How do you feel about your Peruanidad?

[superfrantheman]

i've been watching a lot of shows from this spaniard channel TVE, well this is a good channel that now has a programa called ESPANOLE EN EL MUNDO, and they basically interview and show spaniards living abroad. they did peru on last week, and they had two spaniards one living in lima, and the other one living in ayacucho, and another one, guess who that was? felipe carbonell? does the name sound familiar? well i think he is "el baboso de los babosos" spanish version....

Anyways on yesterday the show was recorded again, and they now had KOREA. they talked about the lifesytle they have "inherited" in korea, because trust me those spaniards dont look spaniard anymore they eat dog, those weird plants, algae and more stuff koreans eat. But what got me surprised , and really surprised was that there was one guy from Madrid whose name was Atahualpa.

That fool was from freaking Madrid and had the name of one of our Incas! how in the world that happened? crazy parents huh.....

well should we name our kids(well for me in 2020 or more) Tupac like Tupi Venero? Manco? Sinchi? Yoque? Yupanqui?

[Dominican Lou]

What condition? A fundamental aspect? Absolutely, doesn't mean it isn't totally at odds with what I would call Lima culture. Moreover, how and when did it become fundamental? It is well documented that Andean culture was forced upon all of Peru through the mass re-education by the nationalist and leftist military government of Don Velasco Alvarado. Or do you actually think that Túpac Amaru was always universally heralded as a national hero in our textbooks? :)


If this is the case, then anyone who finished high school before 1968 must regard him as less than a national hero, right? Somehow, I haven't gotten that impression from people 59 years and older.

A better question is, if that nationalist, leftist and military government "forced" Andean culture for the 7 years they were in power, what do you think the rightist military governments in the other 450+ years did? Oh yeah, they didn't force anything, they were neutral? C'mooon.

And yes, there is a Limeno culture which has traditionally been decidedly anti-Indian and pro-European. However, I believe Andean/Indian culture is the fundamental part of the larger Peruvian culture simply because that's where the vast majority of Peruvians lived for 80% of our history.

Up until the mid 20th century, Lima was a small, wealthy city where only a very small proportion of Peruvians lived. If the vast majority of people in a country come from a certain region, doesn't it make sense that that region's culture be the most important?

If there is repudiation, mine would be more temporal than anthropological. For its 500 year stagnation. Who doesn't appreciate Machu Picchu or Incan civilization? But it remains in the past. A parallel can be drawn between the wholesale praise of those Incan glories with our current situation in soccer...which is: living off old glories, something to be dusted while celebrating our cultural patrimony. Andean culture is irrelevant and ill-equipped to affront modern problems.




First bolded part: Actually, Andean culture =/= Incas. Yes, the Inca Empire ended when the Spanish invaded but guess what, the Andean region continued to have people who lived, worked and, you know, had culture. You seem to think that people in la sierra disappeared when the Spanish arrived (and then, of course, re-appeared in the 50s and 60s to mess Lima up :mad:)

Second bolded part: :eek: Holy friggin' Jesus, I can't believe I'm reading this. Repudiation doesn't fit anymore. You have some downright contempt and disgust for anything Indian, my man. You're on par with Vargas Llosa.

You seem hell-bent on equating Andean culture with backwardness, ignorance and savagery, and I feel obligated to disagree.

First off, it cannot be irrelevant since the same Andean dances and songs that make you cringe and turn red with shame are the ones that are proudly displayed at any large-scale displays of Peruvian culture. This is both here and in Peru. If anything, there is an increasing interest in Andean culture.

Check out brisasdeltiticaca.com Full-on Andean shows for middle-class folks in Lima that, from what I hear, get sold out night after night. And it ain't cheap either. Go to Eventos -> Noches de Folklore - > Tarifas and check out the prices.

