voeller tended to rely too much on the veterens and did give the young guys enough PT. Klinsmann is proving to be the opposite, being obsessed with the youngsters and giving some of the vets the bird.

Agree on Vogts, Ribbeck and Klinsmann. I think Voeller came the closest to getting the right mixture, but I feel WC 2002 raised the German expectations a bit too much. I tried to tell everyone I know there that they were just lucky at WC 2002 and the team wasn't really as good as they thought they were. Of course, they didn't want to hear that and they were totally unprepared for what happened at Euro 2004. Most of us who could watch the Germans with an unbiased eye saw it coming.

I really think Voeller was headed in the right direction, but again, in my opinion, unfairly heightened expectations after WC 2002 was his undoing.

I HATED Ribbeck, but he did try to give some younger players shots at the team, but he wasn't patient enough with them. Because of the pressure from the fans and press.

German Football really needs a "rebuilding phase", but their fans and press just won't tolerate it. Klinsmann may be forcing it on them.

That, I would respect him for. Falling on the sword for his country's greater good, but that doesn't erase the way he handled Woerns.




Wrong. That shot never came, yet. Who knows, perhaps Klinsmann had plans of bringing Woerns within the next game or two, but wanted to still use the games immediately following the Hamburg meeting for youth experience/evaluation. But Woerns blew up immediately when he didn't get selected right away.


Instead of Woerns being a man and being patient and giving Klinsmann a chance to select him for future games, he threw is public temper tantrum when he didn't get selected immediately.

It works both ways.

And if Woerns didn't throw his tantrum, that chance might still have come. Again, he wasn't exactly patient now, was he?



You're leaving out the fact that Klinsmann stated the World Cup roster would come from players at this camp.........

You shouldn't have a hard time finding those articles quoting him.

Again, if Klinsmann were going to leave Woerns out of this camp and give him a shot down the line, all Klinsmann had to do was tell him

And again, hasn't a guy like Woerns earned that courtesy???


If Woerns were a f#cking MAN, he wouldn't have been belly aching all along, and publicly trying to show up Klinsmann.

Frankly, both men handled the whole situation like sh!t.


Agree, both handled the situation like s#it. However, I can empathize more with a shunned player than a lying trainer.

Again, see above. I don't think I'm the one without good information.....



Pure speculation, and you are putting the sinister motivation label on Klinsmann. Yes, like Klinsmann's main motivation through this whole ordeal was to screw Woerns, because you know, Klinsmann always hated Woerns, and Klinsmann really enjoys screwing people for kicks. Naw, winning games for Germany was always completely secondary to Klinsmann as compared to the top priority of screwing Christian Woerns.

Sarcasm doesn't fit you man. You obviously don't know as much about the situation as you think you do. Better yet, you think I don't know as much as I do. You are assuming that I'm assuming and I followed this as it went down during and after Hamburg and before this camp.

We translated some of Woerns' side for BVB.com, which prompted me to see what Klinsmann's responses/reactions were. Check it out. You might find what I'm taking about.



Based on one of your previous posts calling Hitzfeld a coward, since he wouldn't take the Germany post in the first place, then yes, I think he would have done that. ;)

Not having the heart to take the job is one thing. Lying to one of your players is another. No, Hitzfeld wouldn't have let it get that far.

After Klinsi gets fired, he just goes back to the beach. He won't have to face the storm of criticism as the others did.

Not much "courage" there.

Smart though!!! :)


We know what they said publicly after the meeting. It can be argued that what they said publicly was all that was said in the meeting. But I find that to be extremely unlikely. With most public figures, be it professional athletes and coaches, actors, rock stars, or politicians, what is said publicly rarely reveals the whole truth of what happens behind closed doors.

Again, we know what was said publicly. We don't know if that is everything that was said privately, though.


Why would Klinsmann tell Woerns something behind closed doors and confirm to the public that Woerns would get another chance at the squad??

What sense does that make??




Yep, Klinsmann has done a poor job through all of this. And the whole commuting from California thing isn't working out well at all. But it's not all Klinsmann's fault.


I have nothing against Klinsmann for that. I only hate what he did to Woerns and the fact that he's seemingly willing to throw away Germany's World Cup chances on mis-based faith.

