Arsenal

[Dark Savante]

I know for a lot of posters Arsenal are a rival team, perhaps the rival team for a lot of you, but I've never harboured any ill feeling towards them, they've never been a team I despair losing too (over Lids and 'pool in particular) but I have enjoyed the strong competition between us over the last 15 years, perhaps moreso when Wenger arrived and Fergie took an extreme loathing to him.

Anyway, this thread is about my concerns that they are capitulating and might take a long, long while to recover from it. Wenger doesn't seem to have a plan B or a clue how to handle tough times. Super-Sol looks like he's lost the plot as do Gilberto, Pires & Ljunberg. I seriously doubt Henry is going to stick around if they don't qualify for the CL and Cole could be off to pastures new as well....the youngsters Reyes, Sendoros, Van Persie et all do not instill any fear (probably how opposition fans see the likes of Fletcher and Smith coming in as 'replacemenets' for legends of Keane and Scholes' standing) Walcott, Gilbert and co are way, way too young to benefit them for a good few years. That's a lot of shit for one team to handle in such a short space of time.

I feel now more than ever that all the teams who can truly hope to challenge for the title (ourselves, pool *shudder* , Arsenal) need to be at the top of their game in the forthcoming seasons to maintain pressure on Chelsea over the full term and that's why their fall from grace is a big concern for me. In all seriousness SAF's hatred of Wenger and his pathological need to destroy them combined with the genuine dislike Keano had with Vieira kept both teams on their toes. Perhaps we got too used to competing with them and only them, but I feel their downfall would be a big loss to the English game as a whole. It's players like Henry that give Rio his world-class stature - marking Henry out a league game is an accomplishment. It is also playing against the kind of football they are(were) capable of that acclimatises a lot of players to a more continental style of play and gives them experience of how to play against such teams in Europe. Losing out on all that would be a huge dent in the English game imo.

If they don't qualify for the CL this year, I think that'll be the break-up of a once great side - the last league winners I had respect for outside of ourselves - and with how Wenger seems to play the transfer markets and his general cluelessness in spotting clear and present danger, they are likely to be in the mire for a longer transitional period then we will take to build our new, great side.

Their 3 key-men were Vieira, Sol and Henry. Sol is perhaps the best CB the English game has ever seen if we consider B.Moore a sweeper and he looks like a shadow of himself out there. I think the loss of the remaining 2 next season, which seems to feasible for different reasons respectively, just spells the end for them. Where the hell would they be without Henry's contributions for example - they are not suited to conventional footy, the likes of which they would have to play without Henry.. so there is a lot to think about.

'Rivalry' aside, do the United fans on this board really want to see Le Gunners fall apart? Do you not think it'd be a great loss to see them struggle to manage a top 6 finish in the forthcoming seasons? And finally, do you not think that also affects us in the long haul? For myself, I always like the idea of crushing the best at their best, you know? When games are 50-50 affairs, intense and could go either way...and the build-up to the fixture is talked about a month prior. For me, that is excitement. I don't like the idea of hammering a weak team and that's a contributing factor to why I don't wish for Arsenal to lose the plot. Thoughts people?

Ah, I think I should add that I'd really like your thoughts on this issue and not page after page of flames and childish name calling. Much like El Grande Fletcher, it would be nice to get nice posts outta you oft' nasty fellas ;)

[StrikerCW]

You are right, it is no fun to see them in 5th place or so challenging to even make the qualifying rounds in the CL. They aren't even challenging the Mafia right now, in the time where our club needed them most to take point from the evil ones.

Your also right about the foils to our players, the competition between these two teams for a good while has been great and very strong IMO. As you say, it's been going around for about 15 years.. wouldn't that now qualify to be a rivalry, though? I'm not sure it matters now as they seem to be falling apart.

I think one problem was that Wenger played his team in a very different style than the rest of the league. It put the smaller teams into shock in which we are used to seeing these 5-0 scorelines. However, I think the rest of the league has caught onto their game and has stepped up. The style Arsenal plays now seems to be null and void in the league (although decent in the CL, it seems which is the main point of this arguement).

From reading parts of Fever Pitch, I get the feeling that before Wenger; Arsenal were just a bunch of hard workers with not that much skill but got stuck in and played hard in the old English style. Now I wasn't around to watch back in the day, but I think this is now were the Arsenal team are going to head. Their skill players aren't having the affect they should anymore and there might have to be a change in the management. On that note, I think there is relationship between Fergie's position with the club and Wenger's (possibly). Both have gotten their respective clubs up to great heights and are now (somewhat) falling by the wayside, but both have been around long enough for the club to stick by them through the bad times. I just don't know how long Wenger is going to be stuck by compared to Ferguson, though...

