Whites V Cockney Waaankaaaas 18/2/06 FA Cup [R}

[Prenn]

Time to take on West Ham yet again. Like Arsenal, Wigan and soon Zenit St Petersburg ( ;) ) they seem to be a team that we like to play often.

Team news later.

I expect the side to be pretty much the same as wednesday except Jansen in for Borgetti and Speed in for Okocha.

[Indiana Jones]

Time to take on West Ham yet again. Like Arsenal, Wigan and soon Zenit St Petersburg ( ;) ) they seem to be a team that we like to play often.

Team news later.

I expect the side to be pretty much the same as wednesday except Jansen in for Borgetti and Speed in for Okocha.

Why the hell did Fat Sam sign Borgetti and then not play him......he plays well every time he plays ...... but thats not often.

[mphoenix]

Why the hell did Fat Sam sign Borgetti and then not play him......he plays well every time he plays ...... but thats not often.

As cover for the African Nations, you goon.

You know sod all about Bolton, so don't even post in here.

Anyway, back on topic, we were robbed, Stelios had a goal disallowed for offside, although he was clearly ONside. I think the referee and his linesman were both from League 1, maybe lower, the decisions were awful.

[Prenn]

Why the hell did Fat Sam sign Borgetti and then not play him......he plays well every time he plays ...... but thats not often.

You'd be right if you weren't so wrong. Borgetti plays very mediocre everytime he plays. He occasionally scores which is generally his only contribution to a game, when he doesn't score he takes up a position that could be filled by a more useful player.

[Nixon]

You'd be right if you weren't so wrong. Borgetti plays very mediocre everytime he plays. He occasionally scores which is generally his only contribution to a game, when he doesn't score he takes up a position that could be filled by a more useful player.

Cant you do me a favour and copy that answer on to all the other threads that people keep askin that on, gettin real tired of people askin.

[Prenn]

Cant you do me a favour and copy that answer on to all the other threads that people keep askin that on, gettin real tired of people askin.

Should I post it as a sticky? ;)

[El Cabrito]

You'd be right if you weren't so wrong. Borgetti plays very mediocre everytime he plays. He occasionally scores which is generally his only contribution to a game, when he doesn't score he takes up a position that could be filled by a more useful player.


By all other soccer coaches definitions (except sam allerdyce). Scoring is a forwards primary job. Do we atleast agree on that. Lets just say sam values other qualities in a forward and expects them to do other things on the field than to just score. But to call Borgetti mediocre is really out of line, he does his primary job (to score) better than all other striker in Bolton. It just so happens he's entered Bazzaro world.

[Nixon]

Should I post it as a sticky? ;)

Now thats a damn good idea.


By all other soccer coaches definitions (except sam allerdyce). Scoring is a forwards primary job. Do we atleast agree on that. Lets just say sam values other qualities in a forward and expects them to do other things on the field than to just score. But to call Borgetti mediocre is really out of line, he does his primary job (to score) better than all other striker in Bolton. It just so happens he's entered Bazzaro world.

Any good coach would understand teamwork and keeping your players happy, If Alladyce rewards Borgetti's lazy approach to the game with starts its sending a bad message to the other players, Borgetti cant score without a team to support him and at the moment hes not a member of the team, until hes willing to work hard he'll be a fringe player. Alladyce has always rewarded plays who show passion and workrate over anyone else, its why were top half of the premiership with the smallest squad in the league. If you think you can do better then you should go get your badges.

[El Cabrito]

Any good coach would understand teamwork and keeping your players happy, If Alladyce rewards Borgetti's lazy approach to the game with starts its sending a bad message to the other players, Borgetti cant score without a team to support him and at the moment hes not a member of the team, until hes willing to work hard he'll be a fringe player. Alladyce has always rewarded plays who show passion and workrate over anyone else, its why were top half of the premiership with the smallest squad in the league. If you think you can do better then you should go get your badges.


So to summurize your position:

1. A forwards primary responsibility is to defend, at least in bolton (hello Bazaro world)

2. A good way of keeping a prolific goal scorer (at the international and at a very competitive club level) happy is by benching him over some recently released nobody. Considering the fact that this a WC year and this interantionally known striker decided to come over at your managers request and moved his whole bloody family to a new country. Yep sam certainly understands how to keep his players happy.

You know frankly I normally subscribe to chalking it up to the fact that Borgetti does not fit in with Bolton's style of play. I just had to come to defense of Borgetti because if he is mediocre than I guess that makes the rest of the Bolton forwards crap.

