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Dark Savante
26 Jan 2006, 06:48 AM
I watched the game again last night and on review you see quite a few things you definitely don't pick up on in the heat of a live match.

Rooney was absolutely knackered at the end of the game. He and Fletcher looked like they were about to die. They were definitely our hardest working players yesterday, but the amount of games they are playing at the age that they are is getting quite dangerous.

For anyone who knows about burn-out and young players in football, this is something I think we'd all agree upon. It is not healthy for players of these ages to be putting in such a work-load for such a prolonged period of time. Johno was pointing to Rooney's tiredness as early as the Christmas period, the necessity to play him continously in the midst of a crisis is definitely there, but there is adefinite decline in the lad's game of late. The pundits give him MoM regardless because his workrate is simply extraordinary - he has to be the hardest working player at the club since Keano's prime!! - but he is defintiely not looking as sharp in and around the box as he was 2months ago. It's not a loss of form, definitely not, he just looks at times like he is too tired to focus at the end of a run from deep. It can be evidenced in his close control (randomly the ball getting away from him, or him over running it K.R style) his shooting (he is not hitting the target with the frequency I associate with him) and his general short burst acceleration is not 'there' for him when he needs it right now.

A few of my friends have mentioned it of late, but yesterday was definitely the first time I thought it was in evidence for almost the whole of the 2nd half and most definitely at full time. Rooney is incredibly fit, usually at FT no matter how hard a game has been he is not out of puff and catches his breath easily that's why it stood out just how over-worled the lad is right now. My concerns before Saha was fit and Rossi had not even got on the pitch for the 1st team was that Ruud and Rooney were going to be asked to play too many games. Since then Saha has returned and is not doing too badly, Rossi is still on the periphery, but for Rooney to get rest that doesn't matter. Simply put Saha in for a few games and give Rooney a well earned breather.

Ronaldo has had a good amount of time off because of his red against the bitters and the same goes for Park with his lay off, those two should come back extremely fresh and ready. I think Rooney should see some bench time now that our major games are out of the way and he's done what we've asked of him. The manager knows perfectly well how to handle players and avoid burnout...usually, but in these extenuating circumstances (the race for 2nd, his job on the line, the midfield crisis) is Rooney going to get the rest that he needs to get that magic back in boots?

Fletcher needs a rest too imo, but I think we'll see his chance for a breather come when some of the other midfielders return. But for now, I think Rooney is in dire need of a little break - we shouldn't be relying so heavily on a 20yr old anway, right....? :eek:

GrodZilla
26 Jan 2006, 06:55 AM
No we shouldent be relying so much on him but the sad truth is that we are right now. He's the engine ang creativity of our team, we are worryingly plain we he has an off day, noone else has the ability(or at least havn't shown it) to control te game. He's utterly vital to us, especially now that Paul is out.

I really hope that he gets a rest because Ronaldo/Park should be able to cover at right wing and Ruud/Saha/Rossi up front. But I don't think that we'll see him getting to many games of, there are no easy games for us anymore and as I have pointed out regularily SAF is getting increasingly reluctant to play anything other than his strongest side unless injuries force his hand...

omar_mufc
26 Jan 2006, 07:17 AM
i think burn-out aint an issue with rooney, because his body is that of a 35 year old veteran....

however, i agree, he may need a rest from time to time, to keep him fresh and ready, maybe we're about to see rossi????

johno
26 Jan 2006, 08:26 AM
Yeah... it's getting dangerous now. When a player is this tired it can lead to not just burnout but also injury. I don't think that other than the Wolves match there are any clearcut matches in which to rest Rooney outright coming up. However, I would suggest that he be subbed off in games we lead and also be on the bench against sides like Pompey and Fulham.

benni...
26 Jan 2006, 08:38 AM
Apart from against Wolves, when else could we afford to rest him?

listen_up_fergie
26 Jan 2006, 08:47 AM
Yeah, I sure hope Rooney won't be on the starting lineup against Wolves because of all the injuries. Fletcher is probably going to play, which is probably not going to be a great idea considering the number of games he'll be playing. Both Rooney and Fletcher do a lot of running on the pitch, so they need a reprieve from time to time. I really think we should recall Liam Miller if Fergie can't sign someone like Vogel or Gravesen on loan.

Dark Savante
26 Jan 2006, 09:22 AM
I'm sorry, but Rooney shouldn't have to play for us to win against smaller teams. The big difference this year compared to last is that overall Fergie is putting out much stronger line-ups than he did last year, but the key word is 'overall' not just Wayne. The team should be able to function for a few games without him, At least have him on the bench.

Burn-out, even for a man-boy, is a very, very serious issue. Our (and Fergie's personal) cricumstances are pretty desperate what with the midfield crisis and his job being on the line, plus the fact we're probably going to go to the wire for the 2nd auto CL spot place, but playing a depleted player brings with it its own risks, as Johno said, injuries being paramount.

I've never seen Rooney as physically drained as he was after yesterday's game and that came as big surprise to me...then again, this is the first time in his career he has had so much weight on his shoulders and been asked to be the talismann of the team for nearly every game we play..

