Player Selection and Team tactics

[ForeverRed]

I agree with........footyfan!

Jeff made some great points but the fact of the matter is that Huth has been playing regularly for Chelski when they've pretty much wrapped up their title. If he started in the last 5 games, why not against Barcelona?

Why didn't Huth play in important FA Cup games or at the beginning of the season? It's not like this is Huth's first year either. It was the same story last season, you would guess there is some progress but there isn't.

Sometimes pessimism is justified.

[JeffS]

Great points. You do tend to be an optimist, but that's not a bad thing. I do tend to be a pessimist. On top of that, I'm no Robert Huth fan. I think he's severely overrated.

I refuse to "drink the Kool-Aid" when it comes to Huth. I'm sure Chelsea are getting him time to see exactly what it is they have and if he will get better with playing time. You know, not everyone does, no matter how much freakin' potential they have.


I'm not drinking any Huth "kool-aid". In fact, when I've seen him play for Germany, I would just cover my eyes. When they played Brazil in the cofeds cup, Huth was repeatedly embarrassed by the second string Brazillians. But that had as much to do with Klinsi's tactics as Huth being too slow and not ready. That said, I saw potential in the guy, with his size and skill and toughness.


But to be fair, let's take Huth out of there and put him on a German team's roster. I don't think he would have started for Bayern or Bremen either. Right now, even at our sorry ass club (You can tell I'm pissed at BVB right now ;) ), he'd definitely be behind Woerns and more than likely behind both Brzenska and Metzelder too.


Well, I doubt Huth would start ahead of Lucio and Ismael, and I doubt he would start ahead of Fahrenhost or Naldo (Bayern and Werder, respectively). But in either situation, he would get his PT. On BVB, I would see him ahead of Brzenska, but not CMetz or Woerns. BTW - I haven't seen CMetz play in a while (other than the Italy debacle), but I don't see Brzenska being ahead of CMetz. But he is at the moment, and Bert V knows better than I. But certainly CMetz is a higher caliber player than Brzenska, although I see decent potential in Brzenska.


Simply put, he's not ready. That's what I meant. But I guess it's not what I actually mean, it's what you think I mean, eh???


Well, yeah, he's not ready. I agree. Due to Germany's weakness, particularily at center back, and due to Klinsmann horrible handling of Woerns, Huth is being rushed along, well before he's even had a chance to make an impact at club level. I guess it's a case of desperate times call for desperate measures. Nevertheless, we all have to be pleased when Huth gets PT, and perhaps shows progress.


As far as the other clubs who wanted Huth before the season, that was created by the press more than anything. Those clubs didn't want him because of anything he did on the pitch, they wanted him because they assume he's going to be great because of all the press he's getting.

And as far as why Chelsea didn't sell, it wasn't about Chelsea wanting to keep him no matter what, it was about none of clubs meeting Mourinho's price for Huth. Yeah, yeah. Jose said he wanted Robert to stay. Standard verbage for "You'll have to bid more than that......."

You think it would be any sweat off Mourinho's nuts to find a replacement for Robert Huth??

S#it man. All Chelsea would do is brush off Roman's checkbook and write a huge check to West Ham for Anton Ferdinand, who's better than Huth anyhow. S#it, right now, Anton Ferdinand is better than his brother too!! LOL!!

When Mourinho said Chelsea wouldn't be "giving players away" anymore last season, he wasn't kidding. That's what happened before this season. No one met their price.

That wasn't any "great loyalty" to f#ckin' Robert Huth.....

Then again, I guess it's all in how you look at it, eh????

Amazing how differently two people can see the same situation.

Point well taken. Regardless of Huth's stock in Maurinho's eyes, they're going to try to get as much money for him as possible, if they decide they want to sell him, trying to overinflate his value. That's just normal business. Nevertheless, I doubt Bayern came in totally low-balling. But then again, maybe they did. Other clubs tried to work out a loan deal, both in the BL and in the EPL (which ones, I don't remember at the moment). Thus, some clubs had interest, and Chelski decided to keep Huth. That's at least somewhat positive.

Once again, I'm not drinking Huth kool aid. I think he's slow, and still far to immature in his development as a pro. But he does try hard, and he does show skills, toughness, and size. Plus he has a rocket of a shot. So, yeah, I'm an optimist, quite often unrealistically so. Thus, I'm often guilty of wishful thinking. And I wish that Huth, and Merte, and CMetz, can all step up to the plate and do well for Germany at the WC.

