Man United NSR Politics thread

[StrikerCW]

you might be right but IMO from all the things that he had the chance


and btw clinton was on of my fav pres :)
Yes, I would love to see the big cigar again. :cool:

[SirManchester]

I don't buy the oil thing either. In fact, I haven't heard not one reasonable argument for our invasion if Iraq. Not one. Certainly not from our leadership. I'm still waiting (although yours aren't all that unreasonable, mht, I still don't see them as solid enough reasons.)

And with that, goodnight. ;)

An even more obvious reason is to distract us from the Bin-Laden hunt and 9/11 <---using it as a tool/motive to set up in the middle east and......

[mhtwins113]

I agree with your first two points, that they were certainly two of the most important reasons for the war.

But the oil just sticks out too much. Iraq has arguably the largest oil reserves in the world, larger even than Saudi Arabia. The plan was that the oil would be completely in US control at this time. Unfortunately, the oil isn't at this time due to the insurgency, and there are more pressing matters over there such as where the next IED attack will come from.

Of course back in the 80s, the plan was to make Iraq into the next Saudi Arabia. That is, a modern, relatively westernized, US-allied nation that could provide cheap oil to the west in exchange for protection for the unpopular leadership of the nation. Unfortunately, Saddam waffled, made unreasonable requests, and decided for kicks to invade Kuwait. Just think, if he'd gone along with the whole thing, we'd have pictures of Saddam and Bush holding hands in the White House Rose Garden. :)
The best part about this whole insurgency is that the parts of the country they are most prevalent in are- surprise, surprise- the Sunni areas and the Southeast cities with the largest oil reserves :eek: ! I mean, what are the odds of a such a complete coincidence ;) ?

Take from that what you will, makes me think that either, A) they are the smartest group of terrorists alive and know exactly where to be because they know that's what we want; or B) they want a foothold in those strategic areas should this ludicrous "rebellion" actually work out for them. Probably both.

[Achtung]

Again, I point out that we wouldn't need an ally in the region if not for our actions in the past (Reagan in Iran,

Well, to be fair, I think it was Eisenhower and Churchill who set things in motion in the 50s with the CIA plot to topple Mossadegh and replace him with the Shah.




and putting the Jews in Israel)

Didn't the British have more to do with the formation of Israel, since I think they occupied Palestine after WWII?




This I am not sure of, damn straight the gas is up now (of course it was 1.75 or so down here until Fvkcing Katrina..) you would think the oil would go down and it should anyways, then why is it not? I believe this may be down to the destruction of the towers in Iraq since the invasion. As many of them were set ablaze.

The paranoid anti-corporatocracy in me wants to talk about price fixing, but at the same time the unprecedented growth in demand from China and India can't be helping matters either.

[Achtung]

you might be right but IMO from all the things that he had the chance

He may have, but honestly at the time I think it might have been even harder to find bin Laden, since he was able to disappear more easily into the general population. There was neve a claim that bin Laden was in custody of the government at anytime, only that they could "offer him", whatever that meant. Plus at the time, the bigger terror threats in America were the "right-wing threats" in the vein of Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, and Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge). Those kinds of groups were far higher on the list of FBI priorities.




and btw clinton was on of my fav pres :)

Make sure you let them know if you visit England this fall. They all love Clinton there.

[mhtwins113]

A side note, on top of a Republican, I'm also an Arab. The whitest one alive, as those of you who have added me on facebook can attest, but an Arab nonetheless.

That being said, the opening of the Iraqi market to greater capitalism and imports has been a real boon to the economies of the surrounding countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (like these guys needed more money!).

For example, my uncle lives in Kuwait and owns a commercial retail business much like a Wal-Mart. Ever since the US established control of Iraq and allowed my uncle's company to expand into Iraq, his company's stock price has shot up 300%. He tells me that nearly every company that has been able to expand into Iraq has experienced the same type of rapid growth.

So that's one positive I guess, for those of you searching for them.

[StrikerCW]

Well, to be fair, I think it was Eisenhower and Churchill who set things in motion in the 50s with the CIA plot to topple Mossadegh and replace him with the Shah.

I honestly donot know much about that, however that did continue into the time of Reagan helping the Iraq versus Iran I would presume.




Didn't the British have more to do with the formation of Israel, since I think they occupied Palestine after WWII?

Yes, and also Palestine was their province (or whatever) of course. But With the way things have been since WWII between us, might as well been us too..




The paranoid anti-corporatocracy in me wants to talk about price fixing, but at the same time the unprecedented growth in demand from China and India can't be helping matters either.

