The grudge match is on

[anderson]

Originally posted by dark knight
I don't think you can compare Portuguese living in Portugal with immigrants to America, who often face a struggle to make it. Or at least I made the mistake of thinking, before I went to Japan, that all Japanese were like the Japanese Americans that I grew up with. They aren't.Fer sure. And by the time you get to second and third generation folks (as in the long-established Portuguese community in New England), you're probably encountering people who have assimilated the local norms and values rather thoroughly.

I've met Portuguese immigrants in New England and Brazil. The New England Portuguese are mostly as dour and work-obsessed as you'd expect from New Englanders. The Brazilian Portuguese (such as my ancestors) have mostly adopted traditional Brazilian attitudes and norms about socializing and work and so forth.

[Chowderhead]

Originally posted by anderson
Fer sure. And by the time you get to second and third generation folks (as in the long-established Portuguese community in New England), you're probably encountering people who have assimilated the local norms and values rather thoroughly.

I've met Portuguese immigrants in New England and Brazil. The New England Portuguese are mostly as dour and work-obsessed as you'd expect from New Englanders. The Brazilian Portuguese (such as my ancestors) have mostly adopted traditional Brazilian attitudes and norms about socializing and work and so forth.

Interesting, Anderson. Also, New England Portuguese tend to be from the Azores. Venzezuelan Portuguse tend to come from Madeira. I know that the Rio Grande do Sul Portuguese are Azorean, as well. Are the Rio Portuguese from Lisbon and the continent? I know that they founded the Vasco Da Gama club.

[anderson]

Originally posted by Chowderhead
Interesting, Anderson. Also, New England Portuguese tend to be from the Azores. Venzezuelan Portuguse tend to come from Madeira. I know that the Rio Grande do Sul Portuguese are Azorean, as well. Are the Rio Portuguese from Lisbon and the continent? I know that they founded the Vasco Da Gama club.My understanding is that about 85% of emigrants from continental Portugal went to Brazil. I’ve been told that only around 15% of the Azorean emigrants went to Brazil, with over 80% to North America. About half of the Madeirans went to Brazil. That's all I've got in the way of reasonable data, but it's probably a safe bet that most Portuguese immigrants in Brazil (other than in RS), both currently and historically, came from the continent.

During a 300-year period from the sixteenth century to 1822 (Brazilian independence), the Portuguese were the only Europeans who immigranted to Brazil in meaningful numbers. They settled in all regions, both urban and rural areas, and came from all social classes. Following independence, but mostly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, another 1.6 million Portuguese settled in Brazil. The other large, post-independence immigrant communities (Italians, Germans, Japanese, Lebanese) congregated in very specific areas, but the Portuguese continued to settle throughout the country and integrated easily.

The Brazilian gov’t estimates that there are now appx 277,000 Portuguese citizens resident in Brazil, but that estimate excludes those who are naturalized Brazilian citizens and anyone over 60. The Portuguese gov’t estimates that there are about 1 million Portuguese in Brazil when you also include the naturalized and elderly populations.

Unfortunately, most Brazilians have very little knowledge about Portugal. If you ask most Brazilians of Portuguese descent what part of Portugal their ancestors came from, they’ll probably look at you quizzically.

The exceptions are people descended from the Azoreans in RS. Many people know that Porto Alegre, the capital of RS, and other major towns in the state, were founded by Azoreans. But those communities were founded in the late 18th century, whereas, by comparison, Sao Paulo was founded in the 1550s, Rio in the 1560s, and Salvador da Bahia in the 1540s.

And oh yeah, futebol. You’re also right about Vasco. There are three clubs in Brazil historically identified with the Portuguese - Vasco da Gama in Rio, Portuguesa (often referred to as “Lusa”) in the city of SP, and Portuguesa Santista in the city of Santos (lopsided derby with Pele’s Santos FC).

Vasco has long outgrown its immigrant origins and is now a massive club with a national, multi-ethnic, multi-racial following. In 1923, it became the first big club in Brazil to allow Black players. Vasco was also by then a predominatly working class club, whereas the other big Rio clubs were trying to hang on to elitism. It was founded by immigrant Portuguese office clerks and such who didn’t have enough money to join the more prestigious clubs. Vasco’s stadium, the Sao Januario, was the largest stadium in Brazil when it was built in 1927.

Lusa is still very much identified with, and largely limited to, the Portuguese immigrant community in SP. The club has even considered changing its name to gain a broader appeal.

Portuguesa Santista is what it is and seems very content.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by Nutmeg
Self-castigating? Are you serious? That's pretty shocking. I remember a couple of weeks on a couple of different Portuguese beaches where the girls I met were let's say, different, than the type of people you describe here.


Proof that flanoverseas is Karl Keller.

I screwed up my original post - Wanderer was kind enough to fix it for me. You must not have visited the World Cup forums or Rivalries pre-Korea. Too bad, you missed a poster's entire career on BS wrapped up in a perpetual inflation of how badly the Golden Generation of Portugal was going to stomp on the piddly little US squad. Then, a mysterious disappearance.

The guy was so persistent he made Segrove's take on McBride look like a passing criticism. lol

oh...the poster...I thought you were...nevermind