Klinsmann and die Nationalmannschaft

[blazsovszkyc]

http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=368889&CPID=219&clid=&lid=9&title=Kaiser+slams+Klinsmann
I would fire him now until it's late, or it is lata already but now I would bring Hitzfield, he would have 3 months, not enough but better than Klinsmann IMO

[Camilo]

................................... .Kahn

.............Farenhorst.......Me tzelder..........Merte


................................... ..Kehl

Frings............................. ................................... Schweni


..........................Deisler ..............Ballack



................................Klose......Poldi


This is my line up, and yess, somebody pleaseee fire Klinsmann...and bring Hitzfield

[bltleo]

I'll root for the USA first, but Germany are my second favorite team. I hope it's a good game, that the MLS guys play well, and that Klinsmann wakes up to his team's massive defensive holes.

you are opposite of my...my first team is GERMANY and my second favorite is USA..

USMNT is pretty strong....good forward, midfield, Donovan, Baesley, Twellmann...many good stars.....it will be interesting game..but i hope we will win...we need to win after Italy catastrophal game:)

[JeffS]

http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=368889&CPID=219&clid=&lid=9&title=Kaiser+slams+Klinsmann
I would fire him now until it's late, or it is lata already but now I would bring Hitzfield, he would have 3 months, not enough but better than Klinsmann IMO

Hitzfeld probably would have been a much better selection from the start. But he wanted nothing of it, nor did Otto Rehhagel. Klinsmann through his hat into the ring on the condition he could commute from California. Germany were desperate, so the German FA accepted those conditions.

On the one hand I respect Klinsmann's stance. He did it for the befefits of his wife and kids. His kids are growing up in California, and he doen't want to uproot them, nor be an absentee Dad. As a father of two girls myself, I totally respect that. Also, as a native Californian (born and raised), I relate to his desire to live here. ;)

On the other hand, having a national team coach that commutes from some far away place really is an untenable situation. He cannot possibly do his job to the best of his ability if he flying back and forth all the time, and basing a lot of his player evaluations on what he sees on sattelite TV, and being away from the players themselves.

So, since the German FA accepted Klinsmann's conditions, it now has to live with sub-standard output. It is silly to complain and criticize now, because everyone knew what the problems would be.

Perhaps they should go with Hitzfeld now, assuming he'd be interested. But if that's the case, they'd better do it really quick.

But through all of this, it's not the commuting that Klinsmann has been doing that concerns me, it's his foolish, naive tactics and player selections. The 4-4-2 system, lacking a true defensive mid, pushing the wing backs forward all the time, and starting slow, not-in-great-form, not-playing much for their clubs, players in Metzelder and Huth, is just asking the opposition to score tons of goals.

[footyfan1]

Hitzfeld probably would have been a much better selection from the start. But he wanted nothing of it, nor did Otto Rehhagel. Klinsmann through his hat into the ring on the condition he could commute from California. Germany were desperate, so the German FA accepted those conditions.

On the one hand I respect Klinsmann's stance. He did it for the befefits of his wife and kids. His kids are growing up in California, and he doen't want to uproot them, nor be an absentee Dad. As a father of two girls myself, I totally respect that. Also, as a native Californian (born and raised), I relate to his desire to live here. ;)

On the other hand, having a national team coach that commutes from some far away place really is an untenable situation. He cannot possibly do his job to the best of his ability if he flying back and forth all the time, and basing a lot of his player evaluations on what he sees on sattelite TV, and being away from the players themselves.

So, since the German FA accepted Klinsmann's conditions, it now has to live with sub-standard output. It is silly to complain and criticize now, because everyone knew what the problems would be.

Perhaps they should go with Hitzfeld now, assuming he'd be interested. But if that's the case, they'd better do it really quick.

But through all of this, it's not the commuting that Klinsmann has been doing that concerns me, it's his foolish, naive tactics and player selections. The 4-4-2 system, lacking a true defensive mid, pushing the wing backs forward all the time, and starting slow, not-in-great-form, not-playing much for their clubs, players in Metzelder and Huth, is just asking the opposition to score tons of goals.


Great post Jeff. And I agree that the DFB knew the conditions, so they need not b!tch now.

On Hitzfeld, you hit the nail right on the head. He wanted no part of it.

However, I will tell you that I completely believe Hitzfeld is just waiting for Klinsmann to fail so he can "clean up the mess" with much less pressure.

In other words, Hitzfeld didn't have the courage to take over the team when he knew the pressure would be at it's most demanding.