My concerns expand to Fletcher as well who is not much older. But I firmly believe he'll get the necessary rest as soon as possible...but Rooney...? He's the managers trump card...can he do without him for a few games, or have we gone past that point now? :(

MtP07
26 Jan 2006, 09:40 AM
Our schedule for the next month:

Sun 29/1 16:00 Wolves FAC4 A
Wed 1/2 19:45 Blackburn Rovers FAPL A
Sat 4/2 17:15 Fulham FAPL H
Sat 11/2 17:15 Portsmouth FAPL A
Sat 18/2 15:00 FA Cup 5th Round FAC5
Sun 26/2 15:00 Wigan Athletic CCF N

Next week is the only mid-week game we'll have for the next month, that should help out to rest all of our players, Rooney in particular. Bolded games I think we should be able to get by with Rooney on the bench...hopefully we won't have to call on him during those matches.

Dark Savante
26 Jan 2006, 09:47 AM
Our schedule for the next month:

Sun 29/1 16:00 Wolves FAC4 A
Wed 1/2 19:45 Blackburn Rovers FAPL A
Sat 4/2 17:15 Fulham FAPL H
Sat 11/2 17:15 Portsmouth FAPL A
Sat 18/2 15:00 FA Cup 5th Round FAC5
Sun 26/2 15:00 Wigan Athletic CCF N

Next week is the only mid-week game we'll have for the next month, that should help out to rest all of our players, Rooney in particular. Bolded games I think we should be able to get by with Rooney on the bench...hopefully we won't have to call on him during those matches.
He's banned for the PL game against Blackburn right? If so, and we dont use him on Sunday. That'll be a great thing for us..if we could rest him for Fulham at home as well.. perfect and hopefully that'd see him recharged.

johno
26 Jan 2006, 09:56 AM
He's banned for the PL game against Blackburn right? If so, and we dont use him on Sunday. That'll be a great thing for us..if we could rest him for Fulham at home as well.. perfect and hopefully that'd see him recharged.

yes, that's right... anything like 14-20 days without starting a match will do wonders for his fitness.

benni...
26 Jan 2006, 10:03 AM
Guys, also dont forget, resting players can have adverse affects on their form.

johno
26 Jan 2006, 10:07 AM
Rooney's not playing at his best anyway and a dip in form is unlikey, but even if it did occur it would be a small price to pay for avoiding burnout and injury.

DutchFootballRulez
26 Jan 2006, 10:08 AM
Knowing when to rest players, who are already dipping in form, is a part of Management 101. I think Fergie teaches that class on occasion.

MtP07
26 Jan 2006, 10:10 AM
Guys, also dont forget, resting players can have adverse affects on their form.

So you'd rather him burn-out, have a high risk of injury, etc than lose his form???

Achtung
26 Jan 2006, 10:40 AM
Burnout for someone like him is extremely important to look out for. I recall pointing out something similar earlier this year, that there was a danger of overusing him and that we needed to make sure he gets the proper rest. While there are a lot of things about him that make him appear to be in his prime, there are other things he needs to develop, and by keeping him as active as you would any other 20-year-old, you allow his body to grow and recover properly.

I agree 100% that we need to see Ruud and Saha more together to give Rooney rest. Saha looks to have recovered not just from his injury but his form. Rossi is more than capable of coming off the bench to provide a spark. Hopefully Park and Ronaldo will return just fine very soon to add some midfield depth as well, so that shouldn't be an issue that forces Rooney to play.

Achtung
26 Jan 2006, 10:44 AM
Ah ha! Here it is, from over four months ago. For once I beat DS to the punch. :D

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6095560&#post6095560

MtP07
26 Jan 2006, 10:49 AM
Ah ha! Here it is, from over four months ago. For once I beat DS to the punch. :D


Aww, cut DS some slack, he's been busy with Algebra homework and decorating his room with Rossi posters... :p ;)

Dark Savante
26 Jan 2006, 11:05 AM
Ah ha! Here it is, from over four months ago. For once I beat DS to the punch. :D

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6095560&#post6095560
LOL!! wth! is you competing wit' me? j/k :p

That's a very good post btw. The date corroberates your... 'story' :p lol , unfortunately it is definitely coming to pass right now. It's much harder to identify with a player like Rooney because he's 'all over the place' and that wouldn't change unless someone shot him with a tranc' dart , but the subtlety in his game is paying the price of too many games.

Dark Savante
26 Jan 2006, 11:06 AM
Aww, cut DS some slack, he's been busy with Algebra homework and decorating his room with Rossi posters... :p ;)
I cannot believe I'm taking ...stick...from someone whose alter-ego is named deepthroat!!! :D

Achtung
26 Jan 2006, 11:20 AM
LOL!! wth! is you competing wit' me? j/k :p

Just having fun with ya. ;)

Mainly, it was just that its been something I've been thinking about for a while now, most of this season really. As vital as Rooney is to the team, people really do forget how young he is and that in truth his body is still growing and his skillset is still developing. It would be maybe the biggest shame of all if he had to leave the highest level early as Gazza or Best did. I don't think any manager is better than Fergie at managing young talent, and hopefully he knows what he is doing as Rooney. I hope he develops him for the future, and doesn't see him simply as a way to cement his legacy as manager.