[Nixon]

So to summurize your position:

1. A forwards primary responsibility is to defend, at least in bolton (hello Bazaro world)

2. A good way of keeping a prolific goal scorer (at the international and at a very competitive club level) happy is by benching him over some recently released nobody. Considering the fact that this a WC year and this interantionally known striker decided to come over at your managers request and moved his whole bloody family to a new country. Yep sam certainly understands how to keep his players happy.

You know frankly I normally subscribe to chalking it up to the fact that Borgetti does not fit in with Bolton's style of play. I just had to come to defense of Borgetti because if he is mediocre than I guess that makes the rest of the Bolton forwards crap.

Where did i say he had to defend? he has to play, he comes on the field and hardly moves hes lazy. Since Jansen arrived at the club hes run his legs off every game, and he has caused problems to the defence, this is a strikers defence, keeping the ball in the opponants half. Borgetti is lazy thats my only problem with him, its like playing with 10 men, however if the ball and him get close to the goal we have few better, if we were a better passing team we could afford to play him however our game requires all players to pressurise and push for errors, he doesnt, so he doesnt get games.

[Wanderer_ash_19]

Borgetti is an out and out striker. He finishes the ball when its in the box no doubt but when do bolton every get a chance where the ball is actually sat in the box with no defenders crowding them? its not our style of play. we crowd the box. borgetti needs a team where he can score with the run of play. most of our goals come from set pieces. to be honest its only stelios i have seen run onto a through ball and score this season for the whites.... we are a great team but no to the style of flowing football. Stick to the system big sam.

Ash

[mphoenix]

Diouf's goal was after Davies ran onto a through ball. Unless you mean straight from the through ball.

By all other soccer coaches definitions (except sam allerdyce). Scoring is a forwards primary job. Do we atleast agree on that. Lets just say sam values other qualities in a forward and expects them to do other things on the field than to just score.

Put it this way. Borgetti would score one every three or four matches. But if you had less greedy players (eg; Davies, Vaz Te, Jansen, etc.) on the pitch, they would contribute more as a team, and therefore score more goals.

I just had to come to defense of Borgetti because if he is mediocre than I guess that makes the rest of the Bolton forwards crap.

No, Borgetti IS mediocre. I wouldn't mind if he got one or two goals every game, but he doesn't. I bet Davies or any other of our players (except Jaaskelainen) take part in more goals per game, than Borgetti.

1. A forwards primary responsibility is to defend, at least in bolton (hello Bazaro world)


So you say defending's got nothing to do with being a striker?

Alright, picture this. 1-0 up, 85th minute, the other team always on attack, throwing everybody up, maybe leaving one centre back, and the keeper back (luckily for Chelsea, they have a dual purpose player, who can play in these positions, but that's another story) We leave our attacking trio up, so then we're out numbered at the back. They're more likely to score, than if we bring those 3 players back.

Did you see the Bolton vs West Ham match? Vaz Te came back, when there were plenty more players up, and made a very, very important tackle. So, yes, strikers should defend.

[El Cabrito]

Put it this way. Borgetti would score one every three or four matches. But if you had less greedy players (eg; Davies, Vaz Te, Jansen, etc.) on the pitch, they would contribute more as a team, and therefore score more goals.



Really lets put this to the test...


Kevin Davies 30 starts 1 in as a substitute has a total of 2 goals scored and 1 assist.

Ricardo Vaz Te has 3 Starts 16 Substitutions and 3 goals and 4 assists to show for it.

Diouf 20 starts 5 subs and 4 goals and 1 Assist.

Borgetti has 9 Starts 12 Substitutions and 6 Goals to his tally.

Thus at the end of the day borgetti has as many goals as both of your leading strikers combined in much less time.

Secondly I don't get why you claim Borgetti doing his job is selfish. The guy is paid to make goals and he does that rather well. Actually I think a midfielder or a defender complaing about a guy scoring all the goals is much more selfish. It's a freekin team everyone has their responsibilities and they have to rely on each other to be succesful.





No, Borgetti IS mediocre. I wouldn't mind if he got one or two goals every game, but he doesn't. I bet Davies or any other of our players (except Jaaskelainen) take part in more goals per game, than Borgetti.

You can reference the stats above to find out that your statement is inacurate.



So you say defending's got nothing to do with being a striker?