I've lost some respect for Hitzfeld because of that.

However, I feel Germany will fail at the World Cup, the press will call for Klinsmann's head along with those of Jogi Low and Oliver Bierhoff.

The three will resign before being fired.

Hitzfeld will then "gracefully accept" the "tough job" of getting the team "fixed" and ready for Euro 2008 qualifying with Matthias Sammer taking over for Bierhoff and Michael Henke taking over for Low.

And they will win. Boy, will they win.......... :cool:

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Yes, if the World Cup ends without sucess (at least 1/4 final)
Klinsmann will be gone by the media.
All the things dicussed now will be used against him.

But i have respect for Klinsmann,
all the other coaches were too chicken to make the job
(ok, Hitzfeld wasn´t propably ready for a new job at this time)
after the catastrophal performance at the EC 2004
(except Matthäus, but nobody wanted him).

Klinsmann had to build up a complete new team,
because all the old players totally sucked at EC 2004.

It would be a wonder, if such team wins the WC title,
because the time to let the team develope was very short.

So propably it was a mistake by him to say he want to become WC winner,
because in Germany there public interpretates it as:
"My goal is to win the World Cup."
It will be used against him, if the team won´t win.

But back to topic:
The USA match is important for the mood within the team
and the opinion in public about Klinsmann and the team.
I hope we win, because then public and press keep calm
for the next time and the NT can work better.

[JeffS]

Great post Jeff. And I agree that the DFB knew the conditions, so they need not b!tch now.

On Hitzfeld, you hit the nail right on the head. He wanted no part of it.

However, I will tell you that I completely believe Hitzfeld is just waiting for Klinsmann to fail so he can "clean up the mess" with much less pressure.

In other words, Hitzfeld didn't have the courage to take over the team when he knew the pressure would be at it's most demanding.

I've lost some respect for Hitzfeld because of that.

However, I feel Germany will fail at the World Cup, the press will call for Klinsmann's head along with those of Jogi Low and Oliver Bierhoff.

The three will resign before being fired.

Hitzfeld will then "gracefully accept" the "tough job" of getting the team "fixed" and ready for Euro 2008 qualifying with Matthias Sammer taking over for Bierhoff and Michael Henke taking over for Low.

And they will win. Boy, will they win.......... :cool:


Great post by you as well.

I thought Hitzfeld was being a wuss. He wasn't doing anything, he wants to coach, but probably did not want to be the guy assigned to turnaround a current mess, or be under the constant scrutiny of being German national team manager (even bigger microscope than Bayern).

As for Rehhagel - he's adored by Greece, has had success, he's enjoying himself, so why jump into a mess? Can't blame him.

Germany should be able to squeek into the second round, due to a relatively easy group - Poland, Costa Rica, Ecuador. But after that, they'll get embarassed, unless Klinsmann changes tactics/line-ups.

The one good thing about Klinsmann is he has been trying to shake things up a bit. He's emphasizing younger players (something that was long over due), conditioning, and a more attacking, free flowing, speed oriented style (although he needs to go with my aforementioned 3-5-2 with good defensive mids).

I also agreed with him not automatically "giving" the starting goalkeeping nod to Kahn. Having an open competiton has been fantastic for both Kahn and Lehmann, and both have improved their form.

But trying to rely on Huth and Metzelder in the middle, with wing backs going forward and lacking a true defensive mid - absolute suicide. :rolleyes:

Also, I think Klinsmann has handled Woerns horribly. Yes, Woerns should keep his mouth shut when he doesn't get selected. However, Woerns has been playing well, he's been playing regular first team football, he has lot's of caps and experience, and he is currently Germany's most stable central defender. I think he has a legitimate beef when guys that aren't playing first team football with their clubs get selected ahead of him. It's gotta suck for Woerns when he sees that his teammate Metzelder, who is sitting on the bench for BVB, get's selected ahead of him when he (Woerns) is always starting for BVB. Then Klinsmann says in the press that his selections are always based on performance. Stupid.

It would seem common sense to me to usually go for guys that are starting for their clubs over guys who are sitting on the bench. Also, it would seem logical to perfer guys who are getting champions league or UEFA cup experience. It made sense to give PT to young guys, or non starting guys, in the early friendlies, when Klinsmann initially took over, to get a good look at what they could do. But this close to the WC, Klinsmann needs to already know who can do what, and go with a competent core, and try to get chemistry going, and get some victories under his belt (to build team confidence). But no, he still has faith in Huth and Metzelder. But, then again, it could pay off. These two guys definetely have the ability and tools to be great (Metz has already proven this, and Huth has a strong center-back's body and plays hard).