True

[Numquam Moribimur]

Make sure you let them know if you visit England this fall. They all love Clinton there.


i am just going to say scooby doo, it seems to be a international credit card:D


i guess only one person got the Eddie izzard line there :cool:

[haven]

I absolutely despise Bush, but I would be a very happy man if he genuinely is committed to developing alternative fuels. The technology is not quite there, and the infrastructure will take years to develop, but developing something like a solar/hydrogen economy would improve matters with (a) foreign affairs, (b) the environment, and (c) the economy.

I'm skeptical now, though, but I'd love to be surprised.

[mhtwins113]

I absolutely despise Bush, but I would be a very happy man if he genuinely is committed to developing alternative fuels. The technology is not quite there, and the infrastructure will take years to develop, but developing something like a solar/hydrogen economy would improve matters with (a) foreign affairs, (b) the environment, and (c) the economy.

I'm skeptical now, though, but I'd love to be surprised.
You know what would also incredibly help those three things you stated? Cutting off illegal immigration. Unlike the moronic amnesty plan that Ted Kennedy, John McCain, and Bush are collaborating on.

[Achtung]

You know what would also incredibly help those three things you stated? Cutting off illegal immigration.

Sadly, it also seems to have affected our country's attitude towards totally legal immigration as well.

[StrikerCW]

That plan is jsut an excuse for them to not have to spend money to properly fund the border patrol. (although I can't be that mad, my ancestors came in semi-legally, then left and came back legally with children, so..)

[mhtwins113]

Sadly, it also seems to have affected our country's attitude towards totally legal immigration as well.
Well, also sadly, it's obvious that this was bound to happen. Most people are pretty firmly parked on one of two bandwagons, isolationism and open-borders. They fail to see that there can be a legitimate compromise of the two sides if the government would do its damn job and secure the borders.

[Achtung]

Well, also sadly, it's obvious that this was bound to happen. Most people are pretty firmly parked on one of two bandwagons, isolationism and open-borders. They fail to see that there can be a legitimate compromise of the two sides if the government would do its damn job and secure the borders.

Right, there's no reason it has to be like this. My relatives who want to come here and do honest work, the same as they do in India, shouldn't have to wait 15+ years for a green card, or have to endure loads of crap even for a tourist visa. I'm sure there are loads of applications that come in every year (hell, every day), but I just think there needs to be some more efficient way.

I guess my parents got lucky in that they came over right after quotas for immigration from Asia were increased.

[mhtwins113]

That plan is jsut an excuse for them to not have to spend money to properly fund the border patrol. (although I can't be that mad, my ancestors came in semi-legally, then left and came back legally with children, so..)
That plan is a pathetic and feeble attempt to rationalize the growing laziness and arrogance of our nation's citizens. They're trying to say that the immigrants are needed to do work that "Americans are not willing to do." Which sounds to me like pure BS that translates to "Many Americans are used to having everything given to them and have lost all connection with the concept of hard work, so we need to fill the blue-collar jobs somehow."

Here's how you get them off their asses:
1. Ship out the illegals we have through any means necessary and secure the borders, again through any means necessary, to keep out any new ones.

If you have the stones to get past the oh-so-predictable leftist cries of racism and elitism, which is undoubtedly the biggest barrier to any of this, then you can move onto step two...

2. Offer porn to the unemployed in lieu of a proper paycheck... heh just checking if you're still with me :). Now really...

2. Offer tax incentives for blue-collar jobs and kick people off welfare. Our economy is rapidly becoming service-based and white-collar rather than industrial and blue-collar, which is what this country's prosperity was founded on. If you can't find a job, take one as a gardener or a construction worker. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that line of work, no matter what kind of degree or level of education you have. Work is work and pay is pay. A tax incentive will stimulate people into noticing this.

3. Finally, maintain proper levels of LEGAL immigration. Don't think that if we accomplish the first two goals that we can just let in a bunch of legal immigrants to fill the spaces that illegals vacated. Work to strike a balance between immigration and population levels.

Absolutely fool-proof. I'm a freakin genius, I tell ya :p

EDIT: I should address the problem on the Mexican side of this as well.

It seems as if there's an unwritten agreement between Washington and Mexico City to allow as many Mexicans into this country as possible. Washington sees unemployment rates go down and more people contributing to local governments through sales taxes, Mexico sees its ex-citizens send money down to relatives, thus stimulating their economy with a larger cash flow.

Kill it all, I say. If we truly want to live up to the law and our constitutional ideals (not to mention common sense), then we have to retain the ability to control our borders.

And besides, there's also a national security question at stake here since there's been numerous reports of Arabs crossing over the border illegally, with the ones they nab clearly not coming here with good intentions if you know what I mean.

Of course, this all makes too much sense, meaning there's no way any part of the government would allow any of this to happen unfortunately. What we'll keep seeing is Bush bending over backwards to acquiesce any of Vicente Fox's demands for "civil rights" and "equality" for the law-breakers known as illegals running rampant all over the country.

[Achtung]

Well, sadly the answer isn't quite that easy as there are loads of rich people who love the benefits of cheap, immigrant (mostly Mexican) labor and who need to be catered to by the president. Your restaurant owners, farm co-ops, construction development companies, landscaping firms. In the end, everyone wants their cheap lettuce. Things would change drastically without them. And the migrant workers pay taxes on their wages too--albeit using fake SSNs, which means they don't benefit a penny from it. Sort of a loophole that enables the system and all of us to actually benefit from these illegal immigrants.

I'm not saying I really agree with the amnesty proposal, but it actually makes more sense than I used to think it did.

[Sapphire]

i am just going to say scooby doo, it seems to be a international credit card:D


i guess only one person got the Eddie izzard line there :cool:I have only one question for you: Cake or death??

[Motterman]

I used to be a Republican, I guess I still am registered as one. But now I just vote for candidates that I think will do the best job representing me. However, it's getting harder and harder to distinguish which one will end up sucking the least as my Representative, Senator, Mayor, Governor, or President.

I'm conservative about most things, particularly the "leave my ass alone and let me take care of myself" part. However, I recognize the need for the government to provide care and support for those who can't do that for themselves. There's too many in this country who can, and just choose not to though. :mad:

Education is in shambles and it's not getting any better any time soon, no matter how much money we throw at the system in place now. My kids are hopefully getting home-schooled or preferably private schooled should I be able to afford it.

I don't like Bush anymore, not that I was ever a big fan, but finding no WMD's in Iraq was quite disappointing. Dean is/was a nutter and Kerry wasn't that much better of an option at the time either.

I don't care if there's prayer in schools or the 10 Commandments at the courthouse. I do care if there are laws passed that force things that I don't believe in on me though. I hate Michael Newdow and the ACLU. I also hate Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell. There just seems to be no middle ground anymore...

The reason that the Republicans and Democrats need the middle so much to get elected, is that they're both beholden to awful people and groups, IMO.

I'd like to stay above all the in-fighting and debates that go on about national issues, but that's kinda arrogant and doesn't really help when you shut yourself off completely. I take each issue as they come, consider how it can affect me, if at all, and then stick with what I believe in... I'm open minded about alot of stuff though. But I'm suspicious of people who are either so far to one side of the political spectrum or the other, because they're usually informed of their "facts" by people who have their own agendas.

I also try and peruse the news from sources other that what's available in America, although not Al Jezeera. :rolleyes:

Oh well, I guess that's all I got for now.

Bush did ok on his speech, but it's not going to change anybody's preconceived ideas about the job he's done, or what's coming down the line. I'm sure that's all he was really aiming for though.

[StrikerCW]

You would think the education system would be a top priority for the country. If you have good teachers, it will go down the line and pay spades for the country in the end as adults are better educated.. etc. I think the two main problems right now are teacher pay, and general lack of support (or NCLB).

One thing to take note of though is that teachers are paid by the state (I believe) so that is down to the states not the national government, although they could earmark more funds for this they just don't.

On NCLB, the view that most of my HS teachers held was that it was absolute trash. I believe (could be wrong, but this is what my teacher told me) that the standardized testing applies to ALL students in the school. Including those with learning disabilities... I think you get the picture here. Tell me how much sense that makes?

[Vermont Red]

My favorite part of the speech, during the ten minutes that I could stomach, was the shot of Hillary Clinton subtly rolling her eyes and shaking her head during one of the applause breaks. I could read her thoughts perfectly.

"What a dumbass. Oh wait, the cameras on me. I can't look like I'm dissing the president. Yes I can. What a dumbass."

As others have pointed out, our current system requires that candidates on both sides pander to the extremes even as they court the middle. This leads to both parties taking positions on issues that are completely non-sensical (no restrictions on guns, no restrictions on abortions).

Bush won the last election for one simple reason. When it came down to it, in their heart of hearts, the voters on the fence felt that they would be safer if Bush were president. (Now is the threat real, well...)