Man United NSR Politics thread

[StrikerCW]

I'm up for letting anyone believe anything they won't I don't argue with too many people when they talk about this. In fact one of my friends is totally for evolution and the other is unsure about whether it is correct in its current form. The former always rags (in quite an idiotic way) the latter for not believing in it. The latter doesn't really have a good explaination about what he thinks; he just really makes up something to say that it hasn't been proven etc. but that he also doesn't believe in ID. This all came from a religion class he took when he apparently learned that Buddists believe that pondering such things a waste of time because it can't be proven so why try.

Personally, though, I think Creationism should stay way out of the school system. First of all you all know the seperation of church/state thing with schools. Secondly, the 'Creation' of the Earth should be handled in the church not the schools, as it was supposedly God who created the universe.

You can't 'prove' the evolutionary theory (it is a theory after all) persay. But you can find evidence that supports, and there isn't much evidence that refutes it. Find me a rabbit fossil from 500 million years ago when there was only bacteria and etc. And I will believe evolution doesn't exist. Can't do it can they? Why is that, how was there only bacteria back then and then dinosaurs, etc. There is no explaination other than that species change OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Prove that God created everything and allowed for 'evolution-like occurances' like that other than by faith alone.

[listen_up_fergie]

Umm, as long as intelligent design is offered as a non-graduation required elective rather than part of the main curriculum, I have absolutely no problems with it. Why not give a kid the choice of what he wants to believe in or study rather than impose something on him? If you can offer theology classes at a public university, then I can hardly see the horrible impact of teaching rudimentary Creationism in a high school.

I wouldn't be against it as an elective, even though I disagree with Intelligent Design.
It shouldn't be part of the high school science curriculum though, as its highly pseudoscientific.

[mhtwins113]

I was half kidding w/ my Creationism post.. the kidding part was the Chelsea part.

However, please explain to me, if Scientists have failed on inumerable occasions in controlled environments to replicate life in the manner in which they claim it came to be then why is the idea that a greater being is responsible for the earth.

I mean, even if you believe in the big bang what the hell made up the big bang... something existed before the world was formed and there's nothing silly about thinking that something was god when faced with a random collision of some enzymes forming life.

Note, I'm not saying don't teach evolution... I'm just saying don't throw the creation theory and intelligent design out the window.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

[StrikerCW]

Well, I get alot of my information from Wikipedia, but if you don't want to take that then thats ok too I'm sure it can be found elsewhere in other reputeable sources.

First, The Miller-Urey experiment showed that with the few different materials that were apparent in the atmosphere someodd billions years ago, spontaneous creation of some types of organics could be created through the induction of lightning in the system. i.e. the materials in the atmosphere were struck with induced lightning for a while and at the end of the experiment a number of proteins were randomly formed from the carbon and other materials. You can read about it here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment


edit: Of course there will always be controversy in this field of science but you see what this experiment at least partly shows the possibility of.

[listen_up_fergie]

I mean, even if you believe in the big bang what the hell made up the big bang... something existed before the world was formed and there's nothing silly about thinking that something was god when faced with a random collision of some enzymes forming life.

It's the same question that even arises from Creationism - who made God?


Note, I'm not saying don't teach evolution... I'm just saying don't throw the creation theory and intelligent design out the window.
True, creationism and intelligent design have little evidence, but a lack of evidence can't disprove anything. So it would be wrong to just throw it out of the window, even though I still believe that creationism and intelligent design should not have a place in the main curriculum in high schools.

[SirManchester]

I was half kidding w/ my Creationism post.. the kidding part was the Chelsea part.

However, please explain to me, if Scientists have failed on inumerable occasions in controlled environments to replicate life in the manner in which they claim it came to be then why is the idea that a greater being is responsible for the earth.

I mean, even if you believe in the big bang what the hell made up the big bang... something existed before the world was formed and there's nothing silly about thinking that something was god when faced with a random collision of some enzymes forming life.

Note, I'm not saying don't teach evolution... I'm just saying don't throw the creation theory and intelligent design out the window.

You and many others fail to see the value of science. Just look where it's gotten us so far. From the first stone tools to the ipod for one thing. It's made an astonishing progression in two hundred years alone. There's hard evidence in science which has proven and clarified A LOT of things since man first intemplated it. In due time, we will be able to figure it all out, whether its in two hundred more or even several thousands of years more, I'm certain we will figure it out. Science itself is evolving so what's so crazy about not believing that it will one day answer the big question.
As for creationism, or intelligent design, there's no hard evidence, it's just a silly theory with no backing up. What can anyone possibly gain out of being taught these two ideas? other than an assumption.