Alright, picture this. 1-0 up, 85th minute, the other team always on attack, throwing everybody up, maybe leaving one centre back, and the keeper back (luckily for Chelsea, they have a dual purpose player, who can play in these positions, but that's another story) We leave our attacking trio up, so then we're out numbered at the back. They're more likely to score, than if we bring those 3 players back.

Did you see the Bolton vs West Ham match? Vaz Te came back, when there were plenty more players up, and made a very, very important tackle. So, yes, strikers should defend.

1) I said defending is not a strikers priority. A strikers priority is to make sure you score goals. Put it this way, you don't earn your keep as a striker by defending, you earn it by scoring goals. Go to any club in the world (except Bolton) and try out for the striker position and defend 90 % of the time and I gurantee you that you won't make the team as a forward.

2) In your hypothetical situation, ofcourse you bring players back to defend, and hope your coach hasn't foolishly wasted the substitutions and possibly make a defensive substitution. But even then you are likely asking your forwards to apply pressure near the midfield line, and mostly trying to snuff out the support from the back. (Now in your hypothetical question, would it change anything if Borgetti happens to be the most likely person to put you up 1-0 in the first place)?

3) I saw Ricardo's play, isolated incident and the defender screwed up, it's good to have that type of player, but its better to have defenders that don't screw up.

[mphoenix]

Secondly I don't get why you claim Borgetti doing his job is selfish. The guy is paid to make goals and he does that rather well. Actually I think a midfielder or a defender complaing about a guy scoring all the goals is much more selfish. It's a freekin team everyone has their responsibilities and they have to rely on each other to be succesful.

He never passes, he thinks he can take on all the defenders, but he actually can't, he takes the ball off his team mates.

He plays for himself, he couldn't give a toss where Bolton end up.

[El Cabrito]

He never passes, he thinks he can take on all the defenders, but he actually can't, he takes the ball off his team mates.

He plays for himself, he couldn't give a toss where Bolton end up.

Still bitter about that goal that he scored are we? The other characteristics are not typical Borgetti traits. Oviously if he gets the ball in the area he should look to shoot the ball, but I think he knows he is not a great dribbler and he usually does a good job at playing within his limitations.

But to be honest. If I was in Borgetti's shoes and had been misled the way he has, I wouldn't give a flying f#%k about Bolton either.

[Indiana Jones]

He never passes, he thinks he can take on all the defenders, but he actually can't, he takes the ball off his team mates.

He plays for himself, he couldn't give a toss where Bolton end up.

How the hell do you know a ff about whats in Borgettis mind?

Borgetti will shine at the world cup as he has before with Mexico, a team ranked #6 in the World. Just how many Bolton other Bolton players can even think of making a world cup squad? Not many. Bolton is a team that is reliant upon physicality and score most goals from set pieces. Certainly Borgetti is more of a finesse player which is a quality wasted on any Botlon team, however as Bolton scores many of its goals on set pieces by lumping the ball into the box Brogetti is a wasted asset as he is good at at scoring from restarts.

[Prenn]

How the hell do you know a ff about whats in Borgettis mind?

Borgetti will shine at the world cup as he has before with Mexico, a team ranked #6 in the World. Just how many Bolton other Bolton players can even think of making a world cup squad? Not many. Bolton is a team that is reliant upon physicality and score most goals from set pieces. Certainly Borgetti is more of a finesse player which is a quality wasted on any Botlon team, however as Bolton scores many of its goals on set pieces by lumping the ball into the box Brogetti is a wasted asset as he is good at at scoring from restarts.

We have a saying here in England.

Utter tripe.

Borgetti is too slow and too weak to cope with the Premiership, he doesn't know how to fight for a ball and looks out of his depth most of the time. His one, just one asset is that he can put the ball in the back of the net occasionally but unfortunately that doesn't cut it at this level. He needs to have more to his game and he doesn't hence he finds himself on the bench so often. Despite having a pedigree as a goalscorer he's not the goal machine that a lot of Mexican fans think he is, we've not got the luxury of carrying someone who is quite frankly lazy (or unfit). Also out of all our strikers; Davies, Diouf, Borgetti, Jansen and Vaz Te Jared is the least skilful, it's not a good sign when you've less overall ability than Davies.

[El Cabrito]

We have a saying here in England.

Utter tripe.

Borgetti is too slow and too weak to cope with the Premiership, he doesn't know how to fight for a ball and looks out of his depth most of the time. His one, just one asset is that he can put the ball in the back of the net occasionally but unfortunately that doesn't cut it at this level. He needs to have more to his game and he doesn't hence he finds himself on the bench so often. Despite having a pedigree as a goalscorer he's not the goal machine that a lot of Mexican fans think he is, we've not got the luxury of carrying someone who is quite frankly lazy (or unfit). Also out of all our strikers; Davies, Diouf, Borgetti, Jansen and Vaz Te Jared is the least skilful, it's not a good sign when you've less overall ability than Davies.

In Mexico we have a saying also

Que pendjadas!


The ability to score isn't just another quality it is THE quality. You and your cult like following of Sam Allerdyce seem to have been misled, the point of soccer is to SCORE not to run around like morons for 90 minutes pressuring deffenses. Yes we get it you guys have low self esteme, Bolton has been crap for so long that some mediocre coach comes along and gets you mediocre results and suddenly he is God and should not be questioned. Its Borgettis fault for not doing his homewrok on what club he was getting into.

Respect is a two way street, to those fans who think Borgetti doesn't play for Bolton but for himself, please answer what exactly has Bolton done for Borgetti for him to wear himself out for the team? He gives you important points, and key goals, and you go out and get some crap scrub to replace him.

[Nixon]

In Mexico we have a saying also

Que pendjadas!


The ability to score isn't just another quality it is THE quality. You and your cult like following of Sam Allerdyce seem to have been misled, the point of soccer is to SCORE not to run around like morons for 90 minutes pressuring deffenses. Yes we get it you guys have low self esteme, Bolton has been crap for so long that some mediocre coach comes along and gets you mediocre results and suddenly he is God and should not be questioned. Its Borgettis fault for not doing his homewrok on what club he was getting into.

Respect is a two way street, to those fans who think Borgetti doesn't play for Bolton but for himself, please answer what exactly has Bolton done for Borgetti for him to wear himself out for the team? He gives you important points, and key goals, and you go out and get some crap scrub to replace him.

We dont follow Alladyce we follow Bolton and at the moment one of our biggest assets is Alladyce. Borgetti is a key player but where trying to get him to play our game, i believe thats called teamwork (happens to be important in this game). Beside why are you accusing us of being a cult following Alladyce? you guys only want Borgetti to play you have no interest in wether it helps bolton. So if you dont mind we will stick to the play and the players which has given the club the most gloary its had in 50 years and has put us on the way to paying of our debits and becoming a club that can actually start paying moderate sums of money for players. We dont have low self esteme were just realistic, we havent been pulling in the crowds as our fan base is same and we dont expect to gain much money through that but with european football comes money, so if you dont mind i think we'll carry on backing the manager.

[Prenn]

The ability to score isn't just another quality it is THE quality. You and your cult like following of Sam Allerdyce seem to have been misled, the point of soccer is to SCORE not to run around like morons for 90 minutes pressuring deffenses.

Such a simplistic view of football, a good striker needs to do more than just score goals. He needs to be involved in all aspects of play and not just piss about six yards out hoping to nick the ball off someone elses foot. It's simple, we score more and are a better team when Borgetti is not playing. I understand that it must be really hard for you to accept that third rate English players like Davies and Jansen are better than Borgetti but that's just the way it is, they have more to their game. Borgetti is not a goalscorer of the calibre of Henry or VanNistelrooy, he'll struggle to get much more than 10 goals in a season in all competitions.

Yes we get it you guys have low self esteme, Bolton has been crap for so long that some mediocre coach comes along and gets you mediocre results and suddenly he is God and should not be questioned.

The Cult of Allardyce... I like it, shame you're clueless.

Its Borgettis fault for not doing his homewrok on what club he was getting into

Yeah, he should have gone to Chelsea instead.

Respect is a two way street, to those fans who think Borgetti doesn't play for Bolton but for himself, please answer what exactly has Bolton done for Borgetti for him to wear himself out for the team?

Man, that's going in the dumbest post thread. Your northern neighbours are going to have fun with this! As a new signing at a club he should be giving 100% to make a good impression and to cement his place in the team, he's either not done that or his 100% is not good enough. Bolton pay his wages, that is more than enough reason to have him work hard.

He gives you important points, and key goals, and you go out and get some crap scrub to replace him.

LOL. Borgetti marginalises the rest of the team, we score fewer goals when he's involved because attacks break down quicker and he can't retain the ball. It's no use if he scores one goal instead of the rest of the team scoring three or four. Calling Jansen a 'scrub'... LOL If he was Mexican the pre-2002 Jansen would have been one of Mexico's best ever players. The lad had everything except the sense to drive a car instead of a bike.