Man United NSR Politics thread

[Motterman]

THIS is why Hillary would have so much trouble getting elected. People eat this stuff up.

Hillary Clinton is not the worst person in the world.... there, I said it.

[Achtung]

Saddam used WMD gasses in the past against his own people and had several tunnel systems, and wouldnt let our inspectors in. That is just a red flag saying we have WMD's. It turns out they didnt have them but honestly what else were we suppose to think? I dont think in the world we live in now we can just dismiss ideas that people might have WMD's.

Problem though is that you can't start a war based on circumstantial evidence. Bush exacerbated this by claiming to have the smoking gun, which of course ended up being essentially false evidence. The point being that if he's going to be so adamant about the threat posed by Saddam and going to somehow tie it all in to 9/11 (to which there was no connection), he should have made completely sure that it was correct. People felt deceived when it ended up being wrong, whatever the original motives may have been.


We have to be on the offencesive just as Bush said last night and his adress. Also we cant wait for them to attack us again we have to attack them.

Do our methods of doing this make us more safe or less safe though? When in the process of going after the terrorists, we also manage to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians, I'm inclined to think the latter. I think we need to rethink the way we're doing this.


Bush's State of the Union- I liked this speech, he didnt come out gun blazing like he has in the past, rather he tried to unite the two partys. He appealed to both party's and the dems even stoop and applouded. He was able to crack jokes and let the dems have there joke on him about not passing his bill. I agree whe he says we have to put our differences aside and unite to be succsesful.

I think he also realizes that a mid-term election year is not the time to come out guns blazing with radical new proposals, especially when you've long ago used up your political capital.


A Few stats I was happily suprised by-

The deficit will be cut in half by 2009

This I remain highly skeptical about given that he wants to make the tax cuts permanent and continue spending on the war(s). The numbers don't seem to be adding up. Not that it matters to Bush since we'll have a new president in 2009 anyways.

I should add though that its great to see people your age taking part in and understanding how current events shape our lives. A lot of people, even older folks, want to ignore it all and believe it doesn't affect them, but everything going on in the news really does. It's good to realize that while you're young so hopefully by the time you get to vote, you'll be able to make decisions based on the information.

[Motterman]

The numbers don't seem to be adding up. Not that it matters to Bush since we'll have a new president in 2009 anyways.

You're right there, Bush wasn't the first (and won't be the last) when it comes to setting lofty goals to be completed by a following Administration.

[Achtung]

You're right there, Bush wasn't the first (and won't be the last) when it comes to setting lofty goals to be completed by a following Administration.

That's what makes America great though--"can't someone else do it?" :D

[Vermont Red]

There is little doubt that the Federal government knew that the evidence of WMD's in Iraq was tenuous, at best. The real question is how much did Bush know. I give him the benefit of the doubt, that no one ever told him that they didn't have evidence to support the claims. This is what's known as cold comfort.

[StrikerCW]

I agree with everything you say Achtung. The matter of the fact is that there is no logical reasoning for going to war this time at all. There is no reason for the boys to be over there now (or there shouldn't have been a reason to start) there is no reason why my roomate's girlfriend's dad was nearly hit with a suicide bomber in Iraq and he is supposed to go back in three years. There is no reason my father should have to go to Afghanistan for 10 weeks to build airfields (Afghanistan has a little more reason than Iraq, but still no reason he should have had to risk his life for something that in no way affects us or that we didn't cause to happen in the past).

Also, the shite is about to hit the fan I feel in the Middle East. Perhaps Iran do not want to bomb us with nuclear weapons, they just want to have a stockpile to feel safe??? As their neighbors Pakistan and India have some of their own, why not them is what they are probably thinking.

Isreal is going to lead us into WWIII before Iran does. If that ever happens, I promise it will have started in Israel.

[prymetyme]

You're right there, Bush wasn't the first (and won't be the last) when it comes to setting lofty goals to be completed by a following Administration.

I agree that that's certainly a hopefull number, but I believe he'll cut the deficit maybe not by half, but by 35% by 2009.

[Sapphire]

Hillary Clinton is not the worst person in the world.... there, I said it.To be honest, I don't see why people hate her so much. I don't like her at all, in fact the only Dem I actually like is Obama (but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before he does something to turn me away), but I think it's just sort of fun for people to Hillary-bash for some reason I can't understand. :confused: I'm genuinely curious about this.

I also really liked her lipstick last night, but I'm sure no one else will be interested in such things :)

[Sapphire]

There is little doubt that the Federal government knew that the evidence of WMD's in Iraq was tenuous, at best. The real question is how much did Bush know. I give him the benefit of the doubt, that no one ever told him that they didn't have evidence to support the claims. This is what's known as cold comfort.Groupthink. You surround yourself with people that think in the same manner that you do, and don't accept dissenting opinions. When something comes up for "debate", there's no real credit given to opposing arguments, and your opinion is just reinforced.

Also known as the "Britney Spears Effect" (Why won't someone tell that girl to stoppppppp??)

[prymetyme]

prymetyme, I noticed you live in Laguna Beach, I lived in Lake Forest for a few years before moving to Maryland. I know how it must be for you living in La La Land. The only advice I can give you, is to keep an open mind about most things, but don't waver on your core beliefs.
(

yeah, its wierd coming from two opposites, Laguna Beach and Salem Massachusetts (I dont permenetly live in LB, although i spend about 2 months there a year, because its where my family is from)

It's a bit of a culture shock traveling between these two places as often as I do, because I either get praised for wearing Bush memorabilia, or ragged on constantly for it.

I also agree with what you say on WMD's. Thats not enough evidence for war, but at the same time he might have jumped the gun because of fear's of terrorism. He was premature in going into Iraq but in 20 years I'll look back and think that the outcome was worth fighting for.

[Motterman]

Problem though is that you can't start a war based on circumstantial evidence. Bush exacerbated this by claiming to have the smoking gun, which of course ended up being essentially false evidence. The point being that if he's going to be so adamant about the threat posed by Saddam and going to somehow tie it all in to 9/11 (to which there was no connection), he should have made completely sure that it was correct. People felt deceived when it ended up being wrong, whatever the original motives may have been.

Do our methods of doing this make us more safe or less safe though? When in the process of going after the terrorists, we also manage to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians, I'm inclined to think the latter. I think we need to rethink the way we're doing this.

See, I never heard anybody say that Saddam had something to do with 9/11 though. Maybe I heard that Iraq had terrorist training camps or something... but that's it. Maybe links to the actual 9/11 attack were implied (I don't recall), but I would have supported removing Saddam simply because of the WMD's and the threat he imposed on his neighboring countries - as well as his own people. That's where the lack of credibility hurts Bush now, as I said. I'd be more apt to give him some leeway in finding these terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Iran and Syria if he hadn't have jumped the gun with Iraq.

The future of Iraq was always pretty murky, but after Hamas won those Palistinian elections.... :(

[Vermont Red]

He was premature in going into Iraq but in 20 years I'll look back and think that the outcome was worth fighting for.

Make sure you check with the families of the American and Iraqi victims to get their opinions.

[StrikerCW]

yeah, its wierd coming from two opposites, Laguna Beach and Salem Massachusetts (I dont permenetly live in LB, although i spend about 2 months there a year, because its where my family is from)

It's a bit of a culture shock traveling between these two places as often as I do, because I either get praised for wearing Bush memorabilia, or ragged on constantly for it.

I also agree with what you say on WMD's. Thats not enough evidence for war, but at the same time he might have jumped the gun because of fear's of terrorism. He was premature in going into Iraq but in 20 years I'll look back and think that the outcome was worth fighting for.
Why are you going to look back on this in a good light? What good could possibly come out? I will put 50 $ down on the fact that after we leave totally (100 years from now) a dictatorship will be set up, or a military/insurgent coup will occur and it will all be a waste of time.

[prymetyme]

Problem though is that you can't start a war based on circumstantial evidence. Bush exacerbated this by claiming to have the smoking gun, which of course ended up being essentially false evidence. The point being that if he's going to be so adamant about the threat posed by Saddam and going to somehow tie it all in to 9/11 (to which there was no connection), he should have made completely sure that it was correct. People felt deceived when it ended up being wrong, whatever the original motives may have been.




Do our methods of doing this make us more safe or less safe though? When in the process of going after the terrorists, we also manage to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians, I'm inclined to think the latter. I think we need to rethink the way we're doing this.


I think he also realizes that a mid-term election year is not the time to come out guns blazing with radical new proposals, especially when you've long ago used up your political capital.




This I remain highly skeptical about given that he wants to make the tax cuts permanent and continue spending on the war(s). The numbers don't seem to be adding up. Not that it matters to Bush since we'll have a new president in 2009 anyways.

I should add though that its great to see people your age taking part in and understanding how current events shape our lives. A lot of people, even older folks, want to ignore it all and believe it doesn't affect them, but everything going on in the news really does. It's good to realize that while you're young so hopefully by the time you get to vote, you'll be able to make decisions based on the information.

I for one believe that the Iraqi's and Afghans, want to fight for there freedom, and would die for it. Although I dont know that for a fact, if I put myself in there shoes and I joined either armys, I would want what was best for my respective country.

I agree with you here, Bush tends to make all these proposals on our debt, but the numbers dont always add up. This is his biggest problem right now. He's going to have to find out how to decrease the deficit using the numbers. But what he said in his speech last night shouldnt be taken to much to heart because it wasnt specific and the State of the Union is basically a pep rally.

[Vermont Red]

The future of Iraq was always pretty murky, but after Hamas won those Palistinian elections.... :(

When you give people the power to choose, they choose freedom. Or terror. The one flaw in the exportation of democracy; what if the people freely elect someone we don't like? D'oh!

[Motterman]

Isreal is going to lead us into WWIII before Iran does. If that ever happens, I promise it will have started in Israel.

Well, the Isrealis and Palestinians will have to come to some sort of accord, but we've been after peace in that region for thousands of years. I don't see it happening anytime soon...

...all the more reason to make sure that WMD's aren't available and/or used in such a hotbed of unrest.

[prymetyme]

Why are you going to look back on this in a good light? What good could possibly come out? I will put 50 $ down on the fact that after we leave totally (100 years from now) a dictatorship will be set up, or a military/insurgent coup will occur and it will all be a waste of time.

I think the War in Iraq, will bring a peaceful Iraq first off, with a democracy and a stable place in the middle east. Although right now it is up to the Iraqi's they need to stand up forthemselves and get it togather or we are doomed. I think we'll leave for the most part in the next 3 years. Dropping signifigant troop levels like Bush said is made by military personel not political leaders.
But again, weather it will be a dictatorship or insugent coup is up to the Iraqi's.

[Achtung]

I don't like her at all, in fact the only Dem I actually like is Obama (but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before he does something to turn me away)

He definitely seems like the great hope for politicians in this country. I actually went to his campaign headquarters before the election, mostly to pick up a couple of signs but just to see what was going on there. Cool people, they were very welcoming. Hopefully he doesn't screw anything up, he just seems so damn likeable and is an excellent speaker. His great accomplishment though was in getting a majority of the votes in southern Illinois--that almost never happens for a Democrat. Even if it was that nutjob Alan Keyes who the Republicans got to run against him. (Anyone remember the Simpsons where Sideshow Bob ran for mayor and before they introduce him, they open the wrong door and reveal a water cooler, to which the Springfield Republican Party members applaud? I honestly think they would have gotten more votes running a water cooler in place of Keyes.)

[prymetyme]

Make sure you check with the families of the American and Iraqi victims to get their opinions.

I have met Iraqi and Afghan war vets, and they say that they're glad to serve the country. Bush read a letter that a fallen soldier left behind last night and the soldier talked about how it was a honor to serve his soldiers and country. I believe this is how the majority of Iraqi war familys feel. I dont even want to start on Cindy Sheehan, who was arrested last night by the way.

[MtP07]

Donna Martin Graduates....Donna Martin Graduates... ;) :D