[footyfan1]

I'm not drinking any Huth "kool-aid". In fact, when I've seen him play for Germany, I would just cover my eyes. When they played Brazil in the cofeds cup, Huth was repeatedly embarrassed by the second string Brazillians. But that had as much to do with Klinsi's tactics as Huth being too slow and not ready. That said, I saw potential in the guy, with his size and skill and toughness.



The "Kool-Aid" reference was a general statement, not something just directed at you.

The rest were good points. It's just another thing we won't see eye-to-eye on.

Just two people seeing the same situation two different ways.

[JeffS]

The "Kool-Aid" reference was a general statement, not something just directed at you.

The rest were good points. It's just another thing we won't see eye-to-eye on.

Just two people seeing the same situation two different ways.

But what if I want to drink the kool aid? ;)

Actually, I don't think we're too far off. Neither one of us think very highly of Huth. You might think he's a lost cause, or doesn't have the potential, while I think he does have a little bit of potential. Not too big of a gap there.

Regardless, it's not like the the good old days of Mattias Sammer, or Thomas Helmer, or Juergen Kohler, or Klaus Augentauler, or Bernd Foerster, or Ul Stielke, or Franz Beckenbauer. :rolleyes:

It's sad to think Germany once had guys like that lot, but now only have Robert Huth, or CMetz, or Per Mertesacker.

And yes, Christian Woerns is in better form than those three. But even if he and Klinsi were on best of terms, Germany still would not be all that great off. I mean Woerns is solid, particularily as a BL defender. But he certainly doesn't belong with the likes of Sammer, Kohler, Augentauler, Stielke, or Beckenbauer.

Germany are desperate for overall talent in general, and for talent at the center back position specifically. Thus, the Robert Huth debate.

Maybe Germany can "borrow" someone like Nesta or Canavarro from Italy, if they ask really really nicely. The Italians have excellent defenders up the wazoo, so maybe they can spare one for their good neighbors to the north. :D

[footyfan1]

But what if I want to drink the kool aid? (Wink smiley removed)

Your choice.



Actually, I don't think we're too far off. Neither one of us think very highly of Huth. You might think he's a lost cause, or doesn't have the potential, while I think he does have a little bit of potential. Not too big of a gap there.


There's no gap at all when you say it like that. Read my first response. I said he has all the potential in the world. I'm just not as confident of his reaching that potential as you seem to be.

Maybe that's the "gap" you're referring to?


Regardless, it's not like the the good old days of Mattias Sammer, or Thomas Helmer, or Juergen Kohler, or Klaus Augentauler, or Bernd Foerster, or Ul Stielke, or Franz Beckenbauer. :rolleyes:


The problem isn't that Huth isn't as good as the names you put up. The problem is, he isn't living up to being good enough for Germany's needs right now.

Why must you overexaggerate so much just to try to make a point?

Nobody said he had to be a superstar, but again, the problem is he isn't even living up to his overhype in the German press. He isn't even coming close.



It's sad to think Germany once had guys like that lot, but now only have Robert Huth, or CMetz, or Per Mertesacker.

Guys with all the potential in the world, but haven't come close to living up to it.

Well, CMetz did before his injury, but Klinsi is expecting CMetz to be a leader for the others and CMetz just doesn't have that in him.



And yes, Christian Woerns is in better form than those three. But even if he and Klinsi were on best of terms, Germany still would not be all that great off. I mean Woerns is solid, particularily as a BL defender. But he certainly doesn't belong with the likes of Sammer, Kohler, Augentauler, Stielke, or Beckenbauer.

#1 - Christian Woerns was not a part of this conversation.

#2 - Again, why does he have to be as good as those you named? He's better than who's being played ahead of him. That was my issue.

Please note the words "WAS my issue"......

#3 - No one expects ANY of the German defenders to be the guys you named, but again, the problem is that right now, they have not shown they are good enough for the task at hand. For me that is the ONLY ISSUE.

I'm not looking for them to be the next Beckenbauer, Sammer, etc. Just to be the right guys for the job right now. And that has NOT been proven.

Again, must you overexaggerate so much just to make a point?




Germany are desperate for overall talent in general, and for talent at the center back position specifically. Thus, the Robert Huth debate.