Probably the most well-known pop artist in Peru singing a huayno classic... in quechua! And people are actually cheering! (he's done this several times, btw)

YouTube - Gianmarco - Adios Pueblo de Ayacucho, Todos Vuelven, Hoy

Several songs off of Pedro Suarez Vertiz's last CD had charango and Andean flutes mixed in to his pop rock, too.

You don't like it, you wish it'd just go away, fine. But it is FAR from irrelevant.

Second, no culture is static. They all evolve to fit the demands of its environment. So no, Andean culture of the 1500s is not fit to affront 21st century problems, but guess what, neither was Limeno culture of the 1500s. Present-day Andean culture includes "modern" thoughts, ideas and norms. It's changed from its backwardness... just like Limeno culture has evolved from its supreme backwardness.

[Dominican Lou]

lol
I was referring to the one that was drawn and quartered...the other one, related no? I don't know how failing at insurrection makes you noble. I prefer that my national heros, when facing imminent failure, take out as many mofos as they can a la José Quiñones.

Latter-day Tupac was good in that movie with Mickey O'Rourke. And Juice?

Yeah, nothing special about some dude that wanted independence from the conqueror that was submitting his people... and that actually did something about it.

[condor11]

Check out brisasdeltiticaca.com Full-on Andean shows for middle-class folks in Lima that, from what I hear, get sold out night after night. And it ain't cheap either. Go to Eventos -> Noches de Folklore - > Tarifas and check out the prices.


been there twice, the tourists pack it out, its quite surprising really

particularly because it isnt in shall we say a touristy part of Lima

[mendozavr]

If this is the case, then anyone who finished high school before 1968 must regard him as less than a national hero, right? Somehow, I haven't gotten that impression from people 59 years and older.

A better question is, if that nationalist, leftist and military government "forced" Andean culture for the 7 years they were in power, what do you think the rightist military governments in the other 450+ years did? Oh yeah, they didn't force anything, they were neutral? C'mooon.

And yes, there is a Limeno culture which has traditionally been decidedly anti-Indian and pro-European. However, I believe Andean/Indian culture is the fundamental part of the larger Peruvian culture simply because that's where the vast majority of Peruvians lived for 80% of our history.

Up until the mid 20th century, Lima was a small, wealthy city where only a very small proportion of Peruvians lived. If the vast majority of people in a country come from a certain region, doesn't it make sense that that region's culture be the most important?



First bolded part: Actually, Andean culture =/= Incas. Yes, the Inca Empire ended when the Spanish invaded but guess what, the Andean region continued to have people who lived, worked and, you know, had culture. You seem to think that people in la sierra disappeared when the Spanish arrived (and then, of course, re-appeared in the 50s and 60s to mess Lima up )

Second bolded part: Holy friggin' Jesus, I can't believe I'm reading this. Repudiation doesn't fit anymore. You have some downright contempt and disgust for anything Indian, my man. You're on par with Vargas Llosa.

You seem hell-bent on equating Andean culture with backwardness, ignorance and savagery, and I feel obligated to disagree.

First off, it cannot be irrelevant since the same Andean dances and songs that make you cringe and turn red with shame are the ones that are proudly displayed at any large-scale displays of Peruvian culture. This is both here and in Peru. If anything, there is an increasing interest in Andean culture.

Check out brisasdeltiticaca.com Full-on Andean shows for middle-class folks in Lima that, from what I hear, get sold out night after night. And it ain't cheap either. Go to Eventos -> Noches de Folklore - > Tarifas and check out the prices.

Probably the most well-known pop artist in Peru singing a huayno classic... in quechua! And people are actually cheering! (he's done this several times, btw)

YouTube - Gianmarco - Adios Pueblo de Ayacucho, Todos Vuelven, Hoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gak5VCmWE6U&feature=related)

Several songs off of Pedro Suarez Vertiz's last CD had charango and Andean flutes mixed in to his pop rock, too.

You don't like it, you wish it'd just go away, fine. But it is FAR from irrelevant.

