Donovan in comparison to world class midfielders

[NoSix]

No one ever said that Donovan was better. You're attacking an argument that wasn't stated. He's just trying to show that if you look at the stats, Donovan is up with the best in the world.

Bingo! Give this man a prize... :D

[Prawn Sandwich]

No one ever said that Donovan was better. You're attacking an argument that wasn't stated. He's just trying to show that if you look at the stats, Donovan is up with the best in the world when you compare them on this largely meaningless statistic that doesn't even come close to encompassing the entirety of their impact on the pitch, nor does it account for the quality of their team-mates, and thats not even mentioning how statistical analysis this crude should even be used as any form of baseline for a discussion of relative merits of players.

FYP..

[NoSix]

FYP..

So now the argument is that goals are a meaningless statistic? :p

Over here we find them useful for determining the outcome of matches.

[Ghosting]

...it may be biased in favor of good players on weak teams. ...?

That's a good point.

[Ghosting]

...Our C team waxing GUAT's A team a few minutes ago also does not strengthen the argument that the CONCACAF group is good. GUAT almost qualified for the WC. ...
As others have pointed out, the logic that you are employing is essentially circular: Concacaf teams suck in comparison to UEFA teams. US C team beats Guatemalan A team, therefore Concacaf sucks.

This doesn't hold any water. The USA could have won this game easily because we are getting better, and have developed more depth. It could be because we are at the end of a long camp, and Guatemala hasn't played together as much lately. and regardless of any of that, this result tells us nothing about how our region stacks up against other regions.

[Ghosting]

which Ghosting somehow fails to notice has been pointed out numerous times in this thread
I'm not sure how it applies. Does someone have stats on the different strike rates of forwards vs amids?

[Prawn Sandwich]

So now the argument is that goals are a meaningless statistic? :p

Over here we find them useful for determining the outcome of matches.
In the context you've used yes.

Where is the weighting that accounts for the quality of the players team-mates? Where is the weighting for the quality of the actual defenses and goalkeepers those goals were scored against? Where is the weighting for the multitude of other aspects that determine the overall quality of a midfielder?

[sidefootsitter]

As others have pointed out, the logic that you are employing is essentially circular: Concacaf teams suck in comparison to UEFA teams. US C team beats Guatemalan A team, therefore Concacaf sucks.

This doesn't hold any water.... It may or may not hold any water but one sure way to find out is seeing how the same team that crushed Norway's C-squad and Guatemala fares against Poland and Germany and, for that matter, in the World Cup.

FWIW, if the US had a similar conversion rate in Birmingham as it did today, it would have beaten the Guats 7:0 last March.

PS. Poland qualified as the one of the two "best 2nd" teams, but the 2nd places normally went to a 2nd tier play-off.

[NoSix]

In the context you've used yes.

Where is the weighting that accounts for the quality of the players team-mates? Where is the weighting for the quality of the actual defenses and goalkeepers those goals were scored against?

They're in post #154. Maybe you should try reading the thread before posting in it.

[Prawn Sandwich]

They're in post #154. Maybe you should try reading the thread before posting in it.
I did and you haven't accounted for them. What you have done is yet again used one single data point as a metric for measuring a vast number of variables and tried to pass it off as meaningful.

[afgrijselijkheid]

I'm not sure how it applies. Does someone have stats on the different strike rates of forwards vs amids?
so you're telling me that, when supposedly ranking midfielders, one that plays as a withdrawn striker half the time like donovan or totti is getting no unfair advantage over one that actually plays a deep midfield position like ballack or gerrard?

[Ghosting]

so you're telling me that, when supposedly ranking midfielders, one that plays as a withdrawn striker half the time like donovan or totti is getting no unfair advantage over one that actually plays a deep midfield position like ballack or gerrard?
I'm not telling you anything. I'm asking what the difference in strike rate is.

