Not always the greatest fans the world has ever seen........

[Samarkand]

Much has been written about the fans of Liverpool, what with their famed evenhandedness, respect and acknowledgment of other teams. Chants of "Champions" to a Leeds team that had just nicked the title at Anfield and the general banter between the Kop and the away keepers. Fair play has always been the order of the day. More than most grounds, Anfield, and Liverpool supporters in general, were nearly always seen as a cut above the others, more classy.

When hooliganism was running rampant in English football 20 and more years ago, Anfield was usually an oasis. Now that's not to say that it was inhabited by cherubs strewing rose petals before opposing fans, but the understanding was that Anfield was about football first and everything came came second, unlike say, the Stretford End or the Den or the Shed. Other grounds and other fans were famous for that stuff, not Liverpool fans, not Anfield.

Not excusing what happened in the least, but Heysel was an irony in the extreme; that was never the MO of Liverpool fans. And with Hillborough, well, surely the gods were toying with those fabulous supporters?

But something has changed in recent years. Many fans now recognise that the derby has mutated from an edgy banter and wind up, with the prospect of an infrequent thumping perhaps, from that, to an eye-popping, vein-throbbing, head-kicking hate fest where an off is now as good as guaranteed. Obviously the BlueSlime must hold some of the blame here, but neither, as I said, is Anfield filled with cherubs.

And when you think that Liverpool fans have rehabilitated themselves from Heysel, especially with the Juve games last season and as they most undoubtedly did in Istanbul, there is a smear or two with the Michael Shields affair. I'm not for one moment implying that he did do what he's been convicted of, but a Liverpool fan most certainly did. And confessed to same.

And what of Anfield? The animosity between Liverpool and the Mancs is legendary, but not only is it (the animosity) guilty of believing its own press, it further guilty of running away with it. I, as a Liverpool fan, was more than a little sad to hear the morons chanting the Riise song at Smith on Saturday; it's entirely possible that they didn't realsie the extent of the injury, but still. I do realise that the vast majority of Liverpool fans were concerned/respectful, but there was a significant minority chanting. Significant enough for every major paper to comment on it. And that's not the Anfield we know, but it is the type of fan that does seem to be increasingly common.

Added to that you then have enough reports for a kernel of truth, probably more, emanating from Anfield that Liverpool fans were throwing plastic cups of shit down onto the Manc fans. I, for one, do not want to be associated with these "fans." I recognise that the Manc fans also are not cherubs, but They're Worse is never an acceptable excuse and it was never one Liverpool fans have used before. Throwing cups of shit is inexcusable. Imagine the outrage had this been done to Liverpool fans in say, Italy or Turkey.

And another nail in the coffin, another motif to add to the badge of shame, was the attack (http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,1715810,00.html) on the ambulance taking Smith to the hospital on Saturday, trying to overturn it. Why? Why did these Liverpool "fans" attack an ambulance where they, perhaps unlike their counterparts at Anfield, had to know the seriousness of the injury? What would have been achieved by that? I'm sure part of the defense will be to claim - It was only [Insert number here] morons or It only happens with the Mancs or It doesn't happen that often or They started it or They did worse or somesuch. But, you know what? None of those paltry excuses are good enough, because there is no excuse.

It's not good enough for the high standards that hundreds of thousands of Liverpool fans have set throughout England, across Europe and the world. And for the stunning success that Istanbul was in this respect, Anfield on Saturday was a serious blemish. Granted Istanbul was a bigger success than Anfield was a failure, but that ameliorates Saturday only slightly.

Absolutely, most definitely and completely did those "fans" let us all down at the weekend. It's inexcusable. It's shameful. It's unacceptable.

For whom do they speak? I know not for me.

[Twenty26Six]

I don't condone this, but I wonder how Gary Neville feels about it all? I wonder if he realized how dumb it is to purposely incite fans after a match... probably not.

[Matt Clark]

Dunno what chin-stroker wrote this, but it was Arsenal, not Leeds, who were serenaded with chants of "Champions" and anyone who thinks there was no hooliganism at Anfield or regular, planned hooliganism involving Liverpool fans in the 1980's is either highly delusional or plain uninformed.

WRT the animosity on Sunday last, it was an eye-opener. As I said in another thread, I've not seen it that bad in years. And sure, Liverpool fans inside and outside the ground played their part in that. As did the Mancs, with relish.

Whether it warrants this amount of hand-wringing in the broadsheets is a moot point. Some might be moved to note that such chatter says more about the game of football in this country today than the events of Sunday do.

[Charleysurf]

I don't condone this, but I wonder how Gary Neville feels about it all? I wonder if he realized how dumb it is to purposely incite fans after a match... probably not.
Yes, of course. It was anger at Gary Neville that drove those Liverpool "fans" to attack Alan Smith's ambulance.

You should just condemn those boneheads the way Liverpool FC have done. No excuses.