It's f#cking sad that Germany can't do any better.....

You know, when Eriksson was experimenting, he wasn't above giving guys in The Coca-Cola Championship a shot at the national team.

Why didn't Klinsi try to see what's in the 2. Liga??? I know the kid we're getting (Martin Amedick) kicked our asses in the DFB Pokal.....

Why not give a kid like Brzenska a shot?? Although, I think I can answer that. Brzenska must be too slow.

Klinsi sure as hell can't use "Brenzska was on the BVB bench" as an excuse......... :mad:


Maybe Germany can "borrow" someone like Nesta or Canavarro from Italy, if they ask really really nicely. The Italians have excellent defenders up the wazoo, so maybe they can spare one for their good neighbors to the north. :D

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.......

[The Old Lady Hertha]

Going off on a really far tangent now....

But Michael Thurk has turned in a very good season right now for FSV Mainz...10 goals and 5 assists (3.50 Kicker rating) on basically a 2. Bundesliga side is quite impressive. Maybe not impressive enough for the squad, but something that we should look into.

[footyfan1]

Going off on a really far tangent now....

But Michael Thurk has turned in a very good season right now for FSV Mainz...10 goals and 5 assists (3.50 Kicker rating) on basically a 2. Bundesliga side is quite impressive. Maybe not impressive enough for the squad, but something that we should look into.


I just asked in the Player Selection and Team Tactics thread why didn't Klinsi look to the 2. Liga for some talent too?

Eriksson wasn't above looking for players in The Coca-Cola Championship.....

[The Old Lady Hertha]

I just asked in the Player Selection and Team Tactics thread why didn't Klinsi look to the 2. Liga for some talent too?

Eriksson wasn't above looking for players in The Coca-Cola Championship.....

Unfortunately he's not a defender :(

[footyfan1]

Unfortunately he's not a defender :(


I meant overall. There have to be some good, young, German defenders in the 2. Liga.

BVB is getting one next season. Because they play in the 2. Liga, they aren't good enough??

I don't know if that is right. I know they don't get much press and that's what's killing them more than anything.

[scorpio81]

can klinsi watch 2.bundesliga broadcasts over in la? i doubt he takes it in very much, sadly...

[galileo]

can klinsi watch 2.bundesliga broadcasts over in la? i doubt he takes it in very much, sadly...

Exactly!!!

To me, if Klinsi is seriously considering Huth then he is truly out of touch. Huth may have"potential" but he is simply not ready. Without a firm foudation you can do nothing. He better get it right in the back wether 3 or 4 Our midfield is great but our attack is a bit better than average and our backline is dreadful. Hell bring back nowotny. Ok maybe that is going a bit far.

[footyfan1]

can klinsi watch 2.bundesliga broadcasts over in la? i doubt he takes it in very much, sadly...


As the other person said. Exactly.

[JeffS]

Exactly!!!

To me, if Klinsi is seriously considering Huth then he is truly out of touch. Huth may have"potential" but he is simply not ready. Without a firm foudation you can do nothing. He better get it right in the back wether 3 or 4 Our midfield is great but our attack is a bit better than average and our backline is dreadful. Hell bring back nowotny. Ok maybe that is going a bit far.

Truth be told, I'd rather Klinsmann consider only players who are regular starters for their clubs, and players with at least a little bit of experience. That rules out Huth, except as a back up only (to be used only in emergencies).

We've gone over it ad naseum, but Woerns should be first in line, in terms of experience, skill, and current form. Then maybe Fahrenhorst, then maybe Mertesacker.

CMetz and Huth should further down on the pecking order, being that they are not playing regularily for their clubs. If they can't get first team action for their clubs, they shouldn't be starters for Germany. This is particularily true with CMetz, since he has a much less experienced Brzenska starting ahead of him. It's not as true with Huth, since he has two experenced, world class players starting ahead of him.

Oh well, it's all totally slim pickin's

[footyfan1]

Truth be told, I'd rather Klinsmann consider only players who are regular starters for their clubs, and players with at least a little bit of experience. That rules out Huth, except as a back up only (to be used only in emergencies).

We've gone over it ad naseum, but Woerns should be first in line, in terms of experience, skill, and current form. Then maybe Fahrenhorst, then maybe Mertesacker.

CMetz and Huth should further down on the pecking order, being that they are not playing regularily for their clubs. If they can't get first team action for their clubs, they shouldn't be starters for Germany. This is particularily true with CMetz, since he has a much less experienced Brzenska starting ahead of him. It's not as true with Huth, since he has two experenced, world class players starting ahead of him.

Oh well, it's all totally slim pickin's


You nailed it there.

Although, again, even though Huth has two very good players in front of him (I hardly think John Terry is "World Class"), Huth still wouldn't start on most good teams in Europe, so that's not really a mitigating circumstance for him.

The rest is a general observation, not directed at you "JeffS".....

Robert Huth is a kid who's never done squat in his career. At least others have helped their hype with even a few brilliant performances.

Huth has done nothing. He's all hype. But the press tells us he's the future, so we drink the Kool-Aid and say "More please......."

Everyone up to and including the German National Manager. But at least he's seen the light and called up Kehl and Manuel Friedrich (Mainz) for the USA match. I credit Klinsmann for that.

But I'm so sick of the press telling people who's good and who isn't and people just believing what they are told instead of checking things out for themselves.

You know, I remember when the German press told us Benjamin Auer was Germany's future at the striker position too.

Another perfect example of a kid with a world of potential who's never come close to living up to it........

[JeffS]

You nailed it there.

Although, again, even though Huth has two very good players in front of him (I hardly think John Terry is "World Class"), Huth still wouldn't start on most good teams in Europe, so that's not really a mitigating circumstance for him.

The rest is a general observation, not directed at you "JeffS".....

Robert Huth is a kid who's never done squat in his career. At least others have helped their hype with even a few brilliant performances.

Huth has done nothing. He's all hype. But the press tells us he's the future, so we drink the Kool-Aid and say "More please......."

Everyone up to and including the German National Manager. But at least he's seen the light and called up Kehl and Manuel Friedrich (Mainz) for the USA match. I credit Klinsmann for that.

But I'm so sick of the press telling people who's good and who isn't and people just believing what they are told instead of checking things out for themselves.

You know, I remember when the German press told us Benjamin Auer was Germany's future at the striker position too.

Another perfect example of a kid with a world of potential who's never come close to living up to it........

I guess the hype for Huth is due to a level of desperation. And really, Germany are in a transition phase (a long one at that), with Klinsmann going for the youngsters.

I'm really really glad Klinsmann has called up Kehl. I've always like Kehl's game. I think he's quite good as a true defensive mid (something Klinsmann has to start deploying), or as a classic libero, something he did at Freiburg, and for Germany at WC02. I'd be quite happy if Kehl is deployed as a starter at either position.

As for Manuel Friedrich, I know nothing about him, so I can't comment. Any perspective on his skills/abilities would be greatly appreciated.

[schafer]

A little Huth update for those who don't see him regularly:

He has started the last few games in the league, and has looked a lot better than last year, IMO. He played very well against Tottenham (he was beaten in the air when they scored, but other than that), and he did very well to control Mido and especially Keane, who is the type of player he usually has trouble with, alongside JT. He's looking more comfortable, and not committing as many foolish fouls. His performance against WBA was the best he's played all season, he was rarely, if ever, caught out of position, and he made an outstanding last ditch tackle.

I don't think he is ready for the WC yet, but if his form continues, he could be a reasonable choice, depending on who he plays alongside (I'm not that familiar w/ the German national team) and who plays d-mid.

[Snakeater]

Schafer, Thanks for the update. Much appreciated.

[schafer]

Schafer, Thanks for the update. Much appreciated.

No problem. :)

[Jaison]

Asamoah was again great today for Schalke vs. Palermo. He set up both Larsen's and Azaouagh's goals, with his setup for Mimoun's goal being very impressive. I think Asamoah would be a great player to have coming off the bench during the WC.

[F96]

I had posted on another thread. Re: The strikers---Gosh, it's sad--that the great "German striker" has disappeared. That being said---does anyone agree with me on Klinsi & his "love affair" with Asamoah. What does Klinsi see in this guy? :confused: He's done nothing in Bundeliga play & looked bad against Italy--I don't think he belongs on the team. My strikers would be--Podolski-Klose (starters)----Hanke- Neuville & Kiessling. I hope to hear some response to this. Thanks--Wotan

You should have seen Schalke - Palermo this week, then you'd understand. He was brilliant.

Waiting for an answer (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7028977&postcount=42).