[Howard Zinn]

You and many others fail to see the value of science. Just look where it's gotten us so far. From the first stone tools to the ipod for one thing. It's made an astonishing progression in two hundred years alone. There's hard evidence in science which has proven and clarified A LOT of things since man first intemplated it. In due time, we will be able to figure it all out, whether its in two hundred more or even several thousands of years more, I'm certain we will figure it out. Science itself is evolving so what's so crazy about not believing that it will one day answer the big question.
As for creationism, or intelligent design, there's no hard evidence, it's just a silly theory with no backing up. What can anyone possibly gain out of being taught these two ideas? other than an assumption.


I doubt what I've bolded.

I think just about everyone sees the value of science, but even you admit that there are some things that science hasn't explained. To go back to my original point, we shouldn't teach kids things that can't be proven beyond a doubt. This includes scientific things that are usually taught, but that have some major holes.

[SirManchester]

I doubt what I've bolded.

I think just about everyone sees the value of science, but even you admit that there are some things that science hasn't explained. To go back to my original point, we shouldn't teach kids things that can't be proven beyond a doubt. This includes scientific things that are usually taught, but that have some major holes.

hold on a second, think..now read it again..now think again..

Hundreds of years ago, people were hellbent on thinking certain ideas couldn't be proven..People actually found it crazy that the world wasn't flat, that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, many many scientific theories that have been questioned before have most certainly been proven in the shortest time.
I mean, doesn't it amaze you how far we've come in two hundred years, TWO HUNDRED years man! Imagine what more we can accomplish, why are you limiting our ability as humans!?
I also can't believe people are actually writing off evolution and that there's no strong evidence for it. Evolution is a fact, it happened and it still happens!

[Howard Zinn]

hold on a second, think..now read it again..now think again..

Hundreds of years ago, people were hellbent on thinking certain ideas couldn't be proven..People actually found it crazy that the world wasn't flat, that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, many many scientific theories that have been questioned before have most certainly been proven in the shortest time.
I mean, doesn't it amaze you how far we've come in two hundred years, TWO HUNDRED years man! Imagine what more we can accomplish, why are you limiting our ability as humans!?
I also can't believe people are actually writing off evolution and that there's no strong evidence for it. Evolution is a fact, it happened and it still happens!

Again, I don't doubt the progress we have made in the last few hundred years, but you are talking about knowing EVERYTHING in the next few hundred years. That's a bold claim to make. Like you say, we still haven't convinced plenty of people to not doubt that evolution is real, mainly because because there are still lose ends that need to be tied up. Heck, for all we knew a nuclear war could start tomorrow and the whole planet will be blown up. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes raised too high.

[SirManchester]

Again, I don't doubt the progress we have made in the last few hundred years, but you are talking about knowing EVERYTHING in the next few hundred years. That's a bold claim to make. Like you say, we still haven't convinced plenty of people to not doubt that evolution is real, mainly because because there are still lose ends that need to be tied up. Heck, for all we knew a nuclear war could start tomorrow and the whole planet will be blown up. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes raised too high.

1. I never said we will know everything in a few hundred years, I'm not sure whether it will be in a few hundred years or a few thousand years. However that we will get closer and closer to the truth is undeniable.

2. There are no lose ends on evolution. Who said that!? who believes that should actually study it.

Obviously we don't live in a perfect world. :rolleyes: BUT, to doubt the human potential, the human mind, is absolutely ridiculous.

[Sapphire]

I don't think it's possible to know everything, and I certainly don't think science is a vehicle for absolute truth.

I think we all understand that what is perceived as scientific fact changes. That's completely consistant with the scientific method and with science itself. It is best possible explanation, that's what it is. So, it makes sense to me that you teach kids scientific method; explain to them what a "scientific theory" is; explain that in the history of science we gradually come up with better and better explanations, often debunking or seriously modifying what we thought before; and give them the most current scientific thinking on the subject (in this case, it's the Big Bang, or expanding universe theory or whatever scientific theory is best holding up). I think even younger kids are smart enough to handle that. We need to be honest about what we do and don't understand and what the limitations of our methods are. If we're teaching kids that anything about the origin of the universe is absolute truth in a science classroom, then we're seriously misrepresenting what science is all about.

[StrikerCW]

We will never know everything, its been mathematically proven!

The reason people don't believe Evolution is because what they learn from birth tells them not to. Not because there isn't proof. There is more proof that it is possible than that Creationism exists. People fail to beleive in something that has scientific fact behind it, if not proof. But will put their life down on something that was read out of a book. No offense to religious people but its the way it is.

[Howard Zinn]

1. I never said we will know everything in a few hundred years, I'm not sure whether it will be in a few hundred years or a few thousand years. However that we will get closer and closer to the truth is undeniable.

2. There are no lose ends on evolution. Who said that!? who believes that should actually study it.

Obviously we don't live in a perfect world. :rolleyes: BUT, to doubt the human potential, the human mind, is absolutely ridiculous.

1. I'm happy you can see into the future and see all of this wonderful progress that will be made. :rolleyes: And what exactly is this "truth" that you mention.

2. Yeah, no lose ends on evolution. You don't seem to understand that I'm on your side in believing evolution, but to say there are no holes in the theory is a bit on the insane side.

Maybe you don't doubt the human mind and potential enough. This is the same planet that can't figure out peace in the middle east, yet you have us discovering the "truth" in a few hundred/thousand years. Like I said, we may all be blown to bits tomorrow.

[StrikerCW]

I can figure out peace in the Middle East, go back 60 years and put Israel in Alaska (or someplace that is not something that was held for 1 thousand years before the British took it over.

[SirManchester]

I don't think it's possible to know everything, and I certainly don't think science is a vehicle for absolute truth.

I think we all understand that what is perceived as scientific fact changes. That's completely consistant with the scientific method and with science itself. It is best possible explanation, that's what it is. So, it makes sense to me that you teach kids scientific method; explain to them what a "scientific theory" is; explain that in the history of science we gradually come up with better and better explanations, often debunking or seriously modifying what we thought before; and give them the most current scientific thinking on the subject (in this case, it's the Big Bang, or expanding universe theory or whatever scientific theory is best holding up). I think even younger kids are smart enough to handle that. We need to be honest about what we do and don't understand and what the limitations of our methods are. If we're teaching kids that anything about the origin of the universe is absolute truth in a science classroom, then we're seriously misrepresenting what science is all about.

You're already touching on what I've said before, Science is alive and evolving. Of course it's not guaranteed, because the answer is based on theories, hypothesis and experiments. The more and more we work on a certain topic the closer we will get to the truth. gravity for example, scientists weren't sure on it before, but it was worked on and it was figured out, enough so that it is now taught in classes as a universal truth. Same gors for every unanswered question.
How do you doubt that we will one day be amazingly close to the final answer when we've made so much progression already!?

[Howard Zinn]

I can figure out peace in the Middle East, go back 60 years and put Israel in Alaska (or someplace that is not something that was held for 1 thousand years before the British took it over.


Wonder what the Alaskans would do when they got their land taken from them and given to Jews. :rolleyes:

[StrikerCW]

Wonder what the Alaskans would do when they got their land taken from them and given to Jews. :rolleyes:
It was an example, but nonetheless in 1946 Alaska wasn't a state. And even now there are only 600k ppl living there. There is plenty of room there. :D

[Sapphire]

How do you doubt that we will one day be amazingly close to the final answer when we've made so much progression already!?We seem to be in agreement that progress will be made, and serious technological advancement. I just don't believe in "final truth" I guess. Maybe because I do have spiritual beliefs at the core of my thinking about the world, I think there are things that are in a sense unknowable. Also, looking at the history of man, we're not very good at pulling together and finding the truth for its own sake. We usually destroy each other first.

(Try taking a course in postmodern philosophy or theory for one of your electives; you won't be bored then if you believe in absolute truth :D )

[SirManchester]

1. I'm happy you can see into the future and see all of this wonderful progress that will be made. :rolleyes: And what exactly is this "truth" that you mention.

2. Yeah, no lose ends on evolution. You don't seem to understand that I'm on your side in believing evolution, but to say there are no holes in the theory is a bit on the insane side.

Maybe you don't doubt the human mind and potential enough. This is the same planet that can't figure out peace in the middle east, yet you have us discovering the "truth" in a few hundred/thousand years. Like I said, we may all be blown to bits tomorrow.


It's not that I see in the future, but look at what science has accomplished in the last two hundred years. You can think someone said this exact thing back then, they would have never thought we would have the technology we do today.
I'm certainly not an expert on the topic, however I took classes and like to do read about it in my spare time, I attended several lectures by the most accomplished teachers of evolution. I really don't want to brag but if anyone actually thinks there are holes in the idea behind evolution, then those people have to actually study it instead of just calling sh!t out of the blue.

And please don't link scientists with corrupt politicians. They don't have the same goals in mind, so it's an obscure conclusion on your behalf.

[Howard Zinn]

It was an example, but nonetheless in 1946 Alaska wasn't a state. And even now there are only 600k ppl living there. There is plenty of room there. :D


Someone should make this their Sig:

StrikerCW's solution for peace in the Middle East, "Go back in time and put the Jews in Alaska. There's plenty of room there." ;) :D