Second, no culture is static. They all evolve to fit the demands of its environment. So no, Andean culture of the 1500s is not fit to affront 21st century problems, but guess what, neither was Limeno culture of the 1500s. Present-day Andean culture includes "modern" thoughts, ideas and norms. It's changed from its backwardness... just like Limeno culture has evolved from its supreme backwardness.

What I said about Velasco Alvarado and textbooks is true. My question only makes the implication if T.A. wasn't universally recognized, he now was. As for impressionable old people - well, we all like Pisco like it came down from the Wiracocha itself no? It wasn't always that way. What better way to market conflate nationalism with consumption.

True, in the textbooks before Alvarado, Pizarro was portrayed in a better light, the truth is probably somewhere in between. And I wouldn't expect neutrality from anything Peruvian, even the smell of some of our foods is contentious (sudado), by the same token I just happen to hate Velasco Alvarado with a passion.

Well at least this emphasis on Andean culture is democratic, I'm relieved. No, of course the Andean population didn't disappear but they surely didn't do anything of note since then but to put its culture in maintenance mode - and why not, the Incan empire is prideworthy. But imagine any other culture in the world stagnating at some point of its development and you'll see what I meant with my complaint.

"To mess up Lima", those are your words. :eek: Contempt? ?? Cringe? Red face? Whaaat...do you know me? What do you know of my musical taste? :eek: Wish it were gone away? This is intractable, I can't respond to things I didn't write.

Just because I make a statement about the state of Andean culture, doesn't mean I don't wish it well!

[Garcia]

Great conversations lately, guys.

The Peru forums...not just for huevadas anymore.

or should it say...new and improved huevadas?! :p

[mendozavr]

Great conversations lately, guys.

The Peru forums...not just for huevadas anymore.

or should it say...new and improved huevadas?! :p

I was being provocative because I was bored. :D

[mendozavr]

Yeah, nothing special about some dude that wanted independence from the conqueror that was submitting his people... and that actually did something about it.

How Romantic, though for futile uprisings I prefer Les Misérables. :)

Regardless of politics, violence should be a last resort, I don't know how much Tupac would try to argue his case through more peaceful channels, or campaigning for his cause to the more "mixed classes"...I could see the wholesale massacre of Spaniards as alienating the more peaceful Indians, and the mestizos. Sounds familiar, perhaps something akin to the MRTA and Shining Path of the 80s?

Is violence really the best way to get someone or a group of people to agree with you? It's sad that they had to resort to that. Dying a martyr can be great but the luster is gone if it's found out that one's actions weren't preceded by careful thought, then it just becomes self-immolation. Did he really expect to win? Who knows.

[CIA]

Dying a martyr can be great but the luster is gone if it's found out that one's actions weren't preceded by careful thought, then it just becomes self-immolation. Did he really expect to win? Who knows.
This is where you crossed the line....

I mean, ********ing seriously? Did you expect the natives to protest/talk it out with the Spaniards ala Gandhi?

[mendozavr]

This is where you crossed the line....

I mean, ********ing seriously? Did you expect the natives to protest/talk it out with the Spaniards ala Gandhi?

Oh Lord. Perhaps you should become aquainted with the historical accounts because many concur that Tupac and some natives did exactly that. You don't think they were capable of that? I certainly do. You don't? Or you wouldn't let them? Who's belittling the natives now? ;)

Anyways, Tupac used his position to argue his case - to what extent I don't know. My main point was the more abstract, the nature of martyrdom, the specifics bore me to death. That I used Tupac as an example is irrelevant, it could've been any martyr for all I care.

BTW - the Spaniards? Not all Spaniards were (innately) evil. Some sided with the natives just like some natives sided with the Spaniards. Same for the mestizos in Lima. Of course, the proportions differ, but I just don't think someone deserves to die just because they are from Spain.

