MLB, Portland Timbers, and MLS

[myshap]

Seems Portland is in the running to get the Expos. Portland, Northern VA, and DC Want Montreal Expos (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030128/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_expos_sale_6) Would getting the Expos, make it eaiser for Portland to get a MLS team?

I think it would. First the Portland Beavers would have to leave because you don't need a minor league baseball team when there is a MLB team in town. Also, the article makes it clear that a new stadium would have to be built for the city to get the Expos. That leaves PGE Park, a 19,566 seat stadium, to the Portland Timbers and soccer. It's a wonderful stadium already with a roof, but add stands to the other goal end and a stadium club, then on the third base side where there are no stands you could add luxury boxes and a new press box. It would look like a smaller version of Baca Juniors' La Bombonera. It would be the best looking Soccer Stadium in the US. Here are some pictures of PGE Park Fraiser's Pictures:Portland Timbers vs. El Paso Patriots (http://pictures.speirs.org/timbers)

Of Course, this is assuming that the Baseball team dosen't renovate the stadium and add stands on the thrid base side and in outfield. It would be cheaper for them to do that, but the article makes it seem that MLB wants them to build a new place for the Expos.

[Timbers_Roberto]

If, and this is a BIG if, Portland lands a MLB team then the plan is for the Expos to play in PGE Park in 2004 while a new baseball only stadium is built. There is no talk of changing PGE Park into a major league facility because it couldn't be done. The city already spent $30 million to renovate it for the minor league Beavers and the Timbers. In the process it signed a terrible agreement with the current owners PFE which in the process is being forced to sell both teams because it owes its creditors more than $500,000. Confusing isn't it?

The fact is that there is NO talk of bringing MLS to Portland at this time other than from a few die hard Timbers fans. To complicate matters, Portland State University plays its pointyball games at PGE Park so converting it to a soccer only facility would be tough. I agree that it could easily be made into one of the best facilities in the country but at the moment that seems highly unlikely given the political and economic situations in Oregon.

[Richter Boy]

Originally posted by myshap
Seems Portland is in the running to get the Expos. Portland, Northern VA, and DC Want Montreal Expos (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030128/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_expos_sale_6) Would getting the Expos, make it eaiser for Portland to get a MLS team?

I think it would. First the Portland Beavers would have to leave because you don't need a minor league baseball team when there is a MLB team in town. Also, the article makes it clear that a new stadium would have to be built for the city to get the Expos. That leaves PGE Park, a 19,566 seat stadium, to the Portland Timbers and soccer. It's a wonderful stadium already with a roof, but add stands to the other goal end and a stadium club, then on the third base side where there are no stands you could add luxury boxes and a new press box. It would look like a smaller version of Baca Juniors' La Bombonera. It would be the best looking Soccer Stadium in the US. Here are some pictures of PGE Park Fraiser's Pictures:Portland Timbers vs. El Paso Patriots (http://pictures.speirs.org/timbers)

Of Course, this is assuming that the Baseball team dosen't renovate the stadium and add stands on the thrid base side and in outfield. It would be cheaper for them to do that, but the article makes it seem that MLB wants them to build a new place for the Expos.

I live in Portland, and I want some of what you are smoking.

[Timbersdrumman]

Originally posted by Richter Boy
I live in Portland, and I want some of what you are smoking. I hate to bust your MLS bubble but I agree with Richter Boy! Sounds like good stuff you have.

[myshap]

What aren't you seeing? That Portland could get an MLS team or that PGE Park could be renovated to make a very nice Soccer Stadium?

I can't say anything about the first one. I don't know a lot about Portland or how they support soccer there. Now the second, I've never been to Portland or seen the stadium first hand, but by the pictures PGE Park looks like a nice stadium. With about 10-12M someone could definetly make that a great soccer stadium.

[Timbersdrumman]

Originally posted by myshap
What aren't you seeing? That Portland could get an MLS team or that PGE Park could be renovated to make a very nice Soccer Stadium?