However, I will say I would be happy to be wrong. I won't root for them because of the USA and Klinsmann, but I would be happy to be wrong.


The spirit on the German national team has completely sucked for nearly a decade now, under Ribbeck, Voeller, and Klinsmann.

Of course, that's except for the 2002 team, although I do believe they were more lucky than good, but they nearly got it done.

I think the spirit was at it's lowest after Euro 2000. I was at their final match in Rotterdam when Portugal slammed them 3-0. I thought Mattheaus and Scholl were going to fight right there on the pitch.......


Just remember, after Germany bombed out of Euro04, everyone wanted Voeller's head, that after everyone thought he was a god for leading the team to the finals of WC02.

I addressed that above.


Then when Klinsmann took over, and injected his attractive, attacking style, and produced some early good results (including a tie with mighty Brazil in Berlin), everyone thought Klinsmann was a god. But now after a string of sucky results and a very public spat with crybaby Woerns, people want Klinsmann's head, including you calling him a lying coward.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I disagree with many more outrageous opinions on these boards, but one thing all of those people remind me of and they are right about is that they are entitled to their opinions no matter how much I disagree with them.

And in my opinion, Juergen Klinsmann is a lying coward.

My opinion, I'm entitled to it. You are entitled to disagree and we can go on and on and on and on, but I don't think either of us is learning anything besides the fact we disagree.


It's friggin' hilarious, the world of professional sports, and the fans who like to b!tch about coaches and players.

Welcome to the BigSoccer discussion boards. We discuss what we discuss and we feel what we feel. Thanks to "Wolfsburgh" for teaching me that lesson sometime ago.

I don't agree with everyone and I sure as hell can give them a hard time, but the bottom line is we get to feel what we feel no matter what you think.

You and I don't seem to be far apart in attitude man.

However, if you think some of us are being ridiculous, I'm sure you can find a more productive board on some other subject somewhere else.



Sure. I understand Woerns too. He wants to play for his country, and he's getting looked over in favor of young guys that aren't developed yet or are sitting on the bench. If I were in his shoes, I'd be very frustrated.

However, I would try to be a MAN about it and look at the big picture (that Germany does, in fact, need to develop the younger guys), be patient, do my best, and not whine about my coach in the press. If I were in Woerns' shoes, that strategy would be much better for ME in the long run, giving ME the best chance to play for my country.


Again, go and find where Klinsmann said the World Cup roster would come from the players AT THIS CAMP.

And tell me you can't understand why Christian Woerns went off the way he did.

Woerns has never, ever bitched like that about anything at BVB. Not even in 2000 when he had an offer from Bayern and wanted to go.

What do you think set him off this way??? You think he's lying about what Klinsmann told him?? Especially after Klinsmann confirmed what he told him to the public???


But I'm not Christian Woerns, and Christian Woerns chose to handle the situation in the worst possible fashion.

And you either don't know everything that was confirmed publicly or just don't wish to acknowledge it. Seeing that you asked me to look up the information, I assume you either don't know and refuse to believe it or you think I'm assuming from some bulls#it in the press.

Trust me, I won't go off like this one anything unless I'm well-informed........



If Klinsmann did in fact lie to Woerns, then yes, the players are probably thinking that. I do think they are bummed about the public humiliation that Klinsmann put Woerns through by selecting bench warming Metzelder ahead of him. And I really think they are very bummed about the recent string of bad performances. Both Klinsmann and the players really have their work cut out for them to try to turn things around.

Agree 100%.



I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for all the stuf you post about, and really really enjoy your posts. I just happen to disagree with you that Klinsmann definetely lied to Woerns, because we can't know for sure at this point, IMHO.

Do you think O.J. is innocent?? Maybe Bonds didn't use steroids? ;)

Dude, again, I don't go off like this unless I know what I'm talking about or I'm so highly convinced by the evidence shown that I believe there can be no other conclusion. And when I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it and apologizing if need be. However, I don't see that in this case.

One question. Why do you think Klinsmann can't come out and say he didn't make any promises to Woerns??



I am, however, still dissappointed with Klinsmann's tactics and selections. I've already said, but he's leaving the two (usually unproven and/or out of form) center backs constantly exposed in his 4-4-2 system that lacks a true defensive mid and constantly pushes the wing backs forward. If I'm going to be ticked at Klinsmann for anything, that's it.