On a personal level, I'm worried about you. Your thinking is too black and white, with a hint of knee-jerk violence... maybe a career as a tyrant is in the cards for you? :D

[locotl]

This is where you crossed the line....

I mean, ********ing seriously? Did you expect the natives to protest/talk it out with the Spaniards ala Gandhi?

of course Hong Kong got rid of their English conquerors after only a "few years" just by talking. The importance of Tupac was he was a mestizo and together with his wife Maria Parado de Bellido were the first ones (if not first the most notorious) that started the revol against the Spaniards.


well should we name our kids(well for me in 2020 or more) Tupac like Tupi Venero? Manco? Sinchi? Yoque? Yupanqui?

[mendoza] ahy no que asco [mendoza/]:rolleyes:

[mendozavr]

of course Hong Kong got rid of their English conquerors after only a "few years" just by talking. The importance of Tupac was he was a mestizo and together with his wife Maria Parado de Bellido were the first ones (if not first the most notorious) that started the revol against the Spaniards.

Hong Kong and it's people benefited from British financial culture. A model that even "red" China is aping. As an excercise, do a comparison of the current economic state of ex-British colonies and ex-Spanish colonies.

[mendoza] ahy no que asco [mendoza/]:rolleyes:

This isn't my opinion, but I am glad you could share the state of your reading comprehension.

Oh wait I just realized your aim was to insult me by implying that I hate historically Andean names. Touche. I'm a little offended but if you aren't going to name your kids Manco or Sinchi, then your comment isn't valid just as my opinion on naming kids surely doesn't matter to anyone but me. An opinion which I haven't even shared in this thread, but thanks for assuming the worst. :)

In my experience, the only people who I've seen do that are some of the more extreme wings of the Peruvian military.

[mendozavr]

Tough pitchfork crowd here.

Let's talk about quipus.

Untangling the Mystery of the Inca
The ancient Andean empire built great cities but left no written records – except perhaps in mysterious knotted strings called khipu. Can an anthropologist and some mathematicians crack the code?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.01/khipu.html

[CIA]

Oh Lord. Perhaps you should become aquainted with the historical accounts because many concur that Tupac and some natives did exactly that. You don't think they were capable of that? I certainly do. You don't? Or you wouldn't let them? Who's belittling the natives now? ;)
Yes, because the Spanish were ones to want peace. "Dogs, dogs. We only come here to conquer your land, steal your gold, oppress your people, rape your women, and force religion upon you. But bear in mind that we want no trouble, and we can talk it out."

BTW - the Spaniards? Not all Spaniards were (innately) evil. Some sided with the natives just like some natives sided with the Spaniards. Same for the mestizos in Lima. Of course, the proportions differ, but I just don't think someone deserves to die just because they are from Spain.Yes, yes. The Spaniards had other reasons to come to Peru apart from the formerly mentioned.:rolleyes:

The Spanish people to which you're referring to that sided with the natives were born in Peru, hence them being PERUVIANS!

On a personal level, I'm worried about you. Your thinking is too black and white, with a hint of knee-jerk violence... maybe a career as a tyrant is in the cards for you? :DDude, I'm what you could call a neo-hippie. Violence should always be the last resort, but in this case, it was the only one.

One more question, Why should we suppress our heritage? And how does bringing it up influence the way the country is currently running? Unless you're reffering to the cholos in the inner regions that take matters into their own hands; to which is fine by me, since the cops don't do shit..

[mendozavr]

Yes, because the Spanish were ones to want peace. "Dogs, dogs. We only come here to conquer your land, steal your gold, oppress your people, rape your women, and force religion upon you. But bear in mind that we want no trouble, and we can talk it out."
Yes, yes. The Spaniards had other reasons to come to Peru apart from the formerly mentioned.:rolleyes:

The original Conquistadors were like that. But did you expect civility from a bunch of uneducated mercenaries? The magistrates, emissaries, and fake-kings who worked the Indians for cheap labor were probably like that. There *was* some civility in the time of Tupac, if almost feudal, but there was a status quo. Every history book is tainted, so maybe all we need is a time machine to see how it really was.