[stanaccrington]

Yes, of course. It was anger at Gary Neville that drove those Liverpool "fans" to attack Alan Smith's ambulance.

You should just condemn those boneheads the way Liverpool FC have done. No excuses.

Sorry to upset the media and the Scum supporters, but that attack on the Ambulance was not only greatly overstated but also cranked up a couple of notches by the so called media.
My brother, a 40yr old man witnessed the said incident and told me it was about 7 12year olds who were banging on the side of the Ambulance as it pushed is way through a crowd of about 2000 people, most people got out of the way but a couple of kids banged the sides, as kids do, also the song that the crowd was singing, which started before the Ambulance arrived on the scene was the fields of Anfield rd and ring of fire, which must to a reporter sound like Munich!!!!!!

[usscouse]

Absolutely, most definitely and completely did those "fans" let us all down at the weekend. It's inexcusable. It's shameful. It's unacceptable.

For whom do they speak? I know not for me.Supposing that half of what the media claims here and try and remember what the media is like in the UK. It is still unacceptable.

There's a fringe element in all crowds that don't go for the games. They have a different agenda, for you to try and tar the whole of the Liverpool fan base with this same brush is a little overkill, and over dramatized, don't you think?

I've been a fan longer than most and have seen some things that I haven't been proud of but I've also seen it policed out by the real fans around.

Both United and LFC have issued this statement, according to The Guardian...

"These people aren't real fans of football," United and Liverpool said in a joint statement last night. "Both clubs feel the mindless actions of a few idiots should not overshadow the efforts of all involved to make sure Alan received the best possible treatment as soon as possible. Manchester United would also like to point out they are very grateful for the speedy and efficient help of all Liverpool staff."

See, It wasn't all the Kop that was out there...:)

[Rahbiefowlah]

Uninformed here, what is the Riise song? Thanks.

Also, having seen Liverpool away in europe 4 times (so a quite limited experience) my initial impression that if you're in a red shirt or exude respect and humility, Liverpool fans are the most enjoyable, reasonable, humble people you'll ever meet. But, if it's a fight that you want, the red mist will decend.

[Samarkand]

Dunno what chin-stroker wrote this,
What the ******** does that mean? I really take exception to this. I wrote it, every ********ing word of it. So it makes me a chin-stroker? Except that you usually are a semblance of sanity here, trust me, I'd respond with a lot more forceful language, some of which would include stronger language than "********." I don't ********ing post on these boards to be abused, an admonition I think you'll find in some of your own Introductions to these Liverpool boards.but it was Arsenal, not Leeds, who were serenaded with chants of "Champions"And no, Matt, you are wrong there. ********ing wrong, can you believe it? It happened on April 28th 1969 where Leeds drew with Liverpool at Anfield and extinguished Liverpool's title chances. After the game, Bremner and Co. were very worried about what the reception would be like and were prepared for the worst. They were stunned by the reception from the Kop who started the "Champions" chant which later permeated the entire ground.

The Kop has always been known and respected for its knowledge about the game and its sportsmanship. If a team comes to Anfield and turns on the style The Kop will acknowledge it. If a team comes to Anfield and achieves, the Kop will acknowledge.

This can be demonstrated when Leeds came to Anfield in April 1969. A draw meant that Leeds had won the Championship and killed off any lingering chance of the title for Liverpool. The Kop responded by clapping Leeds with a thunderous ovation as they began to take a lap of honour, and the Leeds players were greeted warmly as they took the trophy down to the Kop end. Here. (http://www.redandwhitekop.com/article.php?id=447813)

They may have done the same to Arsenal years later, but that was an echo of April 1969.


Belive it or not and anyone who thinks there was no hooliganism at Anfield or regular, planned hooliganism involving Liverpool fans in the 1980's is either highly delusional or plain uninformed.
Well, guess what, Matt? I'm neither highly ********ing delusional nor plainly ********ing uninformed. My point was, and while reading is fundamental here, comprehension is even more so, :rolleyes: my point, was that Anfield in the 70s and 80s was not known for hooliganism as other places. The Streford End, the Shed, and the Den, to use three examples - you understand an example right? - were famous for their hooliganism, not their sense of fair play or however you want to describe the generosity of the Kop. I specifically did say that Liverpool fans were no angels, (that's the reading bit) but it was the reputation of them and the Kop to which I was alluding.

WRT theanimosity on Sunday last, it was an eye-opener. As I said in another thread, I've not seen it that bad in years.Again comprehension is vital, Matt. My point was that yes, it was bad on Saturday, but given the atmosphere at the derby in particular in recent years, something has really changed at Anfield in recent years. And sure, Liverpool fans inside and outside the ground played their part in that. As did the Mancs, with relish.Agreed, but as I said, why is anything Manc fans do an excuse?

Whether it warrants this amount of hand-wringing in the broadsheets is a moot point. Some might be moved to note that such chatter says more about the game of football in this country today than the events of Sunday do.You know, I don't really care about navel gazing here. "Warranting hand wringing" or "such chatter saying more" or "moot points" or the like, well yeah, interesting :rolleyes:

The theme of my post was that as Liverpool fans, we were all let down by the morons on Staurday, both inside and outside the ground who claimed to be Liverpool fans. And given the history of Liverpool fans and the Kop this reflects badly on all of us who are Liverpool fans.

[Bobinhood]

Everyone take a deep breath and go have a few swings at gary neville. does a man wonders, that.

And yes i know its indicative of my deeply debased moral character....but manc fans covered in shit.....well....sorry...i know im deranged and all...but i laughed out loud at that. Who the hell goes to the kind of trouble it must take to crap in a paper cup lol. clearly this must be grade school kids at work. :)

Overall, of course its very bad, turnabout is fair play etc etc, but i cant help thinking that it coulnt of happened to a much nicer buncha guys :)

[stanaccrington]

was that Anfield in the 70s and 80s was not known for hooliganism as other places. The Streford End, the Shed, and the Den

Thats because nobody except Liverpool Supporters stood on the kop and the bizzys kept us segragated, some of the dogs were as big as horse's, I remember going to old Trafford and invading the strety end, what a fight that was, did you ever travel by train to away games? I could start a thread with some of those stories. No Liverpool supporters have never been angels and Hysel was a prime example, only a couple of weeks before they had had over 100 supporters arrested at Norwich for rioting in the streets.


http://www.geocities.com/view_from_the_terrace/ma_li89b.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/view_from_the_terrace/ma_li89c.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/view_from_the_terrace/wig_bol_86_a.jpg

[AndSomeAreAngels]

What the ******** does that mean? I really take exception to this. I wrote it, every ********ing word of it. So it makes me a chin-stroker? Except that you usually are a semblance of sanity here, trust me, I'd respond with a lot more forceful language, some of which would include stronger language than "********." I don't ********ing post on these boards to be abused, an admonition I think you'll find in some of your own Introductions to these Liverpool boards.
Calm down. Slow breaths. Go to your happy place.

[usscouse]

some of the dogs were as big as horse's,

http://www.geocities.com/view_from_the_terrace/ma_li89b.jpg

Looks like they were big enough to put a saddle on. It still looks like a horse though.....:)

[liverbird]

Uninformed here, what is the Riise song? Thanks.

.

The Riise song is "John Ar-ne Rii-se, Ooh Ah, I wanta know-ow-ow, how you scored that goal" It comes from his wonder strike against ManUre a few years ago. Watching the game on television, it was not at all clear originally what had happened to Smith. It appeared that perhaps JAR's shot had knocked the wind out of him. In the ground from the Kop it would have been even more confusing. So in the early moments some on the Kop sang audibly the Riise song. It died out rather quickly as the stretcher and medics hovered about him. That the leg was as badly broken might not have been evident on the ground for some time.

On the broader subject I am no expert but there will always be bad behavior when beer, rivalry, and emotion come together.

[Matt Clark]

I would like to publically add to what I have said in PM to Samarkand - my sincere apologies for causing offence. I thought the initial post was a cut'n'paste from an article by some Guardian wallah, hence the unembellished form of response. I do disagree with Samarkand on the content of what he wrote, but can well understand that he would take exception to the tone of my response having gone to all that trouble to compose what is a very well-written piece.

I'm sorry.

EDIT: Fully agree with this bit:

The theme of my post was that as Liverpool fans, we were all let down by the morons on Staurday, both inside and outside the ground who claimed to be Liverpool fans. And given the history of Liverpool fans and the Kop this reflects badly on all of us who are Liverpool fans.

[Bobinhood]

Cmon matt, think you can get away with that kinda thing just cause you havent slept a night through in 2 months? :D These new fathers are all the same ;)

hope everyone took at shot at gary neville anyway lol. Its just the right thing to do.

[Matt Clark]

;)

No, I can't claim sleep depravation. It wasn't on and I do sincerely apologise.

[King-James]

Watching the game on television, it was not at all clear originally what had happened to Smith.

Honestly, after seeing 3-4 replays of it, I still didn't get what was so obviously bad about it. It was highlights - I already knew he was badly injured - but I know in real time I wouldn't have been able to tell that it was anything more than something minor like you said.

[Samarkand]

I would like to publically add to what I have said in PM to Samarkand - my sincere apologies for causing offence. I thought the initial post was a cut'n'paste from an article by some Guardian wallah, hence the unembellished form of response. I do disagree with Samarkand on the content of what he wrote, but can well understand that he would take exception to the tone of my response having gone to all that trouble to compose what is a very well-written piece.

I'm sorry.
Cheers; no problems now, everything reset to zero.

(Should the hug thing be done in private or in public?)

[browfish]

I think I'm going to cry...

[Bobinhood]

See: Belting Gary Neville in the face is good. Very good. :)