[afgrijselijkheid]

I'm not telling you anything. I'm asking what the difference in strike rate is.
the difference is withdrawn strikers generally score many more goals than holding midfielders, which is unsurprising because they are very different positions

[Ghosting]

the difference is withdrawn strikers generally score many more goals than holding midfielders, which is unsurprising because they are very different positions
You know, that's a great OPINION, and it makes a lot of sense to me, but it doesn't really address the question I asked.

Look, I don't come on BS to try to win arguments. I come here to try to learn things. I assumed that the difference in strike rate between withdrawn forwards and A-Mids would not be as huge as you may think it is. The only way to resolve that is to look at the numbers. You saying it over and over again does not make it true. If you look back over my posts in this thread, I have tried to point out poor reasoning, and have asked for more information. If you have some information to offer other than your opinion, I'd love to hear it.

[afgrijselijkheid]

You know, that's a great OPINION, and it makes a lot of sense to me, but it doesn't really address the question I asked.

Look, I don't come on BS to try to win arguments. I come here to try to learn things. I assumed that the difference in strike rate between withdrawn forwards and A-Mids would not be as huge as you may think it is. The only way to resolve that is to look at the numbers. You saying it over and over again does not make it true. If you look back over my posts in this thread, I have tried to point out poor reasoning, and have asked for more information. If you have some information to offer other than your opinion, I'd love to hear it.
my opinion? :confused:

do i really need to go do a bunch of homework to come up with statistical proof that withdrawn strikers score more than holding midfielders (why do people keep insisting that ballack is a #10?), most likely because they are closer to net more often?

go to soccerbot.com, look at every league's scoring charts and count how many withdrawn strikers are in the top 20 and compare to how many holding midfielders are in there

i'll get you started...

eredivisie - 8 WS, 1 HM
MLS - WS 8, HM 2
bundesliga - 6 WS, 2 HM
la liga - 5 WS, 0 HM

4 league tally - 27 WS, 5 HM

i swear, it's like this thread happens in a vacuum - why can't LD just be really really good until he does things that warrant him being placed into a category with ballack, ronaldinho, lampard and gerrard?

no wonder baby jesus is always frowning

[Ghosting]

...do i really need to go do a bunch of homework to come up with statistical proof that withdrawn strikers score more than holding midfielders (why do people keep insisting that ballack is a #10?), most likely because they are closer to net more often?
...

OK... I'm done with this. Either you don't know the difference between an attacking mid and a holding mid, or you're setting up a straw man in an attempt to not address the questions. Whichever is the case, it's no longer worth my time to be involved in this discussion.

[jcsd]

The difference is Donovan drowns kittens, the others don't (plus they play football to a higher standard).

[sidefootsitter]

I did and you haven't accounted for them. What you have done is yet again used one single data point as a metric for measuring a vast number of variables and tried to pass it off as meaningful. Eddie Johnson scored 8 goals in his first 8 US matches. Ergo, he is superior to Pele, Ferenz Puskas, Marco van Basten, Hugo Sanchez, Mario Kempes, Romario, et al.

I know so, because I've got the stats.

[afgrijselijkheid]

OK... I'm done with this. Either you don't know the difference between an attacking mid and a holding mid, or you're setting up a straw man in an attempt to not address the questions. Whichever is the case, it's no longer worth my time to be involved in this discussion.


you can be intentionally obtuse all you want, but it will never EVER make ballack and donovan players of the same position; yes, ballack is a box-to-box, two-way, tempo controlling central midfielder... arguably, the best one on earth at the moment

you can also huff off in a storm of sanctimony, but it will not change the FACT that withdrawn strikers score many more goals than holding midfielders

i've answered your question repeatedly, you just refuse to hear it

[afgrijselijkheid]

Eddie Johnson scored 8 goals in his first 8 US matches. Ergo, he is superior to Pele, Ferenz Puskas, Marco van Basten, Hugo Sanchez, Mario Kempes, Romario, et al.

I know so, because I've got the stats.
good night folks, drive home safely