Agree and I think he'll get away from that formation.



I will also agree wholeheartedly with you that Klinsmann selecting Metzelder, who sits on the bench behind Woerns for BVB, ahead of Woerns for Germany, was a full on slap in the face, whether it was intentional or not. That was a complete public humilation that Klinsmann exacted on Woerns.

And you can't see why he went off???


But a spat with a player, where it's a "He said", "He said" situation, and it's all pot shots and complaining in the press, I'm not going to jump on either person's side. Sorry.

That's because you choose to ignore what's been confirmed. Or you refuse to take my word for it.

Klinsmann promised him a shot. Then he left him off this camp even as he announced that the World Cup roster would come from the players at THIS CAMP.

Again, if Klinsmann was going give Woerns another shot later, all he had to do was tell him.


But if you want Klinsmann's head on a silver platter, have at it, if it makes you feel better.

I don't give a rat's ass. I just lost all respect for him.

[JeffS]

footyfan1,

First, I've totally enjoyed this discussion. I always enjoy such discussions on BigSoccer. Fans come in and b!tch and whine and argue with each other, and it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a programmer by trade and the stuff you see here is nothing compared to some of the flame wars that go on in tech forums. There, it's Windows vs Mac, Linux vs Windows, Solaris vs Linux, C++ vs Java, Java vs .Net, KDE vs Gnome, vi vs Emacs, and so on and so forth. It's fun stuff, when you're in the mood.

As for the Woerns/Klinsmann thing, since you are so passionate about it and so convinced that Klinsmann lied to Woerns, I'll take your word for it. But through the discussion, I've been telling it like I saw it, based on the facts that I knew. Apparently, I don't know all the facts, not the least of which was Woerns not being called up for the current camp. OK, so without knowing any of the detailed facts, I submit that I've been wrong, based on your passion for what has transpired.

Nevertheless, I would appreciate some links, because I like knowing all the facts. I'll do some Googling myself, or some more parusing of the Germany forum at BS. But links would be appreciated.

peace

[footyfan1]

footyfan1,

First, I've totally enjoyed this discussion. I always enjoy such discussions on BigSoccer. Fans come in and b!tch and whine and argue with each other, and it's all good as far as I'm concerned.


Same here.


I'm a programmer by trade and the stuff you see here is nothing compared to some of the flame wars that go on in tech forums. There, it's Windows vs Mac, Linux vs Windows, Solaris vs Linux, C++ vs Java, Java vs .Net, KDE vs Gnome, vi vs Emacs, and so on and so forth. It's fun stuff, when you're in the mood.

Yeah, I'll bet it is. Some of my best friends do programming and they have these debates at parties!


As for the Woerns/Klinsmann thing, since you are so passionate about it and so convinced that Klinsmann lied to Woerns, I'll take your word for it. But through the discussion, I've been telling it like I saw it, based on the facts that I knew. Apparently, I don't know all the facts, not the least of which was Woerns not being called up for the current camp. OK, so without knowing any of the detailed facts, I submit that I've been wrong, based on your passion for what has transpired.

Didn't say you were "wrong". Just that it seemed that your opinion wasn't based on everything that's gone down.

Hell, you might find something that proves me "wrong", but in this case, I'm pretty certain you won't. LOL!! ;)

Nevertheless, I would appreciate some links, because I like knowing all the facts. I'll do some Googling myself, or some more parusing of the Germany forum at BS. But links would be appreciated.

peace


I can get with that, but I don't have the time to go searching for links. As I said, I followed it as it happened. This situation got to me so much, I made calls to Germany to follow it. That will be one of the great things about going back soon. I don't have to make calls, beg for tapes and download clips to get all the news as it happens. :)

[arthur d]

Yeah, I'll bet it is. Some of my best friends do programming and they have these debates at parties!


I am sure they get all the girls. :D

Nice discussion. I am 100% with Jeff on this one, but of course I can understand Woerns and his supporters (i.e. you, footyfan) getting upset about it. Do you remember the Effenberg case? Now that was another prime example of the DFB shooting themselves into the foot, assisted by some stupid behaviour by an individual player. A few more of those, and we'll be on par with Holland for damaging our chances by silly behaviour. :D

[footyfan1]

I am sure they get all the girls. :D

Yeah, why do you think I know them?! LOL!!!

Yes, just kidding along with your take!


Nice discussion. I am 100% with Jeff on this one, but of course I can understand Woerns and his supporters (i.e. you, footyfan) getting upset about it.


This has nothing to do with being a Woerns or a BVB fan.

I'm also disgusted that Metzelder got called up and I would be if Woerns had been called up with him.

Also, while I think Kehl deserved a call-up, do you see me complaining about it??

For me, this is about a trainer I respected lying to and then embarrassing a potentially important player. One who's earned more respect than he got from his trainer.


Do you remember the Effenberg case? Now that was another prime example of the DFB shooting themselves into the foot, assisted by some stupid behaviour by an individual player. A few more of those, and we'll be on par with Holland for damaging our chances by silly behaviour. :D

Of course I do, but in that case, the player flipped off their own fans. I would have understood Vogts sitting him for the rest of the tournament, but I think Vogts overreacted, especially in keeping Effenberg out of the side all of those years.

Very stubborn and stupid.......

I also didn't blame Effenberg for quitting after one match under Ribbeck. He didn't want to become a scapegoat for a mess he had nothing to do with making.

[Snakeater]

The fans calling for Klinsi's head are idiots.

Let's get a few things straight.

Klinsmann is one of the greatest strikers the game of football has ever seen. He can teach the players a thing or two about playing football. He's also intelligent, comprehensive, and open to change. He has requisite football know-how, credentials, and character attributes to be coach. The decision to make Klinsi was a great move on the part of th DFB.

Finally, we have a coach in Klinsmann who thinks outside the box and who is willing to resort to different training techniques to get the most of his players, who is willing to change his formation and tactics, and who is willing to experiment in his player selections. This is exactly what we need in a coach.

Many are complaining that he should select more proven players. Like who? Hamann? Hamann stunk in the last game he played, and many of you said he shouldn't be selected anymore. Schneider? No worries, he's on the team. Woerns? Woerns stunk the joint out in the last game he played, and many of you said he shouldn't be selected anymore. Exactly which veterans has Klinsmann not given an opportunity to?

In fact, I think Klinsi is showing a lot of foresigth here. Basically, he selected all the older players and gave them a chance to show what they had, and they showed nothing.

Klinsmann knows what he's going to get from his older players. The upside to younger players like Huth is much greater. Huth is probably almost as good as Woerns now, but his potential is far greater. He's younger, faster, stronger, and all the rest. If Huth puts it together, he'd be a much better choice than Woerns. It's the wise choice to make, especially considering their almost equal in ability now. Huth's capable of much more....

....It was only last summer that Germany played very well at the Confederations Cup almost knocking off Brazil, playing Klinsi's brand of attractive, attacking football. Everyone was happy, praising Klinsmann for the energy and enthusiasm he injected into the team.

Now, after a couple of bad results, some of you have started summersaulting off the band-wagon making stupid statements and ridiculous assertions.

First, we have no idea what was said between Klinsmann and Woerns during their meeting last fall. It's preposterous to think that you know what the two of them talked about, and dumber still to start passing judgments on what you think was said.

Klinsmann took time to sit down and meet with Woerns and explain the situation. That's very professional. I don't know how often coaches meet with their players to explain why they haven't been selected.

Second, Woerns was very disrespectul to Klinsmann. His comments show he has no class and no respect for the manager of the German National Team.

Third, let's keep things in perspective. This is Woerns we're talking about. Have you seen him play? He's sloooooooooooooowwwwwwww. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho eat Woerns for breakfast.

Wasn't it just last summer that Woerns last played in a game against Holland? Apparently, he stunk the joint out, and everyone on this site was saying, "Why is Woerns being selected when we have younger better players like Mertesacker?"

Oh, and this idea that Klinsmann is trying to screw Woerns is absolutely ridiculous. Only someone with an IQ lowerthan George Bush would think that. Besides, what exactly would his motive be? Did Woerns do something to him in a past life?

A few years from now, we'll look back on Klinsmann's time as coach and say he was one of the best coaches we've had.

the snake has bitten:cool: