mind numbing masses

[olckicker]

Democracy depends on the masses' ability to elect the right people to deal with their societies' problems. But, all too often, the masses elect the wrong people because they have nice looks, have nice personalities, have slick commercials, have sound bites that give easy answers to complex issues. Meanwhile, younger generations are being converted into technically proficient automatons so they can buy fast foods and fast cars.

What's the solution? We need to start with education. Besides practical skills, humans must be trained to think critically and creatively about themselves and their world. The must become citizens instead of consumers. Otherwise the only possible solution is a benevolent dictatorship.

[spejic]

I think education is a poor way to develop a good version of democracy. But a problem with benevolent dictatorships is that they also have too short a range in their planing, and the power tends to corrupt the person in charge.

The best form of government is a system of rules which are changed and interpreted by an elite. The elite are chosen by a round-robin professional wrestling competition.

[eneste]

It's just the natural order of things. When you are on top you get comfortable and less aware. Happened to the Romans right? It's on it's way to happening to us.

[ONE]

its not happening to me...ive decided to be an ostrogoth instead.

[GringoTex]

Originally posted by olckicker

What's the solution? We need to start with education. Besides practical skills, humans must be trained to think critically and creatively about themselves and their world. The must become citizens instead of consumers. Otherwise the only possible solution is a benevolent dictatorship.

Does anybody wonder why Republicans love standardized testing?

[eneste]

Originally posted by olckicker
Besides practical skills, humans must be trained to think critically and creatively about themselves and their world. The must become citizens instead of consumers.

Have you seen all the TGIFriday's popping up lately?

[Daksims]

Originally posted by GringoTex
Does anybody wonder why Republicans love standardized testing?

To make sure students are getting the essentials needed to think critically and creatively about themselves and their world - like reading, writing, and 'rithmetic. You need to learn to think before you can.

[Daksims]

Does anybody wonder why liberals are so deathly afraid of vouchers? I'll answer. They know if they lose control of the minds and let people think on their own, everybody would become conservative. :) Public schools are one of the downfalls of this country. I speak as a survivor (graduate) of one. I also spent many of my years as a student at a private school. I personally believe the best way to raise your kids is to homeschool.

[empennage]

Originally posted by Daksims
I personally believe the best way to raise your kids is to homeschool.
This is wrong. There is so much more to school then just learning the curriculum. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the most important skill learned at school is learning to deal with social situations. IMHO kids that are homeschooled don't develop the skills necessary to be successful in life.

[CFnwside]

Originally posted by Daksims
I personally believe the best way to raise your kids is to homeschool. yes, and in order to really prepare them for the complexity of life, they should be kept in the basement until they turn 25.

[CrewDust]

The Founding Fathers were right about the masses. They could not be trusted to make the important decsions like who should be the president. I believe that Florida 2000 proved them right.

[joseph pakovits]

Originally posted by CrewDust
The Founding Fathers were right about the masses. They could not be trusted to make the important decsions like who should be the president. I believe that Florida 2000 proved them right.

All that proved is that you can't trust a candidate's governor brother to hold a clean election.

If you're so contemptuous of "the masses" (of which you are one, unless you're a Fortune 500 CEO) why don't you go to Myanmar, Libya, Saudi Arabia or somewhere else where they think like you do?

[joseph pakovits]

Originally posted by Daksims
Does anybody wonder why liberals are so deathly afraid of vouchers? Blah blah blah. I personally believe the best way to raise your kids is to homeschool.

Does anybody wonder why reactionaires and religious fundamentalists are creaming themselves over the prospect of vouchers? I'll tell you. Because then the rich ones can get even more wealthfare from the public trough and the religious whackos, militia members and racists can remove their kids completely from society so they can be better brainwashed without the interference from superior competing views and contamination from people of differing ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds that might actually make their kids start to question what they are taught and think for themselves about things instead of just swallowing Mom & Dad's (or their private school ideological proxy's) propaganda.

[Dante]

Originally posted by joseph pakovits
All that proved is that you can't trust a candidate's governor brother to hold a clean election.

Oh please, Jeb Bush had nothing to do with getting his brother elected. The fault lies solely with the idiotic voters who can't figure out the ballot, a ballot that was approved by a Democrat. If there's anyone to blame, blame the voters and the local Board of Elections who approved the ballots, not Jeb Bush.

They had been using the ballots when Clinton won his re-election, what was so hard this time?

[Colin Grabow]

Originally posted by joseph pakovits


Does anybody wonder why reactionaires and religious fundamentalists are creaming themselves over the prospect of vouchers? I'll tell you. Because then the rich ones can get even more wealthfare from the public trough and the religious whackos, militia members and racists can remove their kids completely from society so they can be better brainwashed without the interference from superior competing views and contamination from people of differing ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds that might actually make their kids start to question what they are taught and think for themselves about things instead of just swallowing Mom & Dad's (or their private school ideological proxy's) propaganda.

Interesting theory, but it really doesn't square with the fact that vouchers as currently implemented -- such as in Milwaukee and Cleveland -- only apply to poor children who already attend public schools that are deemed to be "failing." Those children also happen to be heavily minority, which actually means more minority students attending private schools.

[krolpolski]

Originally posted by Dante


Oh please, Jeb Bush had nothing to do with getting his brother elected. The fault lies solely with the idiotic voters who can't figure out the ballot, a ballot that was approved by a Democrat. If there's anyone to blame, blame the voters and the local Board of Elections who approved the ballots, not Jeb Bush.

They had been using the ballots when Clinton won his re-election, what was so hard this time?

Considering that 57,000 legal voters were eliminated from the voter rolls prior to the election -- most of them African-Americans who would tend to vote Democratic -- by Katherine Harris (Bush's Florida Campaign co-chair and Florida Secretary of State), the small number of voters who couldn't vote correctly really wouldn't make that much of a difference.

For more details go to http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1

[obie]

Originally posted by Colin Grabow


Interesting theory, but it really doesn't square with the fact that vouchers as currently implemented -- such as in Milwaukee and Cleveland -- only apply to poor children who already attend public schools that are deemed to be "failing." Those children also happen to be heavily minority, which actually means more minority students attending private schools. ... Except that these programs are "pilot programs" that are expected to expand dramatically now that vouchers have been sanctioned by the Supremes.

There are two major groups of parents who are pro-voucher: (primarily non-white, primarily Democratic) poor inner-city parents, and (primarily white, primarily conservative) middle- to upper-class religious parents. Everyone seems to agree that the inner-city parents will be the major beneficiaries of vouchers short-term, but what happens if you tell the white suburban parents who are already sending their kids to parochial school AND paying local school taxes that they're not eligible for a voucher? They will raise hell, and eventually the states & cities will cave on this issue and give vouchers to everyone who asks for one, or distribute them solely through a lottery.

What happens next is where it gets interesting. Surely there will be a lot more kids moving into private schools, which will in the short-term lead to some selectivity on the part of the schools and could lead to some children being turned away even though they've got a voucher. Then you've probably got some race-related lawsuits that will pit the two pro-voucher groups against each other. It's not far-fetched to see this get really ugly really, really quickly.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that a few really uppity schools will likely refuse to take any kid with a voucher, even those whose parents have the money make up the difference, because acceptance of vouchers = acceptance of public funding, which will open them up to a whole host of antidiscrimination laws. So the barriers to the top private schools will likely remain up, even with free money available.

[Dante]

This is in reference to the post above Obie's....

Have you read the guys other stuff? Check out the Guerilla News Network. He's done interviews there.

He was complaining that improper votes were not counted, I don't see where he's argument is legit. He points out that some ballots had a mark near Al Gore's name when there should have been a hole punch. It's not our fault that people are too stupid not to punch a hole in a punch card.

The U.S. Civil Rights Commission stated that there was no conclusive evidence that there was any intentional disenfranchising of black voters.

Why wasn't there the same amount of moaning when it happened in '98 and votes weren't counted for the same reason???

The New York Times felt that the election ended failry http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/recount/12VOTE.html

[Colin Grabow]

Originally posted by obie
... Except that these programs are "pilot programs" that are expected to expand dramatically now that vouchers have been sanctioned by the Supremes.

There are two major groups of parents who are pro-voucher: (primarily non-white, primarily Democratic) poor inner-city parents, and (primarily white, primarily conservative) middle- to upper-class religious parents. Everyone seems to agree that the inner-city parents will be the major beneficiaries of vouchers short-term, but what happens if you tell the white suburban parents who are already sending their kids to parochial school AND paying local school taxes that they're not eligible for a voucher? They will raise hell, and eventually the states & cities will cave on this issue and give vouchers to everyone who asks for one, or distribute them solely through a lottery.

What happens next is where it gets interesting. Surely there will be a lot more kids moving into private schools, which will in the short-term lead to some selectivity on the part of the schools and could lead to some children being turned away even though they've got a voucher. Then you've probably got some race-related lawsuits that will pit the two pro-voucher groups against each other. It's not far-fetched to see this get really ugly really, really quickly.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that a few really uppity schools will likely refuse to take any kid with a voucher, even those whose parents have the money make up the difference, because acceptance of vouchers = acceptance of public funding, which will open them up to a whole host of antidiscrimination laws. So the barriers to the top private schools will likely remain up, even with free money available.

Well, that's a lot of speculation on your part, and how it all plays out remains to be seen. The reality however remains that vouchers as currently implemented have not resulted in the wealthy clamoring for inclusion.

Vermont and Maine have both had limited voucher programs in place for over 100 years without this occuring.

[obie]

Originally posted by Colin Grabow


Well, that's a lot of speculation on your part, and how it all plays out remains to be seen. The reality however remains that vouchers as currently implemented have not resulted in the wealthy clamoring for inclusion. But they're still only pilot programs. The concept of the pilot programs were to try to build something that they will eventually be able to expand. Even you must admit that advocates want to dramatically expand these programs, which will likely radically shift the demographics of voucher recipients. And, can you also agree that the primary (not only, but #1) reason why conservative Christians supported vouchers is for personal relief from their double burden of parochial school tuition plus public school taxes?

Now that these two disparate groups (poor city families and Christian suburbanites) have the clearance to build a big voucher program, their previous singular goal of government approval will fragment into the very different goals of (a) school choice for the inner-city parents, and (b) tax relief for the suburban parents. I'm not even going to say that it could be difficult; it will be ugly.

Vermont and Maine have both had limited voucher programs in place for over 100 years without this occuring. I don't know about these programs, but VT and ME are two of the whitest, most economically homogeneous states in the country. The battle will come when money has to be doled out between inner-city kids and suburban kids.