I can't say anything about the first one. I don't know a lot about Portland or how they support soccer there. Now the second, I've never been to Portland or seen the stadium first hand, but by the pictures PGE Park looks like a nice stadium. With about 10-12M someone could definetly make that a great soccer stadium. As Timber Roberto pointed out PGE Park is shared by the local College football team and other high school teams. The city is trying to get their money back that they spent remodling the Park. The current management is in debt over their eyeballs to the city and will be forced out. The economic situation in Portland sucks right now and you are talking about making it into a Soccer facility if MLB comes to town?
What really makes you think that people in Portland who just voted down a tax measure for the umteenth time will vote in a tax to build a stadium to get the Expos in town. I have lived in Portland for 40 years and the people who live here are not that stupid to do that. We have way more important things like our schools to take care of before we get a MLB team here. So your MLS pipe dream will not happen here for a very, very ,very, long, long, long time. Can the PGE PARK be turned into a soccer stadium YES! But it will not happen.

[Richter Boy]

As someone else said, the city just spent 30 million to renovate PGE. There is no way that another 10 million will be shelled out any year soon.

[timbergreg]

Yeah, as much as I would like to have an MLS team here in Portland, it's just not going to happen for a while. The state is depressed right now and further renovation on the stadium isn't going to happen. Civic (nee, PGE) Park is a terrific old school stadium (it was built around 1926) with a great atmosphere and look but there isn't any more money locally to further add to it. I'd love for baseball to go somewhere else and I'd love it if it could be a soccer-specific stadium but it won't happen anytime soon. It's a multi use stadium as there aren't any other stadia around here. College football (Div I-AA) and urban high schools need the place too. We love our Timbers and have been second in the A-League in attendance two years in a row. We also draw well for the occasional international friendly that comes thru town and drew well for the WUSA All Star game last summer (and we don't even have a team in that league) and I think we would draw very well for the MLS but that's just going to have to wait. Support for soccer exists here but there isn't any money to back it up. We'll make do with the barn-storming A League for awhile longer...
Any millionaires out there want to finance a team and a new stadium in Portland? Please call Mayor Vera Katz at 823-4120.
NOTE FOR EXPOS: stay the hell away from our dwindelling education fund! tax the players' salaries to fund your baseball stadium!

[myshap]

Originally Posted By:timbergreg
Any millionaires out there want to finance a team and a new stadium in Portland? Please call Mayor Vera Katz at 823-4120.
NOTE FOR EXPOS: stay the hell away from our dwindelling education fund! tax the players' salaries to fund your baseball stadium!

Isn't that what the article said the state was going to do? The state wants a special income tax on players salaries to fund the stadium. Although I doubt the players union would go for it.

About the renovations. I was thinking that who ever was the I/O could pay for the renovations. Like Horowitz did with Lockhart in Miami. As for Football games, the field for soccer is much wider then for Football and there is no reason the Football couldn't be played on the field. They do that at CCS. It's a pipe dream, (some say bong dream) but it is interesting to think of. The setup could look something like this:

http://www.geocities.com/rrovick/pge.html

[Timbersdrumman]

Originally posted by myshap
Isn't that what the article said the state was going to do? The state wants a special income tax on players salaries to fund the stadium. Although I doubt the players union would go for it.


Once the players union puts an end to the income tax on players they will hit the tax payers for the money. It will be defeated and the coversion of PGE Park (which is a good idea) will not come about. One thing you have to realize is the state of soccer here in America is still on shakey ground and that will only change when soccer can grab money away from all the other sports.
So you better wish for one of these leagues to fold: the NBA, NHL, MLB or NFL. Then maybe we will finnally get the money and fans we need for pro soccer in America.
What does it tell you when two star players in the A-League leave the game to another feild of work to make more money? Do you really think this speaks well for soccer here in the States?

[Baracuda]

Hey Drumman, I'm not following ya! The tax on the players salary is not a new tax. It's the state income taxes that the players would have pay if they came to Portland, and not a new tax on players salaries, even on the visiting players who pay taxes even for road games.
The reason this makes so much sense (to people who support the MLB to Portland movement) is because the money used by the players state income taxes would not exsist if they don't come to Portland. Once the players taxes pay back the bond on the stadium, there state income taxes would then be diverted to the general fund which can be used for schools! this kind of bond cannot be used for schools. This is a good deal all around.
Go to oregonbaseballcampaign.com and read the last bill yourself. I'm sure the next one may be tinkered with in the new legislative session. See ya at the Bitter End

[Timbers_Roberto]

Taxing the visiting player's salaries to pay for a stadium sounds like a good deal but I predict it won't happen. The player's union has to approve the deal. There are also some states like California that have existing agreements with the state of Oregon to exempt their players for taxation.

I don't understand why baseball and sports owners shouldn't be forced to build their own stadiums anyway. They should be treated like any other business, especially since their value to a city's economy has been shown to be very small compared to a business that actually creates real wage jobs.

The fact is that Portland and Oregon should be trying to solve their own problems and not be wasting energy on a baseball team that will be little more than a small market franchise with little corporate support.

[Baracuda]

I don't understand where the players union comes into play. If a team comes to Portland the players would have to pay state income taxes, and some/most of the visiting players would have to pay Oregon state income taxes. All the baseball bill does, is make it possible/legal to divert the state income taxes the players would have to pay towards paying off the stadium constrution bond.
The MLB players union can vote all they want but they would still have to pay state income taxes in Oregon. I'm sure they pay higher taxes in Canada anyway.
We can arm wrestle over this at the nest Timbers Army meeting if you want, and then you can kick my ass at foosball.

[Paul Schmidt]

Washingtonians (right across the river) who work in Oregon pay Oregon income tax. The reciprocation agreement with California is about to end, and won't be renewed (it's benefitting Oregon much more than it is California). Therefore, this is not a SPECIAL tax on players, therefore they have no ground to stand on regarding any possible protest. In other cases, their grounds for protesting a particular tax would be that it was specifically targeted to MLB players, which is not the case under this proposal. The MLBPA won't go after this tax; it's not their policy to work that way, at least not now.

The real questions: will the tax generate enough revenue, given the level of payroll with the Montreal Expos, or Tampa Bay, or Miami? The contract with the state would provide that the team would have to cover stadium cost overruns; will possible team investors buy into that? The proponents are strenuously against a retractable roof, and there's solid data to back up that stance, but does the perception among potential ticket buyers outweigh the reality? Will the state even address the issue in time to have an effect on the MLB decision?

[Timbers_Roberto]

If nothing else the current mess at PFE has taught me to be cynical about deals that sound too good to be true.

I don't see how the numbers add up. Let's say you have an average salaried team with an $80 million payroll. The top income rate in Oregon is around 10%. That is $8 million a year plus another $8 million from opposing salaries. So it would take 20 years to pay off a conservatively low $320 million stadium. What happens if in those two decades baseball is a failure in Portland? Who pays the bills when the team moves? Why hasn't this kind of plan been done in other cities and in other sports? Why couldn't the city use the proposed stadium sites to lure new businesses that will generate new taxes and real wage jobs?

All questions that need to be answered to sway the many cynics in the state.

[Baracuda]

The Baseball bill calls for $150 million in bonds to be repayed from the taxes from the players salarys. The rest of the money would be raised from ticket surcharges, user fees, hotel taxes, car rental taxes, urban renewal funds already in place (near post office) well as a land donation from the city. Most of the funds for the stadim will come from players salaries, tourists and people who go to the games.
The portland public school building as well as the Post office and bus station are the tops sites being considered for the proposed stadium. Building a stadium on the Portland public Schools building seems like a PR disasters waiting to happen, but from what I've heard they need to move anyway because the building is too big.
The team would have to sign a 30 year lease and also agree to pay any stadium cost over runs.
The reason this hasn't been done before is that most states don't have a state income tax, but rather a sales tax. And raising a sales tax too pay for a stadium is a hard to impossible sell. Having an income tax instead makes this possible.
As for the real wage jobs. There is alot of land around hte city that can be developed for real wage jobs. This project won't create a ton of real wage jobs, at least not enough to justify this project for that purpose. This is about bringing a baseball team to Oregon. This will help a lot of businesses around the city and have economic repercussions for years to come. If the city ends up with a baseball team by taxing tourists and baseball players then it's a no brainer and definitely worth it!

[myshap]

Originally posted by Baracuda
The reason this hasn't been done before is that most states don't have a state income tax, but rather a sales tax. And raising a sales tax too pay for a stadium is a hard to impossible sell. Having an income tax instead makes this possible.
As for the real wage jobs. There is alot of land around hte city that can be developed for real wage jobs. This project won't create a ton of real wage jobs, at least not enough to justify this project for that purpose. This is about bringing a baseball team to Oregon. This will help a lot of businesses around the city and have economic repercussions for years to come. If the city ends up with a baseball team by taxing tourists and baseball players then it's a no brainer and definitely worth it!

First off, There are only nine states that don't have a "I work, so penalize me for it tax," other wise known as the Income tax. Second, raising sales taxes has been the principal way to raise funds for public works like stadiums. Cincinnati's Paul Brown Stadium and the Reds Stadium and Seattle's Infesco and Safeco stadiums to name a few.

I'm guessing "Real Wage Jobs" means over 30K a year. Which a stadium does provide for over 300 workers. The stories of concession stand workers and janitors only making min wage are mostly false in a Major League stadium. All Major League stadiums must use union workers(people that have to pay 20% of their salary for the right to work, but none the less initially get paid well before taxes and dues take it all). They may not make all the salary from the stadium as they are sent to other arenas by the company, but they make about 30 to 35K a year. Not to mention the 400 to 500 construction workers who make around 50K while building the stadium and the lucky local lawn care company(if they don't go artificial) who stands to make around 200K a year off the stadium. Then their is the huge property tax a stadium has to pay because it takes up almost two city blocks. I don't know what the buisness property tax is there, but if it is anything like what is in Cincinnati it is close to a million. Major Leage stadiums can really be huge for a community.

[Timbers_Roberto]

Originally posted by myshap
Major Leage stadiums can really be huge for a community.

Actually if you read the analysis from economists, major league stadiums regardless of the sport add very little to a local economy. The jobs, despite your claim of over 30k to sell peanuts, are for the most part low wage seasonal employment. My friend sells beer at Blazers games and makes $7.25/hour. He isn't part of a union and receives no benefits.

Most cities give sports franchises huge tax breaks to stay or relocate and collect next to nothing in terms of property taxes. Essentially cities bend over backwards to accomodate sports franchises and the owners do all they can to have their businesses subsidized by the tax payers.

The one economic argument I do buy is that if done right a stadium can attract people downtown and help out small businesses like restaurants and bars. Whether or not this generates enough to make it worthwhile is questionable in my mind.

[Paul Schmidt]

The "economic redistribution" argument has a good deal of merit... and that's the point!

Of course, the point is better made by Metro (Portland-area regional government) funding a stadium instead of the state, because there's enough of a state to be interested in MLB that it redirects money towards the underserved central core of Portland.

It also very likely redirects money from all the strip clubs in Portland. I have nothing against naked women, I'm limited by marriage now, but I knew before that moment in my life that there were too many such establishments in town. Economic redistribution is sometimes a WISE concept.

Again, all that being said, this go-around looks like it won't get there. All they're doing is laying the ground work so that MLS fans can walk all over the effort and come in with a more economically feasible proposal, right? ;)

[Baracuda]

I believe the baseball bill states that the stadium would be exempt from property taxes.