The Spanish people to which you're referring to that sided with the natives were born in Peru, hence them being PERUVIANS!

No, I was referring to full blooded Spanish. Some Spaniards sided with the native - most of them in the mold of De Las Casas, or don't tell me you would headshot pwn that spaniard noob De Las Casas too?

btw. Have you ever been to Spain? Do you have any Spanish friends? Somehow I doubt it...

Dude, I'm what you could call a neo-hippie. Violence should always be the last resort, but in this case, it was the only one.

Aren't you the same guy that argues with Lou all the time? How cute, haha, you're his Trotsky to his Lenin, fighting against Marxism-Louninism. :D

One more question, Why should we suppress our heritage? And how does bringing it up influence the way the country is currently running? Unless you're reffering to the cholos in the inner regions that take matters into their own hands; to which is fine by me, since the cops don't do shit..

I never said anything by suppressing heritage. :rolleyes: I was whining about its stagnation as a living culture. I don't understand the context of the rest of your paragraph, sorry.

[CIA]

No, I was referring to full blooded Spanish. Some Spaniards sided with the native - most of them in the mold of De Las Casas, or don't tell me you would headshot pwn that spaniard noob De Las Casas too? When I was referring to the "Spaniards," I was speaking about the oppressors. And you damn well know that.

btw. Have you ever been to Spain? Do you have any Spanish friends? Somehow I doubt it...

No mans, I only happen to be half Basque....

Aren't you the same guy that argues with Lou all the time? How cute, haha, you're his Trotsky to his Lenin, fighting against Marxism-Louninism.

How is arguing violent?:confused: By your logic, then I guess you're straight up G-shit.:D

I never said anything by suppressing heritage. :rolleyes: I was whining about its stagnation as a living culture. I don't understand the context of the rest of your paragraph, sorry.
.....

[mendozavr]

When I was referring to the "Spaniards," I was speaking about the oppressors. And you damn well know that.

Ah ya. Well I was referring to the whole population.

No mans, I only happen to be half Basque...

A loyal Basque or a separatist Basque, because you know they have some crazy terrucos against Spain up in there too right?

How is arguing violent?:confused: By your logic, then I guess you're straight up G-shit.:D

"Fighting", I didn't mean that literally. Though if you guys want to really fight, I'd pay to watch that. :D

[CIA]

A loyal Basque or a separatist Basque, because you know they have some crazy terrucos against Spain up in there too right?
I am a "I could give a shit about anything Spanish ('xcept the football), but not enough to want them dead" Basque.;)



"Fighting", I didn't mean that literally. Though if you guys want to really fight, I'd pay to watch that. :D
Then how was your post relevant? :p

[mendozavr]

Then how was your post relevant? :p

"Aren't you the same guy that argues with Lou all the time? How cute, haha, you're his Trotsky to his Lenin, fighting against Marxism-Louninism."

Since you called yourself a violent hippie and are at odds with Lou, I was drawing a parallel between you and the relation Trotsky had with Lenin...you are Trotsky, he is Lenin, cut from the same cloth but disliked each other. I had to explain the joke. :( Not very funny, no? :D

[CIA]

"Aren't you the same guy that argues with Lou all the time? How cute, haha, you're his Trotsky to his Lenin, fighting against Marxism-Louninism."

Since you called yourself a violent hippie and are at odds with Lou, I was drawing a parallel between you and the relation Trotsky had with Lenin...you are Trotsky, he is Lenin, cut from the same cloth but disliked each other. I had to explain the joke. :( Not very funny, no? :DExplaining it again? Was not supposed to get the joke the first time or something?


"Dude, I'm what you could call a neo-hippie. Violence should always be the last resort, but in this case, it was the only one."

Now care to explain how that makes me violent.:confused: