These Churches Suck, or, if that offends, and not very Good

[oman]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060204/ap_on_re_us/mega_churches

With their huge services and the prayers and songs projected on the wall and the goldurn rock and roll, I can't think of anything more odious and sad than the two or three times I have gone to these things.

Makes you want to be monk. Revolting.

(And I say that without much intellectual rigor, because you don't pick a church by intellectual rigor. You pick it if it feels good and is not revolting.

[vivzig]

Some county outside of Richmond actually paid to change the road set up after a mega church moved in up the road north of town. 10k+ people driving on a two lane road on Sunday? Gridlock.

[dj43]

"These large churches have figured out how to address the needs of people in a relevant, engaging way that is actually making a difference in their lives," he said (Dave Travis of Leadership Network).

...and this is somehow a bad thing???

Coincidentally I found myself in So Cal this weekend and took advantage of that opportunity to attend the Saddleback Church (Pastored by Rick Warren, author of Purpose Driven Life) this evening. It IS big, it did project the speaker onto a video screen and it did have a band that sometimes sounded more like rock 'n roll than the old hymns my mother used to sing. But the people were very friendly, the message was particularly timely (How to survive in the land of BLING.) and visitors were asked NOT to drop money into the offering plate.

In addition, the offerings of many different counseling services and ministries covered just about every topic one could imagine from financial management to parenting issues to senior programs. So though I missed my much smaller home church, it is hard to argue with the fact that the larger facility can offer a lot more to a lot more people...and that is what Jesus asked us to do...take care of the needs of others.

[oman]

"These large churches have figured out how to address the needs of people in a relevant, engaging way that is actually making a difference in their lives," he said (Dave Travis of Leadership Network).

...and this is somehow a bad thing???

...and that is what Jesus asked us to do...take care of the needs of others.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with this question. Do you come to a point where you sy that "the needs of others" may perhaps be misplaced?

There are certain needs that one should not, I would say, try to meet. You wouldn't, for instance, attract people to church using methods that were unChristian.

Similarly, if the rise of mega Churches is really a reflection of the need for people to be entertained and ultimately does not promote Christian values, other than the value of getting a paying customer in the door, I am not sure it is a good thing.

At our church, the contemporary, video presentation seems to coincide with the slow death of the traditional service and a drop in participation in Sunday school.

[flowergirl]

I went to that big one in Houston, the one Joel Orstein preaches at. He was ok. good speaker. the whole church experience itself (for me, personally) was very offputting. very large, very impersonal. people were very disconnected from one another.
it was like going to a concert.

and i prefer my Jesus unplugged, if you know what i mean.

[dj43]

And I think you hit the nail on the head with this question. Do you come to a point where you sy that "the needs of others" may perhaps be misplaced?

There are certain needs that one should not, I would say, try to meet. You wouldn't, for instance, attract people to church using methods that were unChristian.

Similarly, if the rise of mega Churches is really a reflection of the need for people to be entertained and ultimately does not promote Christian values, other than the value of getting a paying customer in the door, I am not sure it is a good thing.

At our church, the contemporary, video presentation seems to coincide with the slow death of the traditional service and a drop in participation in Sunday school.
I do believe that "meeting the needs of others" must be judged on biblical basis. If that does not meet biblical standards then, "no" it is not a desirable goal.

However, large cities have large churches...and that is not a bad thing per se. The Bible says Jesus twice preached to large crowds. 4,000 one time and 5,000 men, PLUS women and children the other. Therefore if we are to judge by His standards, there is nothing wrong with size itself. In fact, in large cities, there will inevitably large churches if the message is correct at all.

Ultimately, people attend churches that give them something that will be useful to their lives. I read some months ago that the greatest growth in churches has been in those that require more fundamental committment, rather than less, from their members.

Frankly, I prefer the more intimate size of our local church rather than the experience I had last night at Saddleback, but the message was no less appropriate.

[dj43]

I went to that big one in Houston, the one Joel Orstein preaches at. He was ok. good speaker. the whole church experience itself (for me, personally) was very offputting. very large, very impersonal. people were very disconnected from one another.
it was like going to a concert.

and i prefer my Jesus unplugged, if you know what i mean.
I'm with you. I grew up with a small organ and old hymns. That was church for me.

Interestingly, the Saddleback church has 3 different venues on the same campus, in addition to the main sanctuary. All 3 have video screens of the sermon being presented live in the main sanctuary. However, the music in each one is different. While one has traditional music and gospel singing, another has contemporary and the third is rock 'n roll. Therefore, one can choose the venue based on their preference in musical style.

[flowergirl]

I'm with you. I grew up with a small organ and old hymns. That was church for me.

Interestingly, the Saddleback church has 3 different venues on the same campus, in addition to the main sanctuary. All 3 have video screens of the sermon being presented live in the main sanctuary. However, the music in each one is different. While one has traditional music and gospel singing, another has contemporary and the third is rock 'n roll. Therefore, one can choose the venue based on their preference in musical style.

i also don't want to watch my sermon on a video screen. i could stay home and do that. sing the songs that i like myself. :rolleyes:

[JBigjake]

I can't think of anything more odious and sad
Apparently 4.4 million people disagree with you.

[Henry Porter]

Megachurches are unChristian. Christ fought against the commercialization of faith that they promote.

"Jesus entered into the temple of God, and drove out all of those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers' tables and the seats of those who sold the doves. (WEB)"
Matthew 21:12

[dj43]

Megachurches are unChristian.
No they aren't. Did you overlook that Jesus preached to thousands at a time? Apparently it didn't bother Him.

[Henry Porter]

No they aren't. Did you overlook that Jesus preached to thousands at a time? Apparently it didn't bother Him.

I wasn't referring to the grouping of large people but the amount of $ that gets exchanged. I know of several megachurches that have small stores in them.

[Henry Porter]

What about coke machines? Does Jesus hate coke machines in the Temple?

What's wrong with water? Don't know if Jesus would want to be associated with coke (http://killercoke.org/) or pepsi (Jay Mohr??).

[Henry Porter]

Bitch™, I axed you a question. Answer it or stop posting.

What about coffee? Can a pot be brewing on the Sabbath or not?

You said nothing about coffee. You said coke. I even went the distance of mentioning another product. No fair in changing. And don't ask me to stop posting.

[Henry Porter]

Um, sorry. I refuse to converse with people that share views such as this:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7434188&postcount=8

[dj43]

I wasn't referring to the grouping of large people but the amount of $ that gets exchanged. I know of several megachurches that have small stores in them.
Does it not make sense that a church should provide a place for people to gather and fellowship apart from just sitting in the church for 2 hours a week on the weekend?

And if that time spent involves having something to eat, why not allow them the opportunity to buy food there?

Frequently people want to get together after the regular service, or have a place to hold meetings and minister to the needs of the community. It is sensible that the church have facilities to do this rather than having to rent something apart from the church.

Many churches have small bookstores that sell religious books. They operate on a non-profit basis and the members are able to buy the books at cheaper prices than at Borders...and more conveniently.

Jesus didn't drive sellers of food out of the temple. Or folks selling copies of The Law and the Prophets. He drove out the money lenders, if you recall correctly.

In today's world, real estate is VERY expensive, especially around metropolitan areas. As a result, it makes sense to make good use of that investment by using the facilities as often as possible apart from just weekly service. 15% of Christ's teachings involved stewardship and how we should deal with money. He was clear that we will be judged on how we manage what God has provided for us. Spending a lot of money on facilities that are used only once or twice a week doesn't sound like wise stewardship to me.

[Foosinho]

Anyway, are you going to tuck tail and run, John Henry? I thought you were born with a hammer right in your hand?
I can turn a jack, I can lay a track, I can pick and shovel too.

Anyway, I can't speak for others, but this is what I find odious about megachurches (emphasis mine):
The growth of megachurches in recent decades has come about because of a common historic cycle in U.S. religion: faith institutions reinventing themselves to meet the consumerlike demands of worshippers, said Paul Harvey, American history professor at the University of Colorado who specializes in U.S. religious history.
I realize my opinion as an atheist (non-practicing Catholic, if you ever meet my mother) probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans with you religious folk, but is commodifying religion to the point of it being a consumer product really something to encourage? *I* don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

When I was in high school, I worked late at a pizza shop on Saturday nights, often not getting in until 3 or 4 AM. My parents wouldn't make me get up to go to church with them, since our parish only had 1 Mass (very small community). However, they demanded that I attend Mass on Sundays, so I had to go to a noon service at a big high-turnover Catholic service. IMO, it sucked - big church, shoveled you in, fired thru the Mass quickly, and shoveled you out to make room for the next service. No real sense of community with the other people - I never saw the same person twice when I went. Contrast that with my parent's church, where you knew virtually everyone, you could walk right up to the priest after service to chat, and he'd know your name... that, to me, is what a church is supposed to be like.

I'm not saying you *can't* have a sense of community with larger churches. But how often does World Harvest (to pick on one of the local megachurches) have a community potluck picnic to celebrate the anniversary of it's founding?

[flowergirl]

perhaps that's what people want out of church now.

to not be involved. to get that general experience, but not have to do all the personal stuff. to say they go to this big huge church with all these people, but not really have to do anything to form a bond with any of them.

that way you don't feel as guilty when you're not living up to the standard. everyone in the little church on the corner knows if you're cheating on your wife. at the big church no one knows you from adam.

just a theory to throw out there.

[Yankee_Blue]

What about coke? What about Coffee? Why can't you answer?

What about orange juice? Huh? Can their even be a kitchen in the church?

C'mon John Henry, tell us what Jesus thinks.

What about a piano?

[royalstilton]

What about a piano?
---
my wife grew up attending The Church of Christ, that somehow has determined that musical instruments are to be excluded from worship services. they do use amplifiers, though, to make the speaker heard, so it's not about modern vs. ancient, apparently.

we attend what amounts to a contemporary Southern California church of moderate size, around 600 attendees, 200 first service and 400 second. there is no variance in the music from one to the other, both have amplified guitars and a drummer, as well as acoustic instruments, guitar and piano, and a woodwind player, who mikes his horns.

i've never been to a megachurch, but my wife attended Saddleback a few times before we were married, before The Purpose Driven Life was published. and she attended a very large church in Seattle.

the worst part of megachurches is that it is possible to come and go -- driving 30+ miles -- and never connect to anyone, simply be a consumer and not become part of God's provision for others, but this isn't restricted to megachurches. anyone can come and go and not be involved beyond sitting in the pew and listening to the music, or whatever suits you.

megachurches, by virtue of their very size, allow for anonymity, but it isn't required, and Saddleback has hundreds of home fellowship groups that meet weekday nights to get people involved in a smaller venue. our church has about 30 such groups, with an average size of 10, so about half the congregation is meeting away from church. we are seeking to expand that to 90%, but that takes commitment.