Anyway, my expectations for Germany are very low. One can only hope that they can get it together come tournament time, get some luck, better performances due to inspiration from home fans, and re-establish Germany's (old) repuatation as a great tournament team.

[footyfan1]

Yes, if the World Cup ends without sucess (at least 1/4 final) Klinsmann will be gone by the media. All the things dicussed now will be used against him.


Exactly how it will happen.



But i have respect for Klinsmann,

I don't anymore. Because of his dishonesty with Woerns.



all the other coaches were too chicken to make the job (ok, Hitzfeld wasn´t propably ready for a new job at this time)

I think Hitzfeld was just too chicken-s#it to accept the challenge. Now, he's just waiting like a rat in the dark for Klinsmann to fail. I also believe that's exactly why you don't see Hitzfeld taking a club job either. He could have had Real Madrid just by saying the word.



after the catastrophal performance at the EC 2004
(except Matthäus, but nobody wanted him).

I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting Mattheaus. He's just getting by on his name.



Klinsmann had to build up a complete new team,
because all the old players totally sucked at EC 2004.

He didn't HAVE to. You can mix young and old. Those players need an experienced leader out there. A calming infuence. Especially in defense.




It would be a wonder, if such team wins the WC title,
because the time to let the team develope was very short.

That's his own fault for being stubborn about his defense.




So propably it was a mistake by him to say he want to become WC winner, because in Germany there public interpretates it as:
"My goal is to win the World Cup." It will be used against him, if the team won´t win.

What else is he supposed to say?? "We hope to just make the 1/4 finals?" Then people will say he isn't trying to win.



But back to topic: The USA match is important for the mood within the team and the opinion in public about Klinsmann and the team. I hope we win, because then public and press keep calm for the next time and the NT can work better.


Some will accept nothing less than blowing the USA off the pitch. However, if it's a competitive match and Germany barely wins, people will still be upset because they will believe Germany should blow the USA off the pitch on German soil. I think with the press, anything less than victory by two goals or more will seen as a failure.

And if the USA wins, Klinsmann might be out of a job the next day.......

[JeffS]

I will have to say that at least Klinsmann had the kahunas to take the job in the first place.

Hitzfeld didn't.

This is all very silly. The German nation team gets worse by the moment, if Klinsmann continues to fail. It sets a bad example.

Any would be coach will see what Ribbeck, Voeller, and now Klinsmann have gone through - not enough world class players to select from, and constant pressure and criticism from the press.

But great coaches take that stuff as just part of the job, and persevere.

[footyfan1]

I will have to say that at least Klinsmann had the kahunas to take the job in the first place.

Hitzfeld didn't.


Yes, he gets credit for that, but with me a coach being dishonest with his players and vice versa just sticks with me. Klinsmann straight lied to Christian Woerns.

I cannot respect that or him. Especially as they are old teammates. If you don't intend to call a player up, then be straight and honest with him instead of playing games because you don't have the courage to tell him man to man. You'd never see that out of Franz Beckenbauer or even Bruce Arena.



This is all very silly. The German nation team gets worse by the moment, if Klinsmann continues to fail. It sets a bad example.

I agree.



Any would be coach will see what Ribbeck, Voeller, and now Klinsmann have gone through - not enough world class players to select from, and constant pressure and criticism from the press.

And that's the problem. You can't tell anyone that the players just aren't good enough anymore. I think the players are talented enough, but not many have the old German will and tenacity that usually propelled Germany over more "talented" opponents. Today's German player just doesn't have the iron will that the German greats of old had.


But great coaches take that stuff as just part of the job, and persevere.

Yes, they do, but Klinsmann hasn't done anything to show he's a great coach. I respect him for trying to bring the DFB into the 21st Century and I supported him big time for that.

However, with me, all of that is negated by his dishonesty with Christian Woerns.

I don't have tolerance for any "authority figure" who lies to his subordinates. And that's in every aspect of life........

[JeffS]

However, with me, all of that is negated by his dishonesty with Christian Woerns.

I don't have tolerance for any "authority figure" who lies to his subordinates. And that's in every aspect of life........

And it's now biting him in the @ss, as Germany are giving up goals by the bunches, and Woerns would be a huge help.

[Jaison]

And it's now biting him in the @ss, as Germany are giving up goals by the bunches, and Woerns would be a huge help.

Absolutely. Woerns and Fahrenhorst have been the two best German CBs form-wise recently, yet neither will get a sniff of playing. If anyone saw the Schalke-H96 game, Mertesacker looked horrible, especially on Bajramovic's goal. It looks like he has no confidence right now, and currently IMO, he shouldn't be starting. But with Klinsi's selection policies, he will.

[arthur d]

Klinsmann straight lied to Christian Woerns.

However, with me, all of that is negated by his dishonesty with Christian Woerns.

I don't have tolerance for any "authority figure" who lies to his subordinates. And that's in every aspect of life........

Could you just clarify what exactly you mean by 'he lied'? I also think that he could have handled the Woerns case better, but I wouldn't crucify him as you do here. You Are not overreacting, are you... by any chance :)

As for the talent, nope, it's not there. The team is probably more talented than in 2002, but I struggle to find another World Cup where we had less talent. See my previous post on this topic, which you never answered.

[arthur d]

Absolutely. Woerns and Fahrenhorst have been the two best German CBs form-wise recently, yet neither will get a sniff of playing. If anyone saw the Schalke-H96 game, Mertesacker looked horrible, especially on Bajramovic's goal. It looks like he has no confidence right now, and currently IMO, he shouldn't be starting. But with Klinsi's selection policies, he will.

I agree that Woerns should have been called up. I haven't seen Fahrenhorst play for a while, though I've read good things about him.

The Merte/Metze/Huth solution is definitely not a very good one...

[scorpio81]

However, I will tell you that I completely believe Hitzfeld is just waiting for Klinsmann to fail so he can "clean up the mess" with much less pressure.

In other words, Hitzfeld didn't have the courage to take over the team when he knew the pressure would be at it's most demanding.

I've lost some respect for Hitzfeld because of that.

I think Hitzfeld was just too chicken-s#it to accept the challenge. Now, he's just waiting like a rat in the dark for Klinsmann to fail. I also believe that's exactly why you don't see Hitzfeld taking a club job either. He could have had Real Madrid just by saying the word.


you dont think youre jumping the gun there a bit, do you? :D

naah, of course youre not! ;)

[BigEastEnder]

Germany was outclassed by Italy. Germany couldn't keep posession, amount any decent attack, and were physically dominated. I am sorry to inform the Germans but I do not see that changing in a 3 week period. I would be surprise if Germany wins the Match against the states.

[footyfan1]

Could you just clarify what exactly you mean by 'he lied'? I also think that he could have handled the Woerns case better, but I wouldn't crucify him as you do here. You Are not overreacting, are you... by any chance :)

Remember the talks they had in Hamburg after the last time Woerns wasn't called up??

After that, both Woerns AND Klinsmann acknowledged that they agreed Woerns would have another shot. Then, Klinsmann names the players to his camp and says he'll select the World Cup roster from those players. Woerns wasn't on that list, nor did he play a match after the Hamburg talks.

Just where am I "overreacting"?? Where is Woerns overreacting? :confused:



As for the talent, nope, it's not there. The team is probably more talented than in 2002, but I struggle to find another World Cup where we had less talent. See my previous post on this topic, which you never answered.


I didn't answer because I didn't think I needed to. You made great points. Also, did I come across as saying this team is "more talented"? I honestly didn't mean that. I was trying to get across that they have as much in the "talent department" as some of those teams, but they don't have the will those teams had.

I didn't go back to read it, so if I misquoted myself, this is what I truly meant. I don't have time to type one of my usual "books" right now, but I will try to monitor the thread as I have breaks in the day. :)

Thanks!

[footyfan1]

you dont think youre jumping the gun there a bit, do you? :D

naah, of course youre not! ;)


Wait to see what happens.......

[footyfan1]

I agree that Woerns should have been called up. I haven't seen Fahrenhorst play for a while, though I've read good things about him.

The Merte/Metze/Huth solution is definitely not a very good one...


That's what happens when you go by age and potential instead of actual form.

Age is prejudicial and sometimes potential is never reached..........

[F96]

I pretty much agree with arthur. Except for Ballack, Podoslki and Lahm there just isn't much talent. Most players are just average Bundesliga players. It's sad that there's even talk about players like Neuville, Brdaric or Sinkiewicz making the team.

Look at the 90 team that had players like Brehme, Buchwald, Matthäus, Häßler, Littbarski and then Klinsmann and Völler up front.

This team is not even close. That's not only a question of will and mental toughness.

I even feel for the players. I do believe they will play their hearts out but I doubt that will be enough to go far and I think the majority of German football fans are extremely pessimistic right now or even panicking.