[Dark Savante]

The rumour mill is saying Sven outted Sol to the NOTW and they are going to run with the story in the next few weeks, which is why Sol's lost the plot.

[Motterman]

The rumour mill is saying Sven outted Sol to the NOTW and they are going to run with the story in the next few weeks, which is why Sol's lost the plot.

That Brit Press is something else, aint't it? :(

[Dark Savante]

That Brit Press is something else, aint't it? :(
It really is, sadly. The worst thing is, everyone knows that if they have the story they will run it no matter the destruction it'd cause. I think Sol quits football if this rumour turns out to be true tbh. An openly gay player cannot cope in the league.

[Achtung]

It's definitely quite different seeing Arsenal stuck in neutral in midtable, certainly for those of us who have started following the game within the last decade. I'm not sure what the future will hold for the two clubs as rivals if Arsenal don't manage to get back into the elite teams. There is obviously a lot of season left to go, but at the same time you really get the feeling that this team has almost nothing in common with the undefeated team of just two seasons ago.

Whether Wenger is able to successfully rebuild again is going to demonstrate what kind of manager he really is. He needs to bring in the sort of young talent Fergie has been great at getting--whether Reyes, van Persie, etc. are going to truly be the backbone of this club is yet to be determined. Wenger has already won with essentially two great teams, the one of Seaman, Adams, Dixon, Bergkamp, Petit, Overmars; and the one of Henry, Vieira, Cole, Campbell, Pires. I don't think that group looks like they'll be able to do it again, barring a great CL run (not out of the question, as we've seen the past few years). They need to similarly find and develop another great set of players.

There's always a conflict in the way you see a team like Arsenal. They gave us a lot of problems over the years, but at the same time you have a certain appreciation for their part in the rivalry we had, certainly the one at the top of the table. Whether there is an element of schadenfreude in their fall, I'm not sure. I like that United-Arsenal is the most talked-about fixture of the year, and I know that's because of Fergie/Wenger, Rio/Henry, their hatred of Ruud, Rooney, and Ronaldo, and ours of Pires, Cole, and Sol. We've lost the Vieira/Keane factor, which is a huge loss in my opinion.

I think the rivalry has definitely lost something. With the rise of Chelsea and Arsenal's dropoff, the match at Highbury (which I was at) was an almost dour affair. It just didn't have that spirit in it, and I was disappointed considering all the great battles the two teams had waged in the past, often with title implications.

We'll always have a title rival as long as we put together a team that can genuinely challenge for the title. I suppose this year and maybe while they're still rebuilding, it'll be Chelsea and Liverpool instead. I'm fine with that as long as, like I said, we don't get into the situation Arsenal has. I guess you could say we're in rebuilding now, but I certainly don't feel like we're falling apart at the seams. What effect Chelsea's continued spending combined with the debts incurred by Gl*zer will have on that, I don't know. But I guess there will always be nostalgia about the great bouts with Arsenal that we've had over the years. Of course maybe they'll recover, and we'll start a whole new round of great and meaningful matches against them.

[yossarian]

Dear United supporters,

We promise to try and get better so you can stop pitying us and start hating us again.

Sincerely,

The Arsenal




;)

[GrodZilla]

I actually have to say that I'd gladly see the Gunners fall apart.

I'm not proud of it, but it is the honest truth. I have no love lost for them. I'm a bit too young to really be involved in Liverpools stranglehold on England and we have always been better than Leeds and Man City as well so I can't really bring myself to feel that much towards them. But Aresnal, I just can't stand them, no love lost whatsoever. I wouldnt shed a tear if Arsenal got relegated to leauge 2 and I'd still love to kick their ass when we got them in the Leauge Cup. To humiliate them will always make my season no matter what.

I see all of Arsenals problems amassing with an undivided joy, well maybe with a wee bit of glee. This is me from my worst side.

[GrodZilla]

Dear United supporters,

We promise to try and get better so you can stop pitying us and start hating us again.

Sincerely,

The Arsenal



As I said before.. I'll never stop hating you... so no worries mate

[Motterman]

I don't care for Wenger or the rest of his soupchucking bastards, I almost despise them, but for some reason I can't enjoy hating them as much when they're struggling so badly...

Also, most of the Arsenal fans I've met are decent people, and this doesn't help build an unhealthy rivalry at all.... :p

[Bighorn]

I'm not sure what the future will hold for the two clubs as rivals if Arsenal don't manage to get back into the elite teams.

Come on now, mate...that's just a little bit dramatic isn't it? We've been in the top division longer than anyone and this will be our first time out of the top two in how long? One year does not a trend make.

As for the rest, I value our rivalry with you as much as any other club in the Prem and find the current state of both clubs a little disappointing.

Keep the faith though, we'll come back to be the fly in your ointment soon enough.

[Achtung]

Also, most of the Arsenal fans I've met are decent people, and this doesn't help build an unhealthy rivalry at all.... :p

Do have to say though that while the ones I've met in person have been great folks, some of the ones who came on here a couple seasons ago and were so, so arrogant... well let's just say I have zero sympathy for them. Of course now they're either not on BigSoccer, or starting "Wenger has lost it" threads every five minutes.

[Vermont Red]

As an American and a recently-minted fan, the only team that I truly dislike is Chelsea. Even in the past when we have played the Gunners, I have always had a grudging respect for what they accomplished and how they did it. In my limited experience, it seems possible that Wenger opened the door for additional tactical innovation in the Prem.

For me, I would always like to see United, Liverpool and Arsenal battling it out at the top of the table. While I would like United to win the league every year, it is always sweeter if the rivals provide a test.

I would also like the Gunners to remain a real rival for one simple reason; we own them psychologically. I'm not certain if we will ever gain that advantage over Chelsea or Liverpool.

[Stud83]

Well, it was pretty clear that they were gonna struggle after their ridiculous off-season. I personally would love to see them struggle and be outside of top 3 teams for a few seasons and string together a few big victories against them in a row. :D As a rival, I would much rather see us competing against strong Liverpool than Arsenal.
That's what I expect to happen - it'll take Arsenal a few years to reload, most likely they'll get rid of Sol, Henry, Ljunberg, Pires and Bergkamp within the next 2 seasons, get a few promising youngsters scouted by Wenger, probably will spend a fortune trying to get a new team leader... They'll be back sooner than you may expect

[Achtung]

Come on now, mate...that's just a little bit dramatic isn't it? We've been in the top division longer than anyone and this will be our first time out of the top two in how long? One year does not a trend make.

As for the rest, I value our rivalry with you as much as any other club in the Prem and find the current state of both clubs a little disappointing.

Keep the faith though, we'll come back to be the fly in your ointment soon enough.

Well, what I meant by "not in the elite teams" was basically the situation Liverpool got into (and arguably are still in) where they don't challenge for the title very often. I don't think that will happen to Arsenal, but I was saying if it does, it'll take the luster off of our meetings, especially as we don't really have a geographic rivalry.

It's just tough to say who will be the heart of the team a year from now. Of course there is also every possibility Henry, Sol, and Cole will be back and playing like their old selves again.

[Motterman]

Of course now they're either not on BigSoccer, or starting "Wenger has lost it" threads every five minutes...

...or switched user names and teams and are now the arrogant bastards on the Chelsea board.

[Motterman]

Arsenal's new ground will help them bounce back quite quickly, I expect. Of course, I think that keeping Henry is key to them not dropping down below 4th place in the next few years...

BTW, I think Van Persie is quite promising for them.

[Achtung]

I would also like the Gunners to remain a real rival for one simple reason; we own them psychologically. I'm not certain if we will ever gain that advantage over Chelsea or Liverpool.

I think we had that over Liverpool for quite a while. It was to the point where they resorted to bunker ball against us in a few games. And let's face it: even though they won the CL, they've finished above us in the table once since the Premiership started. I don't think they have the psychological upper hand at all, especially after the way we beat them last time. ;)

[Bluto11]

4 points, a game in hand (albiet against Pool at anfield, so def not a given 3 points) to 4th place, with lots of games left. if any team should know about a late collapse and giving up a double digit lead late in the season it's United, right?!?!?

[Achtung]

Arsenal's new ground will help them bounce back quite quickly, I expect. Of course, I think that keeping Henry is key to them not dropping down below 4th place in the next few years...

BTW, I think Van Persie is quite promising for them.

I'd still put decent money on them getting to 4th this season actually, if they recover from their injury situation.