Backup D-Mid

[Autogolazo]

Many hypothetical WC rosters from posters here that I've seen has just one true d-mid listed--Pablo Mastroeni--with the assumption that Reyna/JOB will fit in somewhere back there if Pablo goes down. I think that's wrong.

I think that, given our opponents and given Bruce's history of playing with a true d-mid against opponents that are equal to or stronger than us on paper (T&T in Hartford was the exception), we are going to see a true d-mid backing up Pablo.

Zavagnin seems to have done himself a world of good with his fortuitous presence in camp, per Bruce:

"When we put together this roster, we didn’t know what to do with Kerry because we had Pablo coming into camp, Brian Carroll, who ended up the year pretty well for us and Ben Olsen as an option as well. Kerry, in the beginning, was a player on the alternate list and a little bit in the background to players who play similar positions, like a Reyna, an O’Brien. Where does Kerry fit into this whole thing? But all he has done since he’s been in camp is demonstrate that he’s a very a good player. In our camp here, he’s in our first 11. He’s been very good since day one. He offers a lot. He knows how to play the position. He’s a very composed player. He’s a good communicator on the field and a very good teammate. He’s one of these guys that goes unnoticed and only makes your team better. His stock has risen considerably and given the circumstances in our entire pool, Kerry is going to be in there right until the end, when we’re looking to finalize our roster.”

Arguments could be made for Olsen or Carroll (or even Armas, I suppose), but it seems that a lot of people have overlooked the need to have a backup d-mid altogether and left it out of their 23. Thoughts?

[FirstStar]

Bruce loves the D-Mid and it might be a necessary position for us given the Czech's and Ghanan's strength in the midfield. A back-up is smart because of the high probability that Pablo will rack up a few yellows chasing around opposing midfielders. Still, we are starting to run out of roster spots and, IMO, the talent drop-off between Pablo and Kerry is pretty significant. Our offense tends to get choked off against better teams when Kerry is playing-- it's easier to shut down our forwards by making it hard for us to bring the ball up the field. Kerry's usually the weak link in that process. Bruce would do well, I think, to look to other solutions rather than Kerry.

[Winds350]

It's a tactical consideration. Do you bring a backup dmid, or a real RM, or a fourth pure forward, or a fifth CB, or...

It's one of those cases where it isn't a question if Zavagnin, for example, is a better player than someone else, it's more a question of what do you think you are most likely to need or most likely to be really hurt by not having.

If either Reyna or JOB can't go, at least one backup dmid goes, and it's not so much of an issue.

My wild guess is that a backup dmid goes, and the fourth pure forward slot may get sacrificed for a real RM. Primarily because three mids will be going who can cover the off forward slot. I think Arena was really hoping Dempsey would be able to provide cover at dmid if necessary. And that is an option, particularly paired with Reyna or JOB.

[RSwenson]

It's amazing... a year ago I would have thought this spot would be a real strength of the US with a million options (Armas, Reyna, O'Brien, Mulrooney, Zavagnan, Mastro and probably a few I have forgotten)... it now seems that the depth chart might be pretty thin at this position... I wonder if Shalrie Joseph is kicking himself for 180 minutes of madness representing Granada in its WC qualifying campaign;-)

rand

[balatonsurfer]

2nd dmid...to protect a lead against Czech or Italy? Would you rather have Carroll, Zavagin, or...JayZ Demeritt?

[Dr.Phil]

Mastro is right behind Reyena

[DiscoWarrior11]

Mastro is right behind Reyena
Reyna and Mastroeni don't necessarily play the same position. Reyna is more of a holding midfielder, and Pablo is more of an out & out d-mid, a "destroyer" if you will.

If Arena stacked a 5-man midfield, you'd be likely to see the two of them close to side-by-side, but Reyna would be more in the attack as a holding mid-- the link between the forwards/attacking mids and the defense/d-mid.

[braun]

It's amazing... a year ago I would have thought this spot would be a real strength of the US with a million options (Armas, Reyna, O'Brien, Mulrooney, Zavagnan, Mastro and probably a few I have forgotten)... it now seems that the depth chart might be pretty thin at this position... I wonder if Shalrie Joseph is kicking himself for 180 minutes of madness representing Granada in its WC qualifying campaign;-)

rand

Agreed. Too bad that Shalrie was not noticed in Brooklyn or at St John's U!
What a perfect fit he'd been now.

[cpwilson80]

It's a tactical consideration. Do you bring a backup dmid, or a real RM, or a fourth pure forward, or a fifth CB, or...


... I think Arena was really hoping Dempsey would be able to provide cover at dmid if necessary. And that is an option, particularly paired with Reyna or JOB.

Good points. From the latest podcast, it sounds like Arena wants Dempsey to grow into a true 2-way midfielder (he mentioned Lampard as an example, which I think SuperDave and I discussed a few years ago!)

The challenge for Arena would be how to build around the central pairing if two of Reyna, O'Brien, and Mastroeni are out. Do you play Dempsey in the middle with one of these guys, and if so, how much responsiblity does he then have in attack and defense?

Right now, I think you have to get him in as many attacking opportunities as possible. If Reyna and O'Brien were out, I could see a switch to the diamond, with Donovan up top, Beasley providing the width on the left, Mastroeni in the middle, and Dempsey as the other "central" mid who's slightly out to the right. This of course means we need the width from the right back, something I'm confident either Cherundolo or Hejduk could provide.

[ursula]

Kerry is going to be in there right until the end, when we’re looking to finalize our roster.”

That last part really stood out for me as I take it to imply the injury situation with Mastro, Reyna, and JOB. So let's play a game. First off here are the probable first seven of eight choices for the midfield in an ideal situation where no one is injured:

Donovan, Beasley, Convey, Mastroeni, Reyna, JOB, Dempsey

Now here is the alternates pool, the list of guys from whom 1) the eighth spot will be filled and 2) will make the team if injuries do occur:

Zavagnin, Ralston, Noonan, Olsen, Klein, Carroll, Quaranta, Martino, maybe Rolfe.

(Complicating this is Lewis who we can slot in as a defender but would become a mid if injuries occurred to Beasley and Convey. Let's not think of that now.)

I have the list of alternates above in a certain order because I believe that the first named guys have the inside track on the eighth spot. (Zavagnin, Ralston, Noonan) However it's more complicated than that since Ralston is a right winger and Zavagnin is a d-mid, etc.

Dempsey's development as a right winger makes Ralston more expendable but right now I think it's impossible to tell which way Arena might go for the last spot if there are no injuries and even if there are injuries to the top seven.

For instance, say JOB is hurt come WC time. (I know, a wild implausibility but there you are. :)) He plays d-mid, a-mid, left wing, left back in emergencies. I'd say then that Zavagnin chances to make the team become over 90% and Olsen's chances become very very good. (Remember an injury to the top seven makes for two openings.)

A Reyna injury raises Ralston's chances a lot, and Zavagnin's chances a little.

A Mastroeni injury makes Zavagnin a lock and Olsen's chances way over 50%.

I have no idea what affects Noonan's chances because I have no idea if Arena thinks Noonan is a help at right wing (probably) or a-mid (doubtful.)

One final thing, a word of caution. We've seen who the players are in the winter break. But some players round into form faster. So when MLS play starts we may see some of the guys lower in the pecking order make some moves up the chart, at least a little.

[rgli13]

the reason many dont see a need for a second d-mid with reyna and job in the squad isnt that one of them will play d-mid, its that with both of them we can actually hold possesion.

against strong international sides we cant possess the ball without one or both of them in the middle for us. landon is adequete there- but a d-mid is a must in those cases.

when we have those guys we dont have to play to win the ball back because we can play to hold the ball.

but having donovan, reyna, and job ready to go when the time comes is a big "if", so this is definitely a valid question, and i imagine bruce will err on the side of caution and take someone else that can play that spot in addition to pablo- which is why i think olsen is getting so many looks, btw. you dont want to use a roster spot on a "just in case" guy, so anyone we can find who can fill in there AND possibley chip in at other spots is more desirable than a marginally better "pure" d-mid such as zavagnin.

[Autogolazo]

Right, even this thread has drifted back to the fuzzy logic of Reyna/JOB somehow covering for Pablo, which is what I don't believe will happen in Bruce's mind.

Against all but the weakest of competition where we know we'll have possession (like I said, T&T at Hartford), the destroyer d-mid is a fixed entity in the Arena scheme of play.

The point of the destroyer d-mid is to protect the backline from attacking a-mids and bust up the passing lanes, not hold leads. One would think we might need a destroyer against the likes of Nedved and Totti, no?

Clearly Bruce thinks Zavagnin is seriously back on the radar to back up Pablo in the destroyer role.

I guess I'm trying to say that, given Pablo's tendency toward injury and the fact that d-mids are card magnets, I think Bruce WILL take a backup destroyer d-mid, whether that's Zavagnin or Olsen or Carroll.

But this is clearly still a minority opinion around here.

[Matrim55]

I believe a true backup d-mid will make the squad because 1) we play better with a true d-mid, 2) Mastroeni is injury prone, and 3) Mastroeni is card-prone and will miss time because of card accumulation.

[rgli13]

i guess that i see it as exactly the opposite of that- playing against lower level teams we can get away with landon as our primary midfielder, with a d-mid cleaning up the possesion loss that (without fail) plagues us. we can get by against those teams in spite of our lack of possesion.

against top teams we have to hold the ball- not rely on winning it back. id rather roll the dice with reyna and job keeping the ball for us than donovan giving it up and waiting for pablo to win it back.

totti and essien and those guys are going to do what they do, id rather give them less time to do it than figuring out whos going to do the best at stopping them from doing it.

[Chowderhead]

And we have to ask: Will we be playing box or diamond? Having Dempsey out there will allow us to shift from one to the other. And I can't see Reyna being left alone in a diamond. As such, I don't see him starting.

A true d-mid backup will make the squad, indeed.

[CbR]

just the thought of haveing olsen,carrol or zavaghnin lace up their boots against the teams in our group gets me sick.

[Matrim55]

i guess that i see it as exactly the opposite of that- playing against lower level teams we can get away with landon as our primary midfielder, with a d-mid cleaning up the possesion loss that (without fail) plagues us. we can get by against those teams in spite of our lack of possesion.

against top teams we have to hold the ball- not rely on winning it back. id rather roll the dice with reyna and job keeping the ball for us than donovan giving it up and waiting for pablo to win it back.
While that is nice in theory, in practice it has literally never worked for the US national team. South Korea and Poland absolutely destroyed us in the midfield in 2002, and Panama (!!!) made us look ridiculous in the prelims in this past WCQ cycle.

[m vann]

Since the topic of Jay DeMerit has come to the forefront about his inclusion in the squad, I would like to throw his name in the ring. He's listed as a CB at Watford, but he lined up twice as a D-Mid and once as a striker in a cruch and was praised everytime. He even scored being a striker. If he has the skills to defender, has balls skills both holding and distributing, he might be a candidate. His play this season, especially recently has been noted and he at least deserves a look. With his rags to riches stroy anything is possible and our depth a CB could work for him if Bruce tried him as a D-Mid.

[Adam Zebrowski]

the big issue is whether arena goes with a back-up d-mid or decides to tactically adjust with o'brien or reyna is mastroeni gets carded or injured...

assuming 8 mids...

mastroeni
reyna
beasley
donovan
convey
o'brien
dempsey

are 7 guys in the lead now...

so is it a pure right mid or a back-up d-mid....

ralston or zavagnin???

that's why bruce gets payed the big bucks

[Martin Fischer]

Since the topic of Jay DeMerit has come to the forefront about his inclusion in the squad, I would like to throw his name in the ring. He's listed as a CB at Watford, but he lined up twice as a D-Mid and once as a striker in a cruch and was praised everytime. He even scored being a striker. If he has the skills to defender, has balls skills both holding and distributing, he might be a candidate. His play this season, especially recently has been noted and he at least deserves a look. With his rags to riches stroy anything is possible and our depth a CB could work for him if Bruce tried him as a D-Mid.

Why in the world would the USMNT, a team that hopes to be a WC quarterfinalist again, think it could strengthen itself by putting a 2nd-level defender (and one not renowned for his ball skills) in the midfield at the international level. We want to put more skill on the field and one way you do that is by moving club players to more defensive positions than they play at the club level, not by doing the opposite. I have only seen Demerit play once but the idea of him doing the things